1943 Navy shooting revolvers

[Rye Miles #13621]

[Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372]

That's one excited group of shooters...

[Cholla]

2 hours ago, Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372 said:

That's one excited group of shooters...

They are probably thinking about how much trouble it will be to carry those stands around while on watch.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

1 hour ago, Cholla said:

They are probably thinking about how much trouble it will be to carry those stands around while on watch.

OR:
"If it comes to having to use this on board the ship, we're REALLY in trouble!!

[Pat Riot]

I have never seen a rack / stand like that for shooting a handgun. Weird. 
Maybe they have never fired a gun before and the instructors do not want them freaking out over the massive recoil and report from the mighty .38 M&P… 

[Rye Miles #13621]

10 minutes ago, Pat Riot said:

I have never seen a rack / stand like that for shooting a handgun. Weird. 
Maybe they have never fired a gun before and the instructors do not want them freaking out over the massive recoil and report from the mighty .38 M&P… 

Maybe it’s there to rest their arms in between shots?😂🙄

Edited October 14 by Rye Miles #13621

[Alpo]

I'm just surprised that they were teaching them to shoot.

 

All four of those men are black.

 

https://www.history.navy.mil/browse-by-topic/diversity/african-americans/chronology.html

 

"May 1940: Jim Crow Navy: When Germany invaded France in May 1940, only 4,007 out of the U.S. Navy’s 215,000 personnel were Black—2.3% of the force. Most of these sailors served as mess attendants, officers’ cooks, and stewards."

 

1 June 1942: Black Sailors enlisted into General Service: In January 1942, Secretary Frank Knox ordered the Navy’s General Board to devise a plan for the recruitment of 5,000 Blacks and to suggest a wider variety of duties. The General Board was responsible for studying all aspects of naval policy and making recommendations to the Secretary of the Navy based on its observations. After meeting, the board concluded that Blacks should be restricted to serving as messmen because there were few non-rated billets on patrol ships and integrating Blacks and whites in non-rated billets on larger ships would cause friction and lower efficiency. The board also concluded that “if restricting [Blacks] to the messman branch was discrimination, it was consistent with discriminatory practices against [Blacks] and citizens of Asian descent throughout the United States”

 

"On 1 February 1943, more than two thirds of the 26,909 African American sailors were messmen."

 

17 March 1944: Golden 13: The first group of African Americans commissioned as officers (12 were commissioned ensigns and one as a warrant officer) in the United States Navy, known as “The Golden Thirteen”

 

 

 

In 1943 most of the blacks in the United States Navy worked in the galley or the wardroom.

[Rye Miles #13621]

23 minutes ago, Alpo said:

1943 most of the blacks in the United States Navy worked in the galley or the wardroom.

Key word here is MOST, it doesn't say ALL. 

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

In 1971 I was in MI and they issued me a snub nose .38.  It was not a little S&W Model 36 either.  It was some butt ugly full size six shot .38 with a short barrel.

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

those stands , look like that secure the pistol keeping it pointed down range 

 

 CB 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

The Navy does better with guns that measure the bores in inches.  I had this discussion with a CPO at NWS Seal Beach in 1974.  He asked me to teach him how to shoot, but after a dozen sessions he still couldn't stick his pistol in a bucket of water and make a splash.

 

We stayed in touch until he died about 15 years ago.  Nice feller.

[Rip Snorter]

Got to think this was a practical joke on those sailors back then.  Someone find another photo of the process.  Granted, the majority of the Navy uses much larger guns with great effect.

[Cactus Jack Calder]

March, 1965 I enlisted in the US Naval Reserve. 
Total obligation upon enlistment

1 year training

2 years active duty

3 years reserve duty.

 

1st year includes:

2 week “Cruise” on a ship tied up to the pier in New Haven, CT.

2 weeks Boot Camp at Great Lakes Naval Training Center.

 

Now the story. at boot camp we were given one session of instruction on small arms.

This consisted of a demonstration of how to not break your thumb while loading a 30 cal carbine, apparently known as the thumb breaker. Then 12 shots with a 22 while lying prone . They gave us a bolt action rifle made for a box magazine, with a leather sling, no magazine and a wooden block with 12 shells inserted in holes. The procedure was open the bolt insert one shell in the chamber, close the bolt, aim and shoot. DO NOT CROSS THE FIRING LINE! One recruit 2 or 3 slots down dropped the shell through the action to the deck (notice how I used the correct term for a floor?). He then reached across the line to retrieve the shell. The Marine Instructor (yes to the best of my memory he was a Marine) called the recruits attention to the fact that he had CROSSED THE FIRING LINE, at the top of his vocal capacity and must NEVER DO THAT AGAIN, MAGGOT! Of course this hapless fellow followed up with a repeat of the action, for which he was chastised again. On the third incident the Instructor grabbed the recruit unhooked the sling from the rifle dragged him across the firing line and marched him down the entire length of the line, without calling a CEASE FIRE.
As I was just beginning to take up the slack on the trigger a tan glad leg planted itself right in front of my muzzle. It still amazes me that I managed to back off in time and not shoot that Marine right in the ankle. If I hadn’t it probably would have been hard to explain how the Instructor was walking in front of a live firing line.

