WTC

[Itchy Trigger]

Order: Rifle (10) / Pistol (10) / Shotgun (6+)

 

Scenario

-) Position 02 (Doorway): Shoot Rifle out of Doorway

-) Position 03 (Window): Shoot Pistol

-) Position 03 (Window): Shoot Shotgun Targets - 2

-) Position 01 (Window): Shoot Shotgun Targets - 4

 

Action

-) Shooter Shoots Rifle at Position 02,

-) Shooter runs to Position 03 and Shoots Shotgun at both Targets, EARNING A PENALTY,

-) Shooter runs to Position 01 and Shoots 2 Shotgun Targets,

-) While shooter is shucking and reloading the TO realizes he hasn't fired his pistols and tells the shooter to put down shotgun and go back to Position 03 and shoot the pistols. Shooter follows TO instructions even though he believed he should have been allowed to finish shooting the last two shotgun targets and then return to Position 03 to shoot his pistols. It is better to follow the TO instructions when at the firing line when it would not a dangerous action and discuss the specifics later away from the firing line.

-) Shooter places shotgun on table and runs to Position 03 and shoot pistols.

-) Shooter runs back to Position 01 and shoots last two shotgun targets.

 

Discussion

-) Shooter immediately discusses with an RO2 instructor (BIPN) at unloading table who believe that if shooter had not gone back to Position 03 when TO told him, he would have also earned a spirit of the game penalty.

-) Shooter believe that he is "entitled" to a reshoot ONLY because the TO increased his overall time by 10+ seconds. It is not the TO's responsibility to stop him from firing in the incorrect order and earning a P, but he should have been allowed to continue shooting in the incorrect order once he started. Shooter decided NOT TO request a reshoot because he didn't feel he should be "rewarded" with a lower time when he was the one that made the first mistake and the TO was making an "honest" attempt to assist the shooter.

 

IMHO

-) This is not close to a "Spirit of the Game" issue, he should have been allowed to finish his current action and then rectify the situation. He was not dumping on a target or doing anything other than the stage directions, he was just doing it in a time inefficient manner and earning a P in the process.

-) TO could have corrected shooter before shooting at the shotgun targets (great TO),

inform the shooter before leaving Position 03 to shoot pistols (Good TO and Shooter has earned P),

inform the shooter after shooting shotgun at Position 01 that he hadn't fired his Pistols (Good TO and Shooter earned P and extra exercise),

or said nothing since it is the shooter's responsibility (Shooter earned a P and 10 misses).

-) But, by changing the shooters actions and increasing his time, the shooter should have been allowed a reshoot if they desired.

-) Surprisingly, there were several shooters that almost made the same mistake and picked up their shotgun before firing pistols, but TO's were then prepared and able to rectify.

 

Thoughts?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

T/O 'interference'(accidental or international)gets you a re-shoot.

[Captain Bill Burt]

There was no need to go back to pistols at that point, the P had already been earned.

[Barry Sloe]

46 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

There was no need to go back to pistols at that point, the P had already been earned.

The P had been earned, but the revolvers had not been fired (50 seconds in misses if not fired).

 

BS

[Captain Bill Burt]

Yes,

9 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

The P had been earned, but the revolvers had not been fired (50 seconds in misses if not fired).

 

BS

Yes, but he could have finished the shotgun, then went to pistols rather than back and forth.

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

The TO should have been paying more attention and caught the shooter before he put the first shotgun round downrange from position 3. Once the first shotgun round went downrange, the TO should have reminded the shooter to shoot his pistols before moving from position 3 to position 1. Still would have been a P, but sending the shooter clear back to position 3 to shoot his pistols before finishing the shotgun targets at position 1 shouldn't have happened. But If the shooter had made it to position 1 without shooting pistols he should have finished the shotgun string then gone back to position 3 to shoot pistols.

 

Your mileage may vary...

[Griff]

No on Spirit of the Game penalty.

The shooter already earned the Procedural when he didn't shoot the pistols first from position 3, moving to position 1 before shooting the pistols and thinking it was somehow a competitive advantage requires some kind of logic I'm not familiar with!  IMO, when the TO told the shooter to go back to station 3 in the midst of a shotgun string, he further impeded the shooter and gave the shooter the option to reshoot.  (But, I'm really lax on reshoots, RO Rule #4 and all)!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

When the timer is in my hand - Im a FIRM believer in "safely" assisting the shooter to avoid procedural penalties.

