Lunger Dan Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Uberti 1875 Top Break .45 colt purchased late 2018. 30 rounds per month fired from pistol during SASS shooting matches "recoil " shield around firing pin hole has cratered aprx .002 .in depth-primers now backing out that amount and seizing cylinder to point that hammer cannot be cocked and cylinder does not turn. Remedy from anyone's experience? This is rather upsetting after only apx. 1,080 rounds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickel City Dude Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 High end shotguns sometimes run into this problem and the solution is to have them laser welded. I sent a pair of guns to Micro precision Welding and they did a great job. Here is a link to there web site. https://www.microprecisionwelding.com/gun-repair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 We had two Smoke Wagons repaired by Ahlmans. Wasn't cheap but did an excellent job. https://www.ahlmans.com/gunsmithing.html Before and after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pee Wee #15785 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 I would see if Uberti would fix! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 I would add a hardened firing pin bushing like the Colt and Pietta GWII SAA has. I just had to do that to a pair of ASM SAA's. They too had recessed enough to bind the cylinder because the primer wasn't re-seating. I haven't checked in awhile but I bought several bushing from Dixie years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 8 minutes ago, Pee Wee #15785 said: I would see if Uberti would fix! Fat chance. Taylor's told us our Smoke Wagons weren't worth fixing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 8 minutes ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said: I would add a hardened firing pin bushing like the Colt and Pietta GWII SAA has. I just had to do that to a pair of ASM SAA's. They too had recessed enough to bind the cylinder because the primer wasn't re-seating. I haven't checked in awhile but I bought several bushing from Dixie years ago That would be a great fix. I bought Pietta bushings in case I could get a gunsmith to install them. The couple of large gunsmith shops that I tried, couldn't or wouldn't install them. The S&W top break design should make the repair job a lot easier because of much easier accessibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bailey Creek,5759 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 I had the same problem with a pair of 1872 open tops in 44 colt. Sent them back to Cimmaron , what a Run Around i recieved . After the 3rd Gun Smith and 6 months later they put in a hardened pushing in recoil shield. No problems with them for 15 yrs. Not a Big fan of Cimmaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 Best bet is a hardened Bushing. Failing that . . . . Ahlmans gunsmithing next best bet. Forgot: A BIG PLUS ONE for Nate Kiowa Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 6 hours ago, Warden Callaway said: Fat chance. Taylor's told us our Smoke Wagons weren't worth fixing. !!!!!!!!! WOW !!!!!!!! That is disturbing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said: !!!!!!!!! WOW !!!!!!!! That is disturbing! Their fix was to replace the frames. You'd have more in them than buying a new gun. We are the second owner of the guns and they came to us in this condition. Taylor's response was that they had been shot with hot handloads. I had no expectations that Uberti or Taylor's would cover them under warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Devil Dale Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 4 hours ago, Warden Callaway said: Their fix was to replace the frames. You'd have more in them than buying a new gun. We are the second owner of the guns and they came to us in this condition. Taylor's response was that they had been shot with hot handloads. I had no expectations that Uberti or Taylor's would cover them under warranty. Still pretty disturbing. It would be interesting to hardness test the alloy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doc roy l. pain Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 21 hours ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said: I would add a hardened firing pin bushing like the Colt and Pietta GWII SAA has. I just had to do that to a pair of ASM SAA's. They too had recessed enough to bind the cylinder because the primer wasn't re-seating. I haven't checked in awhile but I bought several bushing from Dixie years ago Nate, is there a special press or tool that peens over the edges to keep the bushing in place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 signing on to see Nate's answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted August 23, 2021 Share Posted August 23, 2021 I had a similar issue with a H&R Topper. The frames in those are made of ductile iron. I annealed an allen set screw, drilled and tapped the frame and drilled a new hole for the firing pin. Ductile iron is not real strong, and if hammered on enough, it gets granular. Theory: My guess; you were using Fed primers. The pressure generated in the primer pocket, by the exploding primer, is greater than the pressure generated by the burning powder. Federal primers have a thin cup. I've heard of reloaders drilling the flash hole larger to cut down on that pressure. Also, a light hammer spring doesn't let the tip of the firing pin hold back the pressure like it should. I estimate that the pressure in the primer pocket gets to about 20,000 psi. Not very many square inches, but without a hardened bushing, not much strength there either. Anyways, that's my theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 13 hours ago, doc roy l. pain said: Nate, is there a special press or tool that peens over the edges to keep the bushing in place? There is and I had one years ago. But, I can't find it. Now days I just use the Green sleeve locker from LocTite. Same stuff I use for barrel relines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 The Pietta part number looks to be SAA5516. Available about everywhere Pietta are sold. But in the case top break, maybe a Smith and Wesson hammer nose bushing may work better due to the bird beak shape of the firing pin. And they cost less. MidwayUSA has them in stock. Probably available in a lot of places. