Powder Burn Rate question

[Collier Kid]

I'm still kind of new and looking to get started reloading but having trouble finding supplies in my area. I finally got a box of federal SPP $90 and have about 800 38spl brass saved up from factory loads. I have some 105 and 125 gr Chey-Cast bullet samples on the way. I've also snagged a bottle of TiteGroup from my local Academy store for $30.

 

My question today is about powder options.  So far, TiteGroup is about the only one I've seen available in my area that I've found load data on for CAS. I have seen some of the other powders on this burn rate list but don't know if they would work. My understanding is that the lower the burn rate, the greater the possibility of it not all burning off before the bullet leaves the gun leaving (wasting) unburned powder or being dirty. Am I off on that theory? I found a burn rate chart and wondered if anyone used any of the faster burning powers for this sport. Iv'e seen sport pistol and TiteWad in the area but don't have any load data on those for 105-125 lead 38.

[Too Tall Bob]

You can’t go wrong with tite group. A lot of CAS folks use it for rifle and pistol. My personal load for .38 spec is 3.2 gr tite group with a winchester or federal primer and a 125 gr tcfp coated bullet. TG is pretty clean in the guns too. A good crimp helps alot as well with getting a good powder burn. 
 

Good luck with your reloading. 
 

TTB

Edited February 1 by Too Tall Bob

[Sedalia Dave]

DO NOT rely on the burn rate to determine powder substitution. Burn rates have no correlation to how a powder will actually perform ina given cartridge.

 

Choose your powder based on published load data. Do not go by bullet weight alone. The bullet's profile and how far it protrudes into the case have a big impact on how much pressure a given load will generate. 

 

last thing you want to do is cause harm to yourself or others. Nor do you want to destroy a firearm.

 

For some powders, going below published minimums can be more dangerous than exceeding published maximums when it comes to powder charges.

 

Edited February 1 by Sedalia Dave

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Tightgroup is #17 on your chart.  I've used Bullseye (a dirty powder) and currently load Sport Pistol (a newer, cleaner powder).  A local shooter loads Clay Dot.  Clays was the local favorite until it became unavailable.  A commercial loader of CAS ammo used Red Dot.  I load Extra-Lite for low recoil shotgun shells and Perfect Pattern is being loaded locally for these shells too.  Here is Alliant's load data for Sport Pistol:

 

You can contact the distributor (Hodgdon or Alliant) for load data for 105 grain bullets.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Generally, most of the powders with a burn rate faster than or same as Unique CAN USUALLY be made to work in cowboy pistol cartridge loads, especially if you stick with the powders intended for handgun cartridges.   

 

For example, I have used Bullseye, Red Dot, Clays, Clay Dot, Titegroup, Unique, American Select, Solo 100, e3, WST, Trailboss and some others in 38 special and various 45 caliber pistol cartridges.    If you can find a powder, post what you found and most likely someone here has used it like you want to, and can provide you a recipe that is safe and functional. 

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Give Unique or WW231 a try.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

If you can find Tite Group locally at a decent price, ($30/lb is a good price) then that's a great powder to use for all your pistol rounds.  You can even use Tite Group for loading 12 gauge shotgun shells.  For 125 gr. 38's, load 2.8 - 3.4 gr of Tite Group, depending on how wimpy or manly you want your rounds.  

 

Tite Group is all I've used in pistols cartridges for 15 years.  Works great.  Hodgdon even has a recipe for loading .223 with Tite Group to get subsonic loads.  

 

https://hodgdonreloading.com/rldc/

Edited February 2 by Badlands Bob #61228

[Wild Eagle]

5 hours ago, Too Tall Bob said:

You can’t go wrong with tite group. A lot of CAS folks use it for rifle and pistol. My personal load for .38 spec is 3.2 gr tite group with a winchester or federal primer and a 125 gr tcfp coated bullet. TG is pretty clean in the guns too. A good crimp helps alot as well with getting a good powder burn. 
 

Good luck with your reloading. 
 