If I fail to do so or the shooter figures out how to earn their "P" in spite of my efforts - I am even MORE OF A FIRM BELIEVER in shutting up and getting out of the way.

 

They have already earned their "P" - do not compound the penalty by yapping at them.

Let them "safely" continue and complete their stage to the best of THEIR abilities.

 

Now IF they stop - deer in the headlights - of course you give them directions to complete the stage.  But, if the shooter is continuing barreling thru the stage SAFELY there is zero reason to continue issuing instructions to the shooter.

Their damage is done - there is no competitive advantage to ever earning a "P" - so a missed movement or gun fired from the wrong movement is now a moot point (unless done with deliberation to minimize their penalty).

 

But a shooter confused by error and then having that error/ penalty compounded by instructions contrary to their plan is (or can become) a dangerous shooter with sloppy firearms attention or frustration.

 

Most of the time - Shutting up is your best course of action.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Oh, and only IMPROPER TO coaching is interference and grounds for a reshoot - not PROPER instruction.

 

The shooter ALWAYS (excepting safety instructions) has the right to ignore the TO's shooting instruction.

 

I have MANY MANY times ignored the TOs bleating because their opinion of the stage instruction differed from mine or I had a differing plan of attack (Left handed Gunfighters sometimes do things differently).

Again SAFETY is a different animal - but once the timer goes off - the stage is mine to maneuver; if I earn a Procedural penalty - thats entirely on me.

[Assassin]

Creeker is correct. TO shouldn't have said anything until after shooter finished with SG. TO cost the shooter even more time. If it's not a safety issue and the shooter is already engaging targets and earned a P leave them alone. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Creeker is correct.

I really have nothing to add - just think the above should be repeated as often as  possible.

[Equanimous Phil]

6 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

The shooter ALWAYS (excepting safety instructions) has the right to ignore the TO's shooting instruction.

This is absolutely true.

But: I consider myself a still relatively inexperienced shooter, started in late 2018 with only 10-12 matches a year. When I am shooting a stage, completely focused on targets and my handling, it is impossible for me to process if a TO's command is an order or just a friendly suggestion that I'm allowed to ignore. So, I just do what TO says, and may review and discuss it later. I wonder how many % of all shooters really are able to determine without fail within a split of a second if a command is safety relevant or not.

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

7 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Most of the time - Shutting up is your best course of action.

Creeker, this is easier said than done!  

 

[Matthew Duncan]

16 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Most of the time - Shutting up is your best course of action.

Yep.  Before ya dig yourself into a hole you can’t get out of, stop digging.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

36 minutes ago, Matthew Duncan said:

Yep.  Before ya dig yourself into a hole you can’t get out of, stop digging.

As much as I can give good advice - following my own advice is difficult.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

21 hours ago, Itchy Trigger said:

Shooter decided NOT TO request a reshoot because he didn't feel he should be "rewarded" with a lower time when he was the one that made the first mistake and the TO was making an "honest" attempt to assist the shooter.

 

There you go.  The shooter made the right call.  Whenever these things come up on the wire it is always "the TO should have done this" or "the TO should have done that" blah, blah, blah.  The TO is just a posse member who was kind enough to do the timing.  SASS does not have professional TOs and these things happen in a fraction of a second, not 14 pages of armchair TOing on the wire.  Good for the shooter.

[Maddog McCoy SASS #5672]

Shooter needs RO1 class to better understand the game.

TO should have let him continue  (as long as he was safe) and told him to go back and shoot pistols after the shotgun was finished.

As posse marshal, I probably would have gave him a reshoot at a local match and gave some advice on the rules.

Bigger match, depends on the circumstances, as reshoot are not granted very often and I would hope the TO at a bigger match would have let him finish and then told him to shoot pistols. Bigger match would require match director involvement to keep the match consistent.

 

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

25 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

As much as I can give good advice - following my own advice is difficult.

Mr. Creeker I see we have something in common.

[Hoss]

I’m going to agree with Larsen. 
 

TO made an honest mistake. Should have offered a reshoot. But shooter should refuse. At least that’s what I’d hope I’d do in a similar situation 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I'll be the contrarian.  If the TO interferes with my stage and causes me to lose time I'm going to take a reshoot if it's available.  Does that mean in this case I get another bite at the no P apple?  Yep.  Sometimes you're the dog and sometimes you're the hydrant.

