What would be the call?

[Dantankerous 4,258]

This almost happened but got me wondering what if.

 

BEEP! Shooter doing his thing. Shoots a string and starts to move to next shooting position.

 

As soon as shooter moves, a brasser who was not in the shooter's way lost control of the brassing stick (picker-upper thing) he was holding and it fell directly and perpendicularly into what was the shooter's path of travel except for only one second earlier the shooter had passed him. (This much did happen.)

 

What's the correct call/action if the brass picker had lost control of the brassing tool earlier and the equipment HAD fallen into the shooter's path either tripping the shooter, impeding the shooter's ability to move or worse, caused the shooter to fall?

 

This does not quite seem like an equipment malfunction to me because there was human error involved although none on the part of the shooter.

 

Stop the shooter and offer reshoot?

 

Let shooter finish and offer reshoot?

 

More options...

 

 

 

[Runamuck, SASS #49216L 51]

If the "picker-upper thing" impedes the shooter in any way, after stage is completed,  offer shooter a reshoot.

 

[Hoss 1,128]

Let him finish and offer reshoot. 
 

remind brassers to not be so overzealous in their duties!

 

If shooter fell or was really impeded it’s easy to take the reshoot. its a risk to take a reshoot for a minor delay. I’ve seen a guy have a decent,clean stage. Maybe lost 2 seconds due to an impediment. Takes the reshoot, Miss and a p! 
in some respects I think in that situation the shooter should be allows you take to better of the 2 times. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,772]

6 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Let him finish and offer reshoot. 
 

remind brassers to not be so overzealous in their duties!

 

If shooter fell or was really impeded it’s easy to take the reshoot. its a risk to take a reshoot for a minor delay. I’ve seen a guy have a decent,clean stage. Maybe lost 2 seconds due to an impediment. Takes the reshoot, Miss and a p! 

in some respects I think in that situation the shooter should be allows you take to better of the 2 times. 

 

 

That is NOT an option in a reshoot situation.

A shooter does NOT get to choose the better of the two times.

 

Quote

Reshoot – score recorded, the competitor starts over clean, carrying accrued safety penalties. Both scores turned in.

SHB p.46

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,685]

10 minutes ago, Hoss said:

in some respects I think in that situation the shooter should be allows you take to better of the 2 times.

Yer kidding... Right?

[Hoss 1,128]

1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That is NOT an option in a reshoot situation.

A shooter does NOT get to choose the better of the two times.

 

SHB p.46

I understand that. I just think it should be an option! I just hate to penalize shooter for something that was not his fault.  If I had an otherwise clean stage I it would take a pretty serious impediment for me to take a reshoot. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 2,709]

The choice that is to be offered is:   Take a Reshoot OR Keep original results.  Decision is made BEFORE the reshoot is performed.  If shooter chooses the reshoot, nothing (except penalties earned on the first run, which carry forward) from the first run counts.

 

Allowing "better of two runs" type of choices - lots of shooters will be taking that bet, for perhaps undeserved reasons.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Captain Bill Burt 3,013]

So, the overzealous posse member drops his brass picker upper, the shooter trips over it, falls and his loaded revolver falls out of his holster.  MDQ.

 

This is me doing my Wyatt impersonation.  Do I get a black star?

[Cassalong Hopidy 155]

Isn’t this interference by someone other than the TO?  Reshoots are only available on specifically delineated grounds.

[Hoss 1,128]

25 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

So, the overzealous posse member drops his brass picker upper, the shooter trips over it, falls and his loaded revolver falls out of his holster.  MDQ.

 

This is me doing my Wyatt impersonation.  Do I get a black star?

That would be a tough penalty to enforce. Shooter was impeded by outside factor (did not trip over his own feet) I’d be inclined to give the reshoot with no penalty. 
 

PWB, what say you?

[Hoss 1,128]

3 minutes ago, Cassalong Hopidy said:

Isn’t this interference by someone other than the TO?  Reshoots are only available on specifically delineated grounds.

