Black Mike Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 Had a few more pistol misses than normal yesterday. Was shooting my Ruger OMV’s in 44-40 with real black and 200 gr big lubes. I normally shoot APP with 200 gr bullets. All .428. I went to range and carefully shot 10 rounds of big lubes and found that they grouped from 1 inch left of my point of aim to 6 inches left. Did same with my normal APP loads and the group tightened up no more than 2” left or right of my aim point. Shot duelist at 25 feet. this one has me scratching my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 (edited) Verify your barrels are fee of lead deposits. Next shoot from a rest to verify that the issue is not you. You can also have a shooter that is known to be accurate with pistols shoot yours to see if they experience the same offset between POA and POI Edited November 20, 2022 by Sedalia Dave 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarlett Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Well, we know it wasn’t the non-big lube bullets or APP! Hugs! Scarlett 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafe Conager SASS #56958 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 App is about 20-25% lighter recoil, could be flintch.. could be the 1 inch left was your 1st round then flinch or trigger jersey widened your pattern out. Rafe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 What alloy are the big lubes cast from? Too hard, and they won't seal the barrel (through upsetting) because real black powder pistol loads won't make much over 8,000 PSI (at the best). And what lube on the big lubes? Most likely either th e bullet or the lube.... good luck, GJ 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder Creek Kid Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Both of my old model vaqueros had to have my cylinder mouths opened up to .430. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 The target on the left indicates that you are milking the pistol. Your trigger finger is pulling the barrel left as you squeeze the trigger. Try loading 2 rounds in your pistol and spin the cylinder so you don't know when a live round comes up. Then shoot the target. You will probably see the front site moving to the left when you pull on an empty chamber. Flinching. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bison Bud Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said: The target on the left indicates that you are milking the pistol. Your trigger finger is pulling the barrel left as you squeeze the trigger. Try loading 2 rounds in your pistol and spin the cylinder so you don't know when a live round comes up. Then shoot the target. You will probably see the front site moving to the left when you pull on an empty chamber. Flinching. Yeah, not uncommon for a right hander to "milk" shots to the left, especially when in a hurry. However, I'd still give the gun a good cleaning, especially the forcing cone area to make sure there isn't any lead buildup. Targets shown are probably grouped well enough not to be a leading problem, but I'd eliminate that possibility anyway. Otherwise, try putting just the tip of your finger on the trigger and get some range time. Not real sure about the improvement with APP over real black powder, but it could be a velocity issue causing a bit more lock time and exaggerating the pull to the left on the slower rounds. I guess it could be a bullet sizing issue as well, but I tend to doubt it. Good luck and good shooting to all. Edited November 21, 2022 by Bison Bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 (edited) If BOTH targets showed that the shooter was pulling the shots down and left, then, yeah, I'd say it was a shooter flinch. But when the APP target shows a nice "pattern" and the BP target does not, then it's most likely that the "very first attempt at reloading real BP cartridges" has gone poorly. A .428" diameter bullet is smaller than I find to have best accuracy. I size all .44 caliber slugs at 0.430" for soft-alloy BP bullets. Ruger cuts the barrels for ALL their .44 caliber handguns at 0.429" - even if historically the .44-40 was made with 0.427" groove diameter. Same for Uberti and Pietta too. good luck, GJ Edited November 21, 2022 by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kloehr Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 22 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: ... the "very first attempt at reloading real BP cartridges" ... ... could maybe also result in flinch. My last idea would bo to maybe randomly mix both APP and BP loads in the same revolver and see what happens to the combined pattern? One group or two, and where? I would go with the other ideas above first though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Original Ruger Vaqueros where made using 44 mag cylinders bores of .427" to .428". wit barrels that were .429". Having the cylinders recut to .430" will solve the bullet to barrel size issue. You will then load .430" diameter bullets and your pattern should close up more than half as long as you are not pulling the grip down and left during trigger pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mike Posted November 21, 2022 Author Share Posted November 21, 2022 The cylinders of my pistols are cut to .430. They shoot .428’s just as well as .429’s. Believe it or not it is just the big lube bullets with BP that are an issue. They shoot .428 regular cast with APP just fine all day long. Shot some more today on a rest and got the same results. Thanks to all for your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Black Mike said: The cylinders of my pistols are cut to .430. They shoot .428’s just as well as .429’s. Believe it or not it is just the big lube bullets with BP that are an issue. They shoot .428 regular cast with APP