Which modern cartridge works best for BP/APP in a 1873 rifle?

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

I understand "best" is subjective, in this case mostly looking at a mix of reduced blow by and reliability  

From what I have read, from best to worst they are:

38 spl (with brass cases and probably a mag tube sleeve)

44 spl

32-20 (with a mag tube sleeve and maybe some bolt work

45 Colt (maybe better with annealing or  with reformed 44-40 cases)

 

Is that about right?

 

Looking at replacing a 16" Rossi 92 bought in haste 

Edited April 10 by Dilli GaHoot Galoot

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

Best results are with the cartridges that Winchester developed for the rifle:  .44 WCF (.44-40), .38 WCF (.38-40) and .32 WCF (.32-20).

 

Of the three, the .44-40 (rifles and ammo/components) is the most readily available.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE for Abe E.S.

 

I would add however, for your chosen propellant, 44 spl and 45 Colt will probably require Annealing to eliminate Blow-By/Fouling.  I am also a fan of reforming 44-40 Brass for the same purpose.  44-40 Brass works very well indeed.  An 1873 can be had in 32-20.  Might be a "special order" though.  45 Schofield can also be considered for the 45 rifle, but will also benefit from Annealing.

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

Any of ya'll ever experience that thing when you keep seeing an ad in a magazine over and over and over till your sick of seeing it, but then one day you decide you want to contact the company in the ad and no matter how hard you look you can not find it again to save you life?

Well, the opposite happened to me just now   Last night all I could find were the 38/44 spl/45Colt's and a few comments on the 44-40's, but this morning it's like the world flipped and I can find 44-40's (and even a couple 32-20's!) with no trouble.

[Krazy Kajun]

On the subject of 45 Colt annealing.....does it really help that much?  I have a rifle in that caliber and have only shot smokeless ammo from it and there is definitely blow by on it. 

 

Kajun

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

6 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

45 Colt annealing.....does it really help that much? 

Helps quite a bit - but not as much as blowing out .44-40 cases.  

 

As does a heavy powder charge and a heavy bullet.  Both of which are bad for high speed gallery shooting. 

 

The discontinued Redding dual ring sizer die also helps quite a bit, and is the easiest to get started doing!

 

good luck, GJ 

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

If you go with a .45 for bp use Winchester brass. Although I'm a fan of Starline for everything else, Winchester seems softer, thinner than Starline and seals better.

[Preacherman]

44-40 AND annealing = no blowback. You just gotta clean the barrel. Like the others said, 38-40 & 32-20 too!

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

Best results are with the cartridges that Winchester developed for the rifle:  .44 WCF (.44-40), .38 WCF (.38-40) and .32 WCF (.32-20).

 

Of the three, the .44-40 (rifles and ammo/components) is the most readily available.

 

THIS ^^^

 

Right behind these is .38 / .357

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I shoot everything I own with APP with no issues. 

My main cartridge is 44 special. 

No need to Anneal the cases .

Works just fine .

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Modern cartridge, .38 spl I know a few guys that shoot BP with cartridge.

[Dead_Head]

I am annealing my .357 Mag cases and they work great.

[Seth Bradford]

7 hours ago, Dilli GaHoot Galoot said:

I understand "best" is subjective, in this case mostly looking at a mix of reduced blow by and reliability  

From what I have read, from best to worst they are:

38 spl (with brass cases and probably a mag tube sleeve)

44 spl

32-20 (with a mag tube sleeve and maybe some bolt work

45 Colt (maybe better with annealing or  with reformed 44-40 cases)

 

Is that about right?

 

Looking at replacing a 16" Rossi 92 bought in haste 

I use a 38-40 with a 38 special as my backup. I’d choose 38 off the list you posted. 