That’s what has me wondering. Brass picker is not a TO, spotter or scorekeeper. If he said something that impeded shooter no call. But if he physically impeded shooter then I think that’s grounds for reshoot. But reshoots carry over safety penalties?? 

[Colorado Coffinmaker 3,377]

 

  What If  

 

Aw common.  Is there really any valid reason to argue an imaginary hypothetical it didn't really happen and the possibilities for a ride to Never Never Land ???  Other than just being bored with nothing better to do ??

 

OK.  It's a Holliday and yer off work.  And Bored.  And ya don't wanna mow the lawn, but Sheesh.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,772]

26 minutes ago, Hoss said:

That would be a tough penalty to enforce. Shooter was impeded by outside factor (did not trip over his own feet) I’d be inclined to give the reshoot with no penalty. 
 

PWB, what say you?

 

I would not penalize a shooter under those circumstances.

 

23 minutes ago, Hoss said:

That’s what has me wondering. Brass picker is not a TO, spotter or scorekeeper. If he said something that impeded shooter no call. But if he physically impeded shooter then I think that’s grounds for reshoot. But reshoots carry over safety penalties?? 

 

A brass-picker physically impeding the shooter would certainly be grounds for a reshoot.

The MD has the authority to negate an MSV in an "RO-assisted" reshoot situation. 

 

IMO, the basis for the reshoot could be "T/O failure" to maintain control of the line during stage engagement.
REF: RO3

[Dantankerous 4,258]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

  What If  

 

Aw common.  Is there really any valid reason to argue an imaginary hypothetical it didn't really happen and the possibilities for a ride to Never Never Land ???  Other than just being bored with nothing better to do ??

 

OK.  It's a Holliday and yer off work.  And Bored.  And ya don't wanna mow the lawn, but Sheesh.

 

Well, if you really want to go down that road...

 

I have seen the same thing happen when a spotter inadvertently dropped a wooden spotter stick Into the line of movement where the shooter was going to go. Somehow the timer operator caught that out of the corner of his eye and kicked it out of the way. So instead of a hypothetical by 1 second I'll offer another almost happened but fortunately a very attentive timer operator kept it from happening. Isn't that what safety is about? Precluding an event before somebody gets hurt?

[Hoss 1,128]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

  What If  

 

Aw common.  Is there really any valid reason to argue an imaginary hypothetical it didn't really happen and the possibilities for a ride to Never Never Land ???  Other than just being bored with nothing better to do ??

 

OK.  It's a Holliday and yer off work.  And Bored.  And ya don't wanna mow the lawn, but Sheesh.

I had a brasser interfere with a shooter once. Clearly in his way. Shooter got by but did lose time. I offered a re-shoot, he declined. 

[evil dogooder 928]

11 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 

Well, if you really want to go down that road...

 

I have seen the same thing happen when a spotter inadvertently dropped a wooden spotter stick Into the line of movement where the shooter was going to go. Somehow the timer operator caught that out of the corner of his eye and kicked it out of the way. So instead of a hypothetical by 1 second I'll offer another almost happened but fortunately a very attentive timer operator kept it from happening. Isn't that what safety is about? Precluding an event before somebody gets hurt?

The problem with that is people would complain if they didnt have a TO that caught it.  Same reason why it was changed that a TO can't stop a falling gun before it hits the ground. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,772]

7 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

The problem with that is people would complain if they didnt have a TO that caught it.  Same reason why it was changed that a TO can't stop a falling gun before it hits the ground. 

 

Not the same thing.
Shooter's action vs outside interference.
 

[Cassalong Hopidy 155]

2 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I would not penalize a shooter under those circumstances.

 

 

A brass-picker physically impeding the shooter would certainly be grounds for a reshoot.

The MD has the authority to negate an MSV in an "RO-assisted" reshoot situation. 

 

IMO, the basis for the reshoot could be "T/O failure" to maintain control of the line during stage engagement.
REF: RO3

PWB