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1004461140 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Dan Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 14 hours ago, "Big Boston" said: I had a similar issue with a H&R Topper. The frames in those are made of ductile iron. I annealed an allen set screw, drilled and tapped the frame and drilled a new hole for the firing pin. Ductile iron is not real strong, and if hammered on enough, it gets granular. Theory: My guess; you were using Fed primers. The pressure generated in the primer pocket, by the exploding primer, is greater than the pressure generated by the burning powder. Federal primers have a thin cup. I've heard of reloaders drilling the flash hole larger to cut down on that pressure. Also, a light hammer spring doesn't let the tip of the firing pin hold back the pressure like it should. I estimate that the pressure in the primer pocket gets to about 20,000 psi. Not very many square inches, but without a hardened bushing, not much strength there either. Anyways, that's my theory. Yes to Fed Primers. Thats all I've used...but never reduced spring. Stock springs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Dan Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 Anyone know about what a hardened bushing job costs? I am absolutely sure there is no gunsmith in my area that could do anything but add a bolt on bipod and rail to the gun, and I wouldn't even trust them to do that right. I appreciate all the answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 1 hour ago, Lunger Dan said: Anyone know about what a hardened bushing job costs? I am absolutely sure there is no gunsmith in my area that could do anything but add a bolt on bipod and rail to the gun, and I wouldn't even trust them to do that right. I appreciate all the answers. Call Nate Kiawa Jones and ask him. https://stevesgunz.com/ My Colt pistol smith buddy Bill Fuchs in Ten Sleep Wyoming can repair this - probably by TIG welding. He's an absolute artist at metal repair on guns. https://springcreekarmory.com/ Problem is, anyone that can do this work are months behind. Ahlman's charged us $200 each to weld the cheater. Four months to get them back. But we couldn't find anyone else to take on the job. BTW, What is the condition of the nose on the firing pin? Have you noticed and pierced primers? Hot gasses from pierced primers can cause this kind of erosion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 2 hours ago, Lunger Dan said: Anyone know about what a hardened bushing job costs? I am absolutely sure there is no gunsmith in my area that could do anything but add a bolt on bipod and rail to the gun, and I wouldn't even trust them to do that right. I appreciate all the answers. LD, I believe Three Cut is in NC. Maybe someone there can get you to him. He has a pretty good rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted August 24, 2021 Share Posted August 24, 2021 On 8/22/2021 at 3:00 PM, Warden Callaway said: Fat chance. Taylor's told us our Smoke Wagons weren't worth fixing. Interesting. I sent two Cimarron Firearm Ubertis back (years after purchased) which resulted in free repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Dan Posted August 24, 2021 Author Share Posted August 24, 2021 5 hours ago, Warden Callaway said: BTW, What is the condition of the nose on the firing pin? Have you noticed and pierced primers? Hot gasses from pierced primers can cause this kind of erosion. Firing pin is fine-there have been no pierced primers at all What is strange is, I have a Uberti model 1873 that I used for about 4-5 months then put away as a backup when I got the Scofield. So, that only had about 2-300 rounds through it, if that. It ALso has the moat around the firing pin hole-and I could swear now that I think about it...call me nuts...but thinking about it im pretty sure both came new with the slight moat around the firing pin hole. Anyone else buy one new that had the moat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 25, 2021 Share Posted August 25, 2021 By coincidence, I ran across a YouTube video of an original S&W with the same erosion problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Lunger Dan, Have you made any progress with getting your gun fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 I had this problem with my .44 Open Tops about5 years ago. Had "hardened " bushings installed and the problem continued. Sold the guns after explaining the issue to two pards looking for a project. The question is why this happens. I shoot BP with Federal primers. I wondered if the softer primers somehow were responsible. Don't see this problem with my two Colts. CP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Rich Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 On 8/24/2021 at 10:50 AM, Lunger Dan said: Firing pin is fine-there have been no pierced primers at all What is strange is, I have a Uberti model 1873 that I used for about 4-5 months then put away as a backup when I got the Scofield. So, that only had about 2-300 rounds through it, if that. It ALso has the moat around the firing pin hole-and I could swear now that I think about it...call me nuts...but thinking about it im pretty sure both came new with the slight moat around the firing pin hole. Anyone else buy one new that had the moat? Common with toggle link rifles, at least Uberti's. kR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunger Dan Posted August 31, 2021 Author Share Posted August 31, 2021 18 hours ago, Warden Callaway said: Lunger Dan, Have you made any progress with getting your gun fixed? Havn't figured out what to do yet...there was a guy on a marlin forum who did the bushing himself...may try that He listed bushing part that was 5/16 (.312) so he used a 5/16 aircraft drill and 5/16 dual end mill cut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 18 hours ago, Lunger Dan said: Havn't figured out what to do yet...there was a guy on a marlin forum who did the bushing himself...may try that He listed bushing part that was 5/16 (.312) so he used a 5/16 aircraft drill and 5/16 dual end mill cut Unless you have access to a mill, I wouldn't try a DIY fix. The hole for the bushing has to be perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 8 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said: Unless you have access to a mill, I wouldn't try a DIY fix. The hole for the bushing has to be perfect. THIS for fact! OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 I was scrounging around on the infernal net and found an interesting video and took a screen shot. This is a First Model Russian which is basically a S&W American. (The humpbacked finger tab model came out later.) What is interesting is it appears to have a recoil shield around the firing pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 2 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said: I was scrounging around on the infernal net and found an interesting video and took a screen shot. This is a First Model Russian which is basically a S&W American. (The humpbacked finger tab model came out later.) What is interesting is it appears to have a recoil shield around the firing pin. Can you post a link to the video? I'd sure like to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 It was at about five minutes into this video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 Sharp eye.. I watched that video when it was published and didn't notice the bushing. I'm wondering if it's factory or a repair? We need more examples I think. Maybe some Smith & Wesson collectors could know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Injun Ryder, SASS #36201L Posted September 1, 2021 Share Posted September 1, 2021 This is a pic of my S&W First Model Russian manufactured in 1873. . This is a S&W 38 Double Action manufactured in 1880/1881. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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