[Sedalia Dave]

I'm shooting both .38 and .357 with a compressed load of BP and don't have any issues with excessive blow back in my R92. Bullet weights run from 130 to 158

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

37 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

I'm shooting both .38 and .357 with a compressed load of BP and don't have any issues with excessive blow back in my R92. Bullet weights run from 130 to 158

 

I was dumb and got a 16" R92, it cycles 357 mag just fine, but only holds 8, I can get 9 38 spl in (which I could live with) but it doesn't cycle them well at all.  From what I have read there are smiths that *might* be able to get it to run 38's but some just don't no matter what.    I have tried most things you can find recommended and the next step would be sending it off, but at some point it should just be allowed to live it's life as what it is and get replaced with a better tool for the job

 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 minute ago, Dilli GaHoot Galoot said:

 

I was dumb and got a 16" R92, it cycles 357 mag just fine, but only holds 8, I can get 9 38 spl in (which I could live with) but it doesn't cycle them well at all.  From what I have read there are smiths that *might* be able to get it to run 38's but some just don't no matter what.    I have tried most things you can find recommended and the next step would be sending it off, but at some point it should just be allowed to live it's life as what it is and get replaced with a better tool for the job

 

 

You will never get a 16" 38/357 R92 to work properly for CAS. Even with an action job you will never get it to hold more than 8 rounds and cycle properly. Watch a shooter spend a lot of time and money trying to make one work. Eventually he gave up and got a rifle better suited to CAS.

 

You can make a R92 with a 20" barrel work very well for CAS. I've been shooting one since I started and it runs flawlessly after a proper action job and ammo of the correct OAL.

 

I am by no means a top shooter. I usually finish middle of the pack. However starting with rifle staged and hands on hat I can shoot two identical 5 shot sweeps in about 5 seconds. Which is not too shabby for an old fat man that doesn't practice. 

[Sedalia Dave]

22 minutes ago, Dilli GaHoot Galoot said:

 

I was dumb and got a 16" R92, it cycles 357 mag just fine, but only holds 8, I can get 9 38 spl in (which I could live with) but it doesn't cycle them well at all.  From what I have read there are smiths that *might* be able to get it to run 38's but some just don't no matter what.    I have tried most things you can find recommended and the next step would be sending it off, but at some point it should just be allowed to live it's life as what it is and get replaced with a better tool for the job

 

 

That 92 loaded with .357 magnums will make a great truck gun.

[Bull Skinner]

44-40, 38-40, 32-20 are the best, in that order, in rifle.  38 and 357 are Ok in pistol. Everything else, a distant 2nd. I load them all. The worst by far is 45 Colt.

[Jackson Haller]

44-40 and 38-40; everything else is a very distant second in a rifle.  Those Winchester designers and engineers of the 1860s and 70's had the right idea when they came up with the bottle neck 44-40 cartridge for the '73 Winchester.

As for brass today, I  would try to go with Winchester brass in 44-40; a bit thinner and seals a little better than Starline.  Avoid CBC and R-P; trust me!

No need to anneal with 44-40 or 38-40; they'll work just fine and keep the receiver very clean. After shooting them, dump them in a bucket of dish soap and water to deactivate any left over fouling/powder, rinse, air dry and tumble with your favorite polish, then reload.

 

Now with revolvers, it's a bit different in that you can use 45 colt and 44 special/44 mag with black powder.  I wouldn't bother annealing either,  just realize clean up on the recoil shield and in the pawl/hand slot and hammer area is going to take a little longer than if you used a 44-40 revolver!

 

I would also try to find real black powder as opposed to subs and use lubes and cleaners on the firearms made for BP, like Ballistol and Bore Butter.

 

Edited April 11 by Jackson Haller

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

This is my cleaner for black powder fouling:

 

 

I lube with Ballistol after the firearm dries.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Krazy Kajun  

 

Yes it does.  Annealing 45 Colt cases will in most cases, completely eliminate Blow-By.  Heavy Bullets/Powder charges will only mitigate some of the Blow-By.  The biggest reward, by far, is when shooting Black Powder and Subs.  I anneal and I also use 44-40 cases fire formed to 45 Colt.

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

That 92 loaded with .357 magnums will make a great truck gun.

 

Exactly what I will use it for if I can figure out a way to get a new rifle without selling it

6 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I know a few guys that shoot BP with cartridge.

 

Also something I'm thinking of 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

You will never get a 16" 38/357 R92 to work properly for CAS. Even with an action job you will never get it to hold more than 8 rounds and cycle properly.

