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38 special APP load data help


The Revenuer
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Lee 1.3 cc dipper (20 grains) -- add a bullet & crimp

or

1.0 cc (15 grains) dipper, and a bit of filler -- add a bullet & crimp.

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I use a 158 grain bullet with APP.  The bullet is longer than my usual 105-125 grain .38s and when seated takes up more of the case capacity.

 

Captain Baylor wrote an article in the Cowboy Chronicle that is helpful.  As I recall he used a 125 grain bullet and a length of foam caulk backer rod as a filler.  I forget the powder charge.

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1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Fill up case until powder touches bottom of seated bullet.  Done.  Weight lrrelevant.

I just shot that load at Black Gold. Good smoke. No compression necessary.

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I don't care what the smoke standard or rules say, but anyone who uses filler in a .38 is a sad gamer wimp.  Just my opinion.  

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PLUS ONE for Prairie Dawg

 

Bullet weight and powder weight are meaningless.  Just fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, crimp and yer done.  Wait, Prairie Dawg said the same thing.  Oh Well.

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OP, I do not know how to append photos to PMs.  So, here are some photos of a simple way to load APP.  Take a piece of dowel, align it with the bottom of the bullet and make a dot with a Sharpie where you intend to crimp the bullet.  After throwing a charge stick in the dowel and adjust the powder level up or down until the dot is sitting on top of the case mouth.  This will give just a tiny bit of compression.  None of these measurements are critical.  Change bullets?  Get a new piece of dowel.

 

DSC_0001.thumb.jpeg.c0dca3480429164d14e433afa29597d4.jpegDSC_0005.thumb.jpeg.0c6234b4cf9f6f58ea507aeba789e4dd.jpeg

 

Edited by Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933
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Here are the manufacturer's load instructions: http://americanpioneerpowder.com/loading.html.  The information in this thread is consistent with the manufacturer's instructions.

 

Wash your brass after firing.  APP residue can tarnish brass.

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I use APP in 45 Colt and 12 gauge.

 

Yer gonna like it.

 

:D

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7 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

Fill up case until powder touches bottom of seated bullet.  Done.  Weight lrrelevant.

 

5 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

OP, I do not know how to append photos to PMs.  So, here are some photos of a simple way to load APP.  Take a piece of dowel, align it with the bottom of the bullet and make a dot with a Sharpie where you intend to crimp the bullet.  After throwing a charge stick in the dowel and adjust the powder level up or down until the dot is sitting on top of the case mouth.  This will give just a tiny bit of compression.  None of these measurements are critical.  Change bullets?  Get a new piece of dowel.

 

DSC_0001.thumb.jpeg.c0dca3480429164d14e433afa29597d4.jpegDSC_0005.thumb.jpeg.0c6234b4cf9f6f58ea507aeba789e4dd.jpeg

 

 

+1000

 

Have shot tens of thousands of 38 special loaded this way with no issues.  I use 125 grain bullets and they work against every knockdown target i have come across.

 

BTW use 3F APP. 2F is way too coarse for pistol cartridges.

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I think you need 15 grains of that stuff to be a f c shooter I might be wrong ???? but me thinks thats what rules say about that nasty stuff ??? But I have been wrong before ....... Flame away 

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Grain for grain, APP creates  more smoke than the holy black.  You won’t see the sparks and flame nor enjoy the the same burnt sulfur scent, but you’ll produce plenty smoke.  Captain George Baylor did some testing that found .7cc by volume  meets our smoke standard.  That’ s about 9 grains by weight.  

Edited by Palo Alto Kid
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Testing of blackpowder rounds for the production of adequate smoke will also be conducted in a similar manner as described above. Rounds should be obtained from the shooter’s loaded firearms while at the loading table. The rounds should be fired in comparison to test rounds made using the following load data:

  • -  Standard .38 Special case.

  • -  1 cc GOEX 2F powder.

  • -  Federal Standard primer.

  • -  145 grain bullet lubed with SPG.

  • -  Powder lightly compressed with a medium roll crimp.