[Ranger Dan]

TO should have offered a reshoot. I have offered reshoots for less. Been offered reshoots for less.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

When a shooter makes a significant mistake earning a penalty and then continues the stage wrong requiring multiple assists from the TO, the shooter shouldn't get a reshoot because the TO doesn't quickly and perfectly guide him. Otherwise this would encourage the shooter to just go ahead making more mistakes in the hopes that if the TO gives any help that costs the shooter a second of time he'll get a reshoot for his disaster stage. Thus penalizing all of the shooters who shoot within their abilities penalty free.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

No reshoot is warranted - the TO did NOT give incorrect coaching.

The TO coaching was correct as to the firearms order - correct coaching is NEVER grounds for a reshoot.

 

Doing the stage "incorrectly" is what cost the shooter time by:

1.  Earning a P for SG out of order.

2. Being in the wrong spot to complete the stage "correctly" per the TOs CORRECT coaching.

 

The shooter could have chosen to continue their stage (as they had already earned the "P") - but they ACCEPTED and FOLLOWED the TOs correct coaching to complete the stage.

 

The extra time is not a result of incorrect coaching - it is a product of the shooters error(s).

Earning their P

and

Not understanding their ownership of the stage to completion.

 

The TO has zero obligation to the shooter to offer any assistance - if the shooter wishes no asistance - they need to state that at stage start.

But they cannot be willing to accept assistance and then use that CORRECT assistance to claim they were harmed or deserve reshoot.

 

And good on the shooter in the post for accepting their errors are their responsibility and accepting the consequences there from.

[Captain Bill Burt]

At that point in the stage, having already earned a P, was the shooter required to fire the pistols before finishing with the shotgun? No.

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

21 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

If I fail to do so or the shooter figures out how to earn their "P" in spite of my efforts - I am even MORE OF A FIRM BELIEVER in shutting up and getting out of the way…..if the shooter is continuing barreling thru the stage SAFELY there is zero reason to continue issuing instructions to the shooter.

Their damage is done - there is no competitive advantage to ever earning a "P" - so a missed movement or gun fired from the wrong movement is now a moot point (unless done with deliberation to minimize their penalty).

As you yourself said, firing the remaining shotgun rounds at that point prior to returning to pistols is now moot, therefore instructing the shooter to do something that he doesn’t have to do and will cost him time is improper.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

. . . Does that mean in this case I get another bite at the no P apple?  Yep . . . 

Glad I read this thread

I was under the mistaken thought that the P as well as safety penalties would carry over--not the case.

 

this was a good way to get it straight in my head

 

thanks to all who posted on this

 

cr

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

At that point in the stage, having already earned a P, was the shooter required to fire the pistols before finishing with the shotgun? No.

 

 

Absolutely NOT required to - again the shooter has the right to ignore the TO excepting safety directives.

 

A newer shooter may have difficulties differentiating between safety direction and shooting direction - but a seasoned shooter like myself or the good Captain Burt should (and would) be able to determine the difference between a safety direction "Stop", "Cease fire" and "Squib" 

or a shooting instruction

"Window", "Pistols" and "Third target".

 

And therefore decide our own course of action to best complete the stage.

[Tennessee williams]

I CAN see the POSSIBILITY of a spirit of the game penalty being called if say the shooter shot a shooting string out of order on the first gun and instead of trying to shoot the next guns in order, just blows through in whatever sweep and in whatever gun order he/she wants. If I ask, "why didn't you shoot the guns in the right order" and they say "I already got a P for shooting the sweep wrong and can only get one so it was quicker" then YES. They will also earn a SOG penalty from me.

   Am I saying that's the case here? No. I wasn't there. Now, if I ask why they did that and they say "I was lost" then no call other than the P.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Respectfully, bad instructions are still bad instructions. If your interpretation is correct (Creeker) then reshoots would only be awarded when the instructions are regarding safety as your argument seems to be that any other bad instructions should be ignored and if they’re not it’s on the shooter for following them.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

10 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

As you yourself said, firing the remaining shotgun rounds at that point prior to returning to pistols is now moot, therefore instructing the shooter to do something that he doesn’t have to do and will cost him time is improper.