TTB

you already have the Titegroup and this is a very popular load for CAS/SASS.  Load em up and make some noise.  Same load works just fine with 105 grain bullets too.

[watab kid]

if you already have titegroup your set , if you still need powder thats another story - you can use the same powder in your shotgun loads as well as your revolver or rifle if you develope loads with a good shotgun powder like red dot or clays or 700x , i use all three 

[Too Tall Bob]

If you have access to Green Dot - it makes great CAS loads for 12 ga. Shotgun. 

Edited February 2 by Too Tall Bob

[Texas Jack Black]

22 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Give Unique or WW231 a try.

 I think  HP 38 is the same as 231??  Cabelas has it on sale 38 .00 for one Pound.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yes, HP-38 and Win 231 are the same powder and use the same data.  Just two different brand names.   Hodgdon used to compete with Winchester powders, now they own the name and oversee the making of all "Winchester" powders.    That is why HP-38 name was first created, and now is duplicate and to some folks, confusing year after year.

 

good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Texas Jack Black said:

 I think  HP 38 is the same as 231??  Cabelas has it on sale 38 .00 for one Pound.

Yes, they are the same powder.

[Cpt Dan Blodgett, SASS #75655]

Some decent powders for .38 special are bullseye, red dot, A2, Nitro 100 on the slower side HP38, unique or universal.  I use the Bullseye, Red Dot, A2 and Nitro 100 range of powders and get 2000 or so rounds out of a lb. not necessarily container as many now have 12 or 14 oz vs a true pound

 

[Bison Bud]

As mentioned already, there are a large number of propellants that work quite well in the .38 Special.  The relative quickness of a powder is not the primary factor in clean burning.  Slower powders are generally use to make magnum type loads, but the quicker burning powders work quite well in the target type loads we use and the key is to build enough pressure to burn all the powder.  Using very light bullets and/or smaller than listed powder charges can cause some real problems and the .38 Special is a relatively mild mannered load to start with, so don't go overboard on trying to download them.  My personal favorite was Clays, but it has been unavailable for quite some time now and I am now loading Clay Dot with good success.  Unfortunately, you won't find published handgun loads for Clay Dot, but I've worked up some pretty good loads that I've posted with chronograph data in .38 Special, .44 Special, and .44 Magnum.  I've also used Titegroup (which I really like in my rifle rounds, but it's loud report and sharp recoil impulse does not make it a favorite in my revolvers).  As for other propellants that I've used, American Select, Bullseye, Winchester 231/HP38, Vitavori 320, Red Dot, and Unique are all very good options.  So there are many ways to go with the .38 Special and availability of many of these propellants is much improved over just a year ago, but the prices have sure gone up.  Good luck and good shooting to all.    

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Bison Bud and others gave good info.

In general you can use any of the powders 1-35 for target type loads as we use.  I've used most of them with success for target loads in standard revolver loads.

The faster powders work well for lighter loads (and lower velocities) and can generally be loaded at their minimum levels well, with a few exceptions.  You will notice that when it gets down to 40 degrees and below that the lowest loads become erratic.

 

The relative slower powders can give higher velocities.  But in pistols,  all the powders will burn nearly all unless using 2" barrels.

I have noticed that slower powders such as Unique can give a little softer recoil but may leave a little more residue, but that isn't a problem.

For some reason some powders, especially titegroup, give a very sharp report and snappier recoil compared to similar powders.  But it is reliable and accurate, but not my personal favorite for Cowboy.  But I use it for 9mm and loads that need higher pressures.

Get a good reloading manual that lists powders and loads and you will see how the powders give differing velocities.  You can also learn a lot by reading some of the powder companies web sites.

[Trailrider #896]

One word of caution: DO NOT LOAD LIGHTER THAN THE MINIMUM LOADS LISTED IN RELOADING MANUALS!  This can cause delayed shotstart, that can result in a bullet jumping out of the case and lodging in the barrel forcing cone, and then much higher pressures.  Best thing is to use the middle loads listed, regardless of powder, unless you are trying to get higher velocities. 