Failure of the shooter’s rounds to produce the same level of smoke as the standard rounds will result in a penalty for not adhering to the category requirements.

 

Shooter's Handbook, page 25.

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I’ve actually upped my charges… 10gr by weight with 125gr 38 no filler LOTS of good not foul smelling smoke! :ph34r: 40-42 gr by weight with ounce of shot in my shotshells. 
 

LOVE the smoke!! It’s so much fun to hit a target you cannot see! 
 

Hugs!

Scarlettt

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PLUS ONE for Scarlett you betcha.

 

I also load All Brass Magtech hulls with APP as well.  Same load cited by Scarlett.  40Gr 2F APP with a 1 ounce payload.

 

Additionally, I load ALL my rifle and pistol rounds on a Dillon 650.  I found early on, 2F is not so bueno in the Dillon powder measure.  The large granules of 2F caused mega bridging.  3F works a treat.

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11 hours ago, Palo Alto Kid said:

Grain for grain, APP creates  more smoke than the holy black.  You won’t see the sparks and flame nor enjoy the the same burnt sulfur scent, but you’ll produce plenty smoke.  Captain George Baylor did some testing that found .7cc by volume  meets our smoke standard.  That’ s about 9 grains by weight.  

 

In 38 specials loading less than a full case will cause a lot of blowby.  There used to be a shooter in these parts that loaded 38s with APP so light that making the smoke standard was questionable.  Always was having trouble with his rifle and pistols due to the excessive blowby fouling the action. Thought is was hilarious that he couldn't make 6 stages without constantly clean his guns.

 

I filled them full and have shot 18 stages over 3 days with nothing more than wiping down the cylinder faces and spritzing the action with a little ballistol at the end of the day.

 

When loading shotshells you need to use enough powder so that the hulls seal the chamber. with 7/8 oz loads this is about 37 grains by weight. Otherwise the chambers will gunk up and the shells will stick in a SXS

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In my 38 special rounds I use 130 gr coated bullets with no lube and 13 gr by weight of APP. That's about 1.2cc if you use a dipper. I cut a 1.3cc dipper down to measure volume. It touches the bullet base with no compression.  

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3 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Additionally, I load ALL my rifle and pistol rounds on a Dillon 650.  I found early on, 2F is not so bueno in the Dillon powder measure.  The large granules of 2F caused mega bridging.  3F works a treat.

FWIW, I was advised by a shooter here to keep in mind Dillon does not "support" using its presses with BP or subs, also to keep in mind Dillon therefore would not "support" attaching a small vibrating aquarium pump to the equipment to help the powder flow better.

 

I really should order a press soon so there is some chance of it showing up this year. I was also advised to not mention BP or subs to Dillon when ordering a press.

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It should be pointed out that after you are done loading shell or cartridges with APP you need to thoroughly clean the powder measure and flow through powder dies. The dust residue left behind by APP will cause corrosion if not removed after a few days.

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9 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

 

In 38 specials loading less than a full case will cause a lot of blowby.  There used to be a shooter in these parts that loaded 38s with APP so light that making the smoke standard was questionable.  Always was having trouble with his rifle and pistols due to the excessive blowby fouling the action. Thought is was hilarious that he couldn't make 6 stages without constantly clean his guns.

 

I filled them full and have shot 18 stages over 3 days with nothing more than wiping down the cylinder faces and spritzing the action with a little ballistol at the end of the day.

 

When loading shotshells you need to use enough powder so that the hulls seal the chamber. with 7/8 oz loads this is about 37 grains by weight. Otherwise the chambers will gunk up and the shells will stick in a SXS

 

9 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

 

In 38 specials loading less than a full case will cause a lot of blowby.  There used to be a shooter in these parts that loaded 38s with APP so light that making the smoke standard was questionable.  Always was having trouble with his rifle and pistols due to the excessive blowby fouling the action. Thought is was hilarious that he couldn't make 6 stages without constantly clean his guns.

 

I filled them full and have shot 18 stages over 3 days with nothing more than wiping down the cylinder faces and spritzing the action with a little ballistol at the end of the day.