just fine all day long. Shot some more today on a rest and got the same results. Thanks to all for your thoughts. Have you measured the big lube bullets to verify their diameter? I got a box of 158 gr bullets that were supposed to be sized .358 however, they were actually sized .356. Mistakes happen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Creek,5759 Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Real Black Powder requires a soft lube,like SPG. If you use a harder lube, or coated bullets they will be all over the Target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Knight Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Ooc, how many grains of APP do you normally load? Just getting started on 44-40. Johnny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 4 hours ago, Johnny Knight said: Ooc, how many grains of APP do you normally load? Just getting started on 44-40. Johnny I sent you a PM. Don’t listen to Mike; he lives on the coast of South Carolina. Those of us in the Upstate of the Palmetto State think more clearly. Kidding of course. Black Mike is a really good black powder shooter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Now you know why long range shooters work so hard on a recipe. Different powder, same bullet can cause tumbling, etc. same powder different bullet can do the same. You state you changed powder to APP and it's good. Also, real BP burns hotter, therefore melting the bottom of the bullet causing an unbalanced load. which is why BP long range shooters put a polywad on top of the powder under the bullet. So many thing could be the issue, not just "milking" the gun. Get a notebook, write it all down. Powder Bullet Chrono Pollywad Accuracy With this you can develop the proper load for your gun 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ya Big Tree Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 26 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said: Now you know why long range shooters work so hard on a recipe. Different powder, same bullet can cause tumbling, etc. same powder different bullet can do the same. Exactly. I've had rifle loads that changed point of impact by up to 2 inches or more just by changing the bullet manufacture and all else being the same. Even in a .22 Hornet changing to a small pistol primer greatly reduced the group size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mike Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 Interesting comments all. I do keep data sheets for each firearm and load. Especially for my more accurate and longer range pursuits. This particular one just surprised me. No problem. Back on target. someone asked how many grains of aPP. I don’t know. I figure my bullet seating depth and load by volume to that level. Goal is very little compression. Will compress real black a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Happy New Year Black Mike. Eyesa & Ellie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frontier Lone Rider Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Have you been shooting this revolver for some time without any issues? If so, then re-read the above suggestions and give the solutions a try. If this is a new revolver to you and it has always shown these issues, then I suspect the cylinder throats. I only shoot GOEX fffg powder. I load both lead and coated bullets. I had ordered bullets with a .428 diameter, but after having high primers and other issues, I discovered that the bullets were actually .430. I purchased cylinder reamers from Brownell's, but the smallest reamer is .4270. That size was still too large for my cylinders. When I contacted Ruger they said these cylinders are no longer available for purchase and the original 44-40 were actually cut at .4250-.4260. I had three cylinders reamed by a gun smith and sent six cylinders to Ruger to have these cylinder throats reamed to .4290. Very few throats came back at .4290. It is rare to actually have stock cylinder throats that are all reamed at the same diameter on the same cylinder due to the manner that Ruger cuts the throats. Even the ones that Ruger reamed for me this past Fall had three different diameters. Out of the six that I had sent them, only one came back with all of the cylinder throats cut at the same diameter. Of the eleven 44-40s that I have, only two have all of the same diameter cylinder throats cut at the same diameter. I loaded a bunch of .4270 diameter rounds and at our shooting distance they seem to work. I am now loading .4280 to be closer to the majority of my cylinder throat diameters. They all seem to shoot just fine in all four of my 44-40 rifles. I am just happy when they all go off without any issues. That includes actually hitting the target. Frontier Lone Rider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 I count 10 shots per target with a fairly wide spread laterally on each target. Were all shots out of the same gun, or were two guns used per target? Were the same bullets used with each load (BP & APP), or did you use a different bullet with APP? What distance were the targets? I haven't seen where you answered the question about lube... I still strongly suspect it is a lube issue, or differences in bullets or POI between two guns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 After all that hullablue and "solutions" and tests, and other time wasting, lets kiss the problem. Just shoot APP. Simple. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Mike Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 Agree with you except sometimes you just have to shoot the real thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Creek,5759 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 Different Burn rates? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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