This statement may generally true but a new shooter in my club has a 16” rifle that she likes, so we worked with it a little.  Bought a stainless follower and new spring from Steve’s Gunz and as an experiment we trimmed the way-too-long factory magazine spring.  The rifle will now hold ten .38 Special cartridges with a 110gr TCFP bullet at a OAL of 1.44”.  Although ‘92s usually run better with longer cartridges, this particular rifle will run the ones I described.  We got lucky on this one, perhaps, but I no longer say “can’t” or “never”.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

New rifle - go with the 38/40. Great BP caliber legal in all classes.  Lighter bullet for recoil recovery.   You have a big hole and smaller bullet for the funnel effect.  Cases can be made easily from 44/40.  

Paired up with a couple of 38/40 dual conversion  40 S&W pistols    Cowboy!

[slow poke gear]

I have used black powder in 45 colt, 357, and 44-40 rifles, I got the least amount of blow by from the 44-40. I tried annealing the 38, and 45 brass but still got blow by which dirtys up the action then they get hard to work. The thin neck of the 44-40 expands well and seals the chamber from blow by. My normal clean up on my 44-40s is open action, put funnel in barrel, pour hot water down,  then run a Murphys oil rag down the barrel(50% Murphy oil 50%rubbing achahol), oil outside and done. Takes about 5 mins. 38s, and 45s I needed to disassemble the action.

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

3 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

 

You will never get a 16" 38/357 R92 to work properly for CAS. Even with an action job you will never get it to hold more than 8 rounds and cycle properly.

This statement may generally true but a new shooter in my club has a 16” rifle that she likes, so we worked with it a little.  Bought a stainless follower and new spring from Steve’s Gunz and as an experiment we trimmed the way-too-long factory magazine spring.  The rifle will now hold ten .38 Special cartridges with a 110gr TCFP bullet at a OAL of 1.44”.  Although ‘92s usually run better with longer cartridges, this particular rifle will run the ones I described.  We got lucky on this one, perhaps, but I no longer say “can’t” or “never”.

 

From what I have read each R92 is a law unto itself and can be stubborn as an old mule!  Mine is an older pre-safety one with the stainless follower and I've done the shimming, smoothing, trimming and chanting with mesquite smoke all for naught when it comes to getting anything that short to run.  

 

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

I have shot 45 colt for the last 20 years, switched to black powder about 15 years ago. Yes I get blowback but I can run a match with little more than a spritz of  balistol on the carrier.  Have shot bordertown, winterange and eot with no issues.  Is it worse than a bottleneck cartridge probably. But very doable.  I shoot a 73 and 66 and both work just fine only tear down and clean inside before a big match.  Your mileage may vary but I'm sticking with 45 colt 

Rafe 

[Oddnews SASS# 24779]

Last weekend I had a pertinent experience. Having (finally!) returned to CAS after a long hiatus, I was working my way through a match using a 100-round box of older 45 Colt handloads. In the second to last stage of the match, I made an unplanned move from smokeless to BP, apparently I’d “consolidated some loads from an 1860 Conversion into the box without realizing it. I finished the match, the last 20 rifle rounds, using BP. Although I’d done this with this rifle (Uberti 1873) before, it’s enough to say 45 Colt wouldn’t be my first choice for BP in a rifle. Too much blowback and fouling, noticeable even after the first ten rounds. I have friends who shoot whole matches of BP with no trouble, but as pointed out above they use the calibers Winchester offered, 44-40, 38-40, or 32-20.

BTW, sort your cartridges carefully and don’t swap from mild smokeless to full-house BP mid string. Even without the obvious safety concerns, it really breaks your concentration.

[Caladisi kid]

Well, well, if that is not a deep subject. 

A brief inventory of what I use is listed below.

The pistol/rifle brass used is 45-90, 45-70, 38-55, 45 colt, 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 mostly Starline with some mix of RP, CBC, PMC, Winchester, etc.

The shotgun hulls, in gauges 10, 12, 16, 20,  are brass, RMC, Winchester, CBC and  plastic hulls are Winchester AA, Rem. STS and other odd mix.

The powder used is real BP,  1F to 3F or APP in similar grain size.