 

When loading shotshells you need to use enough powder so that the hulls seal the chamber. with 7/8 oz loads this is about 37 grains by weight. Otherwise the chambers will gunk up and the shells will stick in a SXS

I’ve had the same experience as you-shoot straight through a multi-day match with nothing more than wiping down the cylinders and frames.  I do use 125s over 105s with a nice, tight crimp-I think that helps too.  I’d recommend that to the OP. 
 

I’ve played around with various fillers, but don’t have the patience for the extra work.  
 

I have to confess, as much as I like APP,  I prefer the flame, smoke and smell of the holy black, and hate the APP dust that ‘floats’ around the Dillon while loading; however, when on the road away from home, cleaning and maintenance are a breeze-you don’t have to jump on it right away and break everything down, particularly with the rifle. 
 

APP is a great product and Brett that runs the outfit is a really nice guy. 

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For those using 10 grains by weight and 125 gr bullets and no filler are you concerned that the powder is not all the way to the bottom of the bullet?  Using Larsen’s method I think it takes closer to 13 grains to fill to the bottom of the bullet 

 

Thanks

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39 minutes ago, The Revenuer said:

For those using 10 grains by weight and 125 gr bullets and no filler are you concerned that the powder is not all the way to the bottom of the bullet?  Using Larsen’s method I think it takes closer to 13 grains to fill to the bottom of the bullet 

 

Thanks

Adjust your powder drop till it fills the case where you want it.  Right around 13 gr for APP 3F sounds about right.   American Pioneer Powder does recommend  filling to the point that the base of the bullet will very slightly compress the powder, about 1/16” when it is seated. No further compression is recommended.   

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I'd like to let some folks know, the more recent formulations DO NOT create a cloud of dust around the loading press.  And for those appreciating something more aromatic, I absolutely abhor the stink of burnt Sulphur from BP.  I find the somewhat citrusy scent of APP to be more pleasant. (Thibbit  Thibbit) 

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10 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

I'd like to let some folks know, the more recent formulations DO NOT create a cloud of dust around the loading press.  And for those appreciating something more aromatic, I absolutely abhor the stink of burnt Sulphur from BP.  I find the somewhat citrusy scent of APP to be more pleasant. (Thibbit  Thibbit) 

Do you spray your powder with Lemon Pledge before loading it?

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Posted (edited)

I appreciate everyone’s responses, now I have some more rookie questions for you all.

 

I loaded 50 rounds of 38 special with 10 grains of APP and 50 with 13 grains.   I went to the range yesterday for some practice and to try out the new loads.   Both the 10 grain and 13 grain produced plenty of smoke and I preferred the 10 grains in my pistols.

 

Now here comes the big problem, after about 10 rounds of the 13 grain and 30 rounds of the 10 grain the carrier in my 1873 rifle got so cruddy it completely locked up. Prior to shooting the carrier had been cleaned / lubed with ballistol and I did shoot several rounds of smokeless before trying the APP loads.  What is my problem?  Too much blow by?  APP not good with ballistol?  
 

Thanks

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I played around with a variety of APP loads in my .38s and I, too, liked 10 grains in my pistol.  I haven't used a filler, and it seems to work quite well in both my NMVs and my 1873.  I haven't had any problem whatsoever with my 1873 getting sticky or gritty.  Prior to switching to APP, I broke down the rifle and cleaned it very well then re-lubed with Ballistol.  My only routine is that after every couple of stages or after shooting 30 or 40 rounds at the range, I'll squirt a little Windex with vinegar through the top of the rifle with the carrier pushed down, let it drain out, wipe off the receiver with an oily rag, then squirt in a little Ballistol around the carrier.  I do the same with the cylinder face and base pin of the revolvers.

 

I've know a lot of experienced shooters use "moose milk" or PAM for quick cleaning during a match, but I haven't yet evolved that far!  I do plan to try it.

 

I haven't mixed shooting smokeless and APP rounds in the same session.  I decided to commit to shooting APP exclusively this year and, so far, I've been able to keep to it.

 

Good luck to you, and may the smoke be with you!

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