[Shawnee Hills]

I started with TrailBoss in 45C and switched to Winchester 231 when I went to 38s.  I ran into position issues with that when switching to new stock so have now gone to TiteGroup.  Will be staying with that until these 16 lbs. are gone.  Am not experiencing the sharper recoil that some are reporting but I'm only loading 3.4 gr. behind a 125 gr. bullet.

[bgavin]

The hodgdon online load data is your friend.  They publish pressure as well as velocity so you tailor your loads to the BHN ( hardness) of the Bullet you use.

 

I use BHN=9 which is 11k PSI for SASS revolver use.  Fast powders such as 231, clays, red dot, 700x, clean shot, No.2 all work well in this range.

 

Most hi tek I see are in the 12-16 BHN range, so adjust your powder accordingly.

[Snakebite]

Loading for the 38 special in this game is very easy.  I've been loading for over 60 yrs and have always advised folks to use established loads recommended by the MFG. That is of course always a safe answer to give., and it is MY suggestion to you. For my OWN use, I've never found ANY fast powder that will not work in a 38 special for the game we play. When shooting the large targets that are right in front of the end of the barrel, it doesn't take a refined and dialed in, extensive case scrutiny load to get the job done. Anything that will leave the end of the barrel will usually work. Yep... some loads will increase in pressure a bit when down loaded, but much more so with over loaded.  But remember this, 99.9% of the guns used to shoot 38's out of in this game are proofed for the very high pressures developed in a 357 Mag cartridge. The guns that I've seen blown up did NOT come from shooting a 38 special with a small charge of fast powder. Don't take all of this to be too caviler, reloading ammo can have dangerous results, but in general working at the low end of things such as we do in this game is not as critical as some folks think. 

[Collier Kid]

Thank you all for the excellent advice and info. Since I've heard so many people using TiteGroup and it was only $30, I went ahead and bought 2 more pounds. I figured that even if I found another powder I like I could keep this as a backup. It's better to have some powder than none. I'll keep an eye out for some of the others mentioned but It looks like they will all be more expensive and or harder to find.

[bgavin]

Titegroup is a fine powder for your intended use.

Edited February 5 by bgavin

[Buckshot Bear]

I just got a goodly supply of N320 & N330 how 'close' is the burn rate published charts and can you interchange?

 

 

 

[Equanimous Phil]

4 hours ago, Buckshot Bear said:

I just got a goodly supply of N320 & N330

There's this 'semi official' manual for reloading cowboy ammo with Vihtavuori. It provides data for both powders. Worked well for my .45 Colt loads using N320.

VV_Cowboy_Data.pdf

[bgavin]

Thanks!
I added that VV 2005 guide to my library.

[Buckshot Bear]

15 hours ago, Equanimous Phil said:

There's this 'semi official' manual for reloading cowboy ammo with Vihtavuori. It provides data for both powders. Worked well for my .45 Colt loads using N320.

VV_Cowboy_Data.pdf 382 kB · 11 downloads

 

Thank you !

[Griff]

Two things not mentioned... 1:  The lower the # the faster the burn rate.  2:  The numbers (or position) of a powder on the chart bears no relationship as the difference in burn rates.   IOW, the difference in burn rate between each powder is neither consistent, nor can be predicted without more precise information.

 

Regardless of their position on the chart, two powders next to each cannot be depended on to provide any confidence in their suitability to use. 

 

Lastly, reloading manuals are your friends... The Hodgdon site is quite convenient, but it isn't the "be all or end all" of reloading data.  Their new version lacks quite a number of cast specific load data.  I'm much more reliant on Lyman's Cast Bullet Reloading Handbooks;  IME, you simply CANNOT have too many reloading manuals.

[Vail Vigilante]

The burn speed chart is a valuable educational tool but its not a substitution chart. Titegroup is great for what you want to do. I use it in most of my reloads for pistols, including all my CAS, USPSA, and multigun ammo. I like that it runs through my Dillion with consistent charge weights, and it burns very clean too.