Fillers are cream of wheat, fiber wads, cork, paper milk carton and foam backer rod.

Primers are usually what I can get, magnum for a hotter spark.

Want more boom and smoke, use more black. 

Want less recoil, then use more filler.

Always fill case, no air space.

Use a non-petroleum lube like Ballistol and SPG.

Do I anneal?  Yes, by the salt bath method.

Want less blowback?  Then anneal.

The BEST combination?  

Yes....................and have fun!    

 

Edited April 11 by Caladisi kid
add info

[Griff]

I've shot a '73 Uberti rifle in this sport since 1987... in 45 Colt.  For the most part in BP categories... in fact, all BP categories ever offered with no ill effect.  I found that the best thing I could do was simply sand down the sides of the carrier to allow a healthy amount of fouling to buildup before any sluggishness occurs.   I usually don't have to clean either pistols or rifle until after 12 stages... even over multiple day matches.  I tried annealing, but had mixed results.  As a relative youngster when I first started this I finished in the top 5 several times in either "Black Powder" (cap 'n' ball) or "Frontier Cartridge" at several different venues... (EOT, National Shootout, ShowDown, etc.).  I quit trying to be competitive many, many years ago, and now simply shoot for the fun of it, (errrr... my version of fun), others seem to think going as fast as they possibly can is fun.... all good.  Shooting BP in pistol (cap n ball), rifle and shotgun in the Frontiersman category is challenge enough.  

[Rafe Conager SASS #56958]

Shoot frontiersman and Frontier cartridge duelist with 45 colt! No issues .

Rafe

[slow poke gear]

7 hours ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:

Last weekend I had a pertinent experience. Having (finally!) returned to CAS after a long hiatus, I was working my way through a match using a 100-round box of older 45 Colt handloads. In the second to last stage of the match, I made an unplanned move from smokeless to BP, apparently I’d “consolidated some loads from an 1860 Conversion into the box without realizing it. I finished the match, the last 20 rifle rounds, using BP. Although I’d done this with this rifle (Uberti 1873) before, it’s enough to say 45 Colt wouldn’t be my first choice for BP in a rifle. Too much blowback and fouling, noticeable even after the first ten rounds. I have friends who shoot whole matches of BP with no trouble, but as pointed out above they use the calibers Winchester offered, 44-40, 38-40, or 32-20.

BTW, sort your cartridges carefully and don’t swap from mild smokeless to full-house BP mid string. Even without the obvious safety concerns, it really breaks your concentration.

It was good shooting with you, it startled me to when those BP shells went off.

Lol

[Dilli GaHoot Galoot]

6 hours ago, Caladisi kid said:

Yes....................and have fun!

 

Fun is the goal!  I don't mind equipment that adds a challenge, my shotgun is a 20ga 1980's H&R Topper that I cut off to 18.25" (measure 5 times, cut once!).  It doesn't have a front bead, but so far that hasn't been an issue and the other shooters have a great time trying to catch the empties 

But equipment that doesn't work or adds too many barriers like only holding 8 rounds that will feed smothley, is just a buzz kill

[Sedalia Dave]

14 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

 

You will never get a 16" 38/357 R92 to work properly for CAS. Even with an action job you will never get it to hold more than 8 rounds and cycle properly.

This statement may generally true but a new shooter in my club has a 16” rifle that she likes, so we worked with it a little.  Bought a stainless follower and new spring from Steve’s Gunz and as an experiment we trimmed the way-too-long factory magazine spring.  The rifle will now hold ten .38 Special cartridges with a 110gr TCFP bullet at a OAL of 1.44”.  Although ‘92s usually run better with longer cartridges, this particular rifle will run the ones I described.  We got lucky on this one, perhaps, but I no longer say “can’t” or “never”.

 

Grandma always told me to never say never.

 

Glad you got it working.

[Sedalia Dave]

6 hours ago, Rafe Conager SASS #56958 said:

Shoot frontiersman and Frontier cartridge duelist with 45 colt! No issues .

Rafe

 

I shoot Frontiersman and Frontier Cartridge Duelist with 38 specials loaded to 1.505" with NO issues.