That is one way to look at the term improper coaching - not sure I agree with it - but it is indeed a point to consider.

 

But when Im on a road trip and decide theres another path to my destination -  the GPS is nagging at me to turn around because I'm not following the "correct" route.  I can CHOOSE to continue on my way or turn around and follow the GPS.

Maybe there is a shortcut - but if I don't continue on my chosen path; if I listen to the GPS and turn around - the time lost for my detour is on me - not the GPS.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I guess the question is...

What exactly makes coaching "bad" or "improper" coaching?

 

Obviously incorrect information is improper coaching - "Shoot your pistols from the window" when you are supposed to move to the door would be improper coaching.

 

Providing the wrong target sequence, "Engage target three 4x" when it was target one 4x is improper coaching.

 

But if informing the shooter of correct gun order, correct sequence, correct positions is considered proper and welcomed coaching;  it is hard for me to see how the shooters action of earning a "P" changes the same information into improper coaching. 

 

Penalty for the shooters actions and decisions are on the shooter.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Shooter loads shotgun and closes action, at window 1. Stage instructions call for shotgun to be shot from window 3. Should the TO instruct the shooter to move to window 3, it’s the correct window.

 

Same stage instructions, Shooter picks up shotgun at window 1 but hasn’t loaded it yet. Should the TO instruct the shooter to move to window 3?

 

My point? The shooter’s actions can cause what’s proper coaching on a stage to become improper coaching even if the stage instructions are the same.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Shooter loads shotgun and closes action, at window 1. Stage instructions call for shotgun to be shot from window 3. Should the TO instruct the shooter to move to window 3, it’s the correct window.

 

Absolutely YES - the instruction is still absolutely correct.  

There are ADDITIONAL SAFETY instructions that need to be addressed prior to the "Shotgun at window three" instruction - but those instructions (or the requirement for those instructions) do not invalidate the fact that "Shotgun at window three" is still a proper coaching declaration.

 

A quality TO is going to do their level best to "safely assist" the shooter to correct their mistake and get the shooter back on track.

"Stop - Open the action" 

"Shotgun from window three"

 

Or lets say its a pistol that got cocked at the wrong position and we are not able to allow a decocking.

"Fire your shot - into the berm or at the target if you can do so safely" 

"Pistols from window three"

 

 The shooter CANNOT ignore our TO safety direction.

The shooter can CHOOSE to complete their pistol string from that position as they have already earned their "P" but earning the "P" doesn't suddenly mean that "Pistol from window three" becomes incorrect - its printed in the shooters booklet; do A then B then C - there is no caveat that states if you get a "P" - any reminders of the stage instruction becomes improper.

The shooter can CHOOSE to complete the stage how they wish - but they do risk the SOG penalty for now willfully ignoring the stage instructions.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Same stage instructions, Shooter picks up shotgun at window 1 but hasn’t loaded it yet. Should the TO instruct the shooter to move to window 3?

 

Of course; I think we all can agree on the above.

 

9 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

My point? The shooter’s actions can cause what’s proper coaching on a stage to become improper coaching even if the stage instructions are the same.

 Theres the rub - the proper instruction being given to a shooter that did not commit an error would not create ANY opportunity for a reshoot - but a shooter that commits an error (of their own creation ie the initial "P") somehow receiving the exact same proper coaching gets the opportunity for a reshoot?

[Idaho Gunslinger]

Reading through all this it comes down to this one sentence: "While shooter is shucking and reloading the TO realizes he hasn't fired his pistols and tells the shooter to put down shotgun and go back to Position 03 and shoot the pistols."

 

I got the impression the TO was being very forceful in making him stop shooting halfway through his shotgun string. I suspect this is why the shooter brought this up to the RO2. 

 

Re-reading it I can see it either way. I'm a noob though so I don't know what would be optimal though. I'm guessing this was a monthly match and the scores aren't the end of the world. There's always next month or next week even. 

 

 

[Griff]

Imo, Instructing the shooter to return to previous shooting position in the midst of completing another is not "safely assisting the shooter thru the stage".  It has become instructing the shooter to compound the error they made by making the completion of the stage longer than necessary.  Had the TO instructed the shooter to shoot the pistols BEFORE he left the 2nd position, or waiting til he'd completed the shotgun at the 3rd position to return to the 2nd position and fire the pistols, I'd have no problem.