 

CJ

 

[Dr. Zook]

6 hours ago, Rip Snorter said:

Got to think this was a practical joke on those sailors back then.  Someone find another photo of the process.  Granted, the majority of the Navy uses much larger guns with great effect.

that is true Sir:

 

16-inch/50-caliber Mark 7

The main gun of the Iowa-class battleships, this gun was 50 calibers long, with a barrel length of 66.7 ft (20.3 m). It weighed 239,000 lb (108 t) without the breech and 267,900 lb (121.5 t) with the breech. The gun fired projectiles weighing from 1,900 to 2,700 lb (860 to 1,220 kg). The muzzle velocity for armor-piercing projectiles was 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s) with a range of up to 24 mi (39 km).

 

but did anyone know about these USN Main gun design prototype:

18-inch/48-caliber Mark 1

Designed in 1920, this gun was designed to fire a 2,900 lb (1,315 kg) AP shell at a muzzle velocity of 2,700 ft/s (823 m/s). However, the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 prohibited the development of guns larger than 16-inches, so the prototype was converted to a 16-inch gun.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

After the Cole disaster the navy contracted with many firearms school to send sailors for small arms training.

[Pat Riot]

4 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

After the Cole disaster the navy contracted with many firearms school to send sailors for small arms training.

Many Navy ratings (job classifications) aren’t trained in the use of small arms if their job or duties don’t require it. 
Some ships’ commands will have anyone small arms trained that is interested or if the Line Officers want their minions trained. Usually this occurs when ammo is coming up on a rotation date or when pulling into a Weapons Station for replenishment. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

8 hours ago, Dr. Zook said:

that is true Sir:

 

16-inch/50-caliber Mark 7

The main gun of the Iowa-class battleships, this gun was 50 calibers long, with a barrel length of 66.7 ft (20.3 m). It weighed 239,000 lb (108 t) without the breech and 267,900 lb (121.5 t) with the breech. The gun fired projectiles weighing from 1,900 to 2,700 lb (860 to 1,220 kg). The muzzle velocity for armor-piercing projectiles was 2,500 ft/s (760 m/s) with a range of up to 24 mi (39 km).

 

but did anyone know about these USN Main gun design prototype:

18-inch/48-caliber Mark 1

Designed in 1920, this gun was designed to fire a 2,900 lb (1,315 kg) AP shell at a muzzle velocity of 2,700 ft/s (823 m/s). However, the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 prohibited the development of guns larger than 16-inches, so the prototype was converted to a 16-inch gun.

And if you think those are big just wait until you see loading dies and presses and such.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

5 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

And if you think those are big just wait until you see loading dies and presses and such.

16” shells don’t use dies, but I bet you knew that.

[Eyesa Horg]

20 hours ago, Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001 said:

those stands , look like that secure the pistol keeping it pointed down range 

 

 CB 

Yup, keeps them from wanting to turn it on its side.

Edited October 15 by Eyesa Horg
Missing word!

[bgavin]

I don't see hearing protection in that setup.

 

[Rip Snorter]

At this point in history these sailors were most likely cooks, stewards, coal heavers or messmen.  Countless served heroically in the service outside those roles, but  that is what it was.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

At one post we ran a "familiarization" program for Intelligence Corps personnel who were allowed to carry revolvers.   We had a scale model of a Colt 38 Special about 10xs normal size so that we could show attendees how the revolver worked.  We never had anything like the stands pictured above, but my guess is they were used to demonstrate the proper hold and aiming of revolvers.  Being low man on the Totem Pole, I must have cleaned those revolvers hundreds of times. 

[Trailrider #896]

I bet those .38 Spl revolvers shown in the photo were some of the ones the Air Force used for sidearm qualifications in 1966. They were marked, "U.S.Navy" on the barrel. Scared the hell out of me. No NOT the recoil, as I owned and regularly shot a Ruger Flat Top .44 Mangle-em and my Dad's M1911A1. No, I was afraid I was going to kill somebody on either side of me because the gun was shaving jacket material so badly. After two shots, I cleared the weapon, put it down and went to the range NCO, and asked him if I could use my own gun, as long as it would shoot issue .38 Spl. Ball (FMJ!). He sad, sure, so I went downtown and bought a S&W M19, which I used to qualify Expert. 

 

The only aiming training the Air Force gave me, I never found out how I did...AND DIDN'T WANT TO, since it was targeting Minuteman I ICBM's!  Fortunately, we never had to find out. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

2 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

I bet those .38 Spl revolvers shown in the photo were some of the ones the Air Force used for sidearm qualifications in 1966. They were marked, "U.S.Navy" on the barrel. Scared the hell out of me. No NOT the recoil, as I owned and regularly shot a Ruger Flat Top .44 Mangle-em and my Dad's M1911A1. No, I was afraid I was going to kill somebody on either side of me because the gun was shaving jacket material so badly. After two shots, I cleared the weapon, put it down and went to the range NCO, and asked him if I could use my own gun, as long as it would shoot issue .38 Spl. Ball (FMJ!). He sad, sure, so I went downtown and bought a S&W M19, which I used to qualify Expert. 

 

The only aiming training the Air Force gave me, I never found out how I did...AND DIDN'T WANT TO, since it was targeting Minuteman I ICBM's!  Fortunately, we never had to find out. 

Was it just the gun you were using shaving lead ? I doubt all of them were. Did they check it out? Why didn’t they just give another one? Sorry for all the questions but it just seems weird. 

[watab kid]

lets see , in 43 the navy was issueing the victory revolver to flyers in 38spcl , do you suppose they got to shoot those ? or were they shooting the older M1909 in 45colt or the hewer M1918 in 45acp ? or were they handed a 22cal S%W pr colt revolver ?

[Alpo]

They are Smith & Wessons, and appear to be a 4-inch k-frame.

 

So that lets out the 1909, the 1917 (not 18) or any type of Colt. They made an M&P in 22, but they made very few of them - probably less than a thousand.

 

Adding all that up and they are 38 Special M&Ps.  Whether victory or not, though, can't be told from the picture. By 1943 they had been making the M&P for 44 years. The odds are pretty good that the Navy had some.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

An alternative to teaching sailors how to use firearms is to have a squad of marines on every ship.

[Rye Miles #13621]

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/v-is-for-victory-the-smith-wesson-victory-model-revolver/

[Trailrider #896]

19 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Was it just the gun you were using shaving lead ? I doubt all of them were. Did they check it out? Why didn’t they just give another one? Sorry for all the questions but it just seems weird. 

Don't know, and I told the range NCO about it, so as far as I was concerned it was his responsibility to check them out. There were only two times when I was required to be armed, and in one instance, it was to carry a piece of sensitive equipment out to a launch facility where some tests were being run. I was given a snub-nose .38 Spl. revolver, with ball ammo. It was at night, and I was alone in the vehicle. Had I run into any potential enemies, they would, no doubt have outranged that POS by hundreds of yards. I made a good show of checking to see the gun was loaded, strapped it on, got into the pickup truck and drove off the base. As soon as I got a ways away, I stopped the truck, took off the snubbie, unloaded it, and reached under the seat where my own S&W M19 was, loaded with .357 HP's, and strapped it on. Being a revolver, I figured nobody would question it until I got back to the base to turn in the snubbie. No problems.

[Black Angus McPherson]

23 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

I bet those .38 Spl revolvers shown in the photo were some of the ones the Air Force used for sidearm qualifications in 1966. They were marked, "U.S.Navy" on the barrel. Scared the hell out of me. No NOT the recoil, as I owned and regularly shot a Ruger Flat Top .44 Mangle-em and my Dad's M1911A1. No, I was afraid I was going to kill somebody on either side of me because the gun was shaving jacket material so badly. After two shots, I cleared the weapon, put it down and went to the range NCO, and asked him if I could use my own gun, as long as it would shoot issue .38 Spl. Ball (FMJ!). He sad, sure, so I went downtown and bought a S&W M19, which I used to qualify Expert. 

 

The only aiming training the Air Force gave me, I never found out how I did...AND DIDN'T WANT TO, since it was targeting Minuteman I ICBM's!  Fortunately, we never had to find out. 

 

Newly hired as a Police Officer I was issued an old Civil Defense S&W .38 Model ?10? with a 4" pencil barrel for use while in the academy.  Being a "gun guy" I wanted to try it before I turned it over to the academy to be locked away for my use on the range.  Lucky I did.  The darn thing would only fire 5 times out of 6.  I'm not sure why, but I knew I sure as heck didn't want to have to qualify with it.  So, they issued me a different old Civil Defense S&W .38 model 10? to use.  Well, I was definitely going to try this one out before turning it over to the academy.  It, too, would only fire 5 times out of 6.  The reason being that the cylinder would only turn 5 times out of 6.  I ended up using my Nickel plated S&W Model 15 at the academy.  It was kinda flashy, and drew some attention, but I fired the only perfect score on the range with it.  Unfortunately it wasn't on qualification day.  IIRC I scored a respectable 295/300 and came in second to a 297/300.  (<<<old man brag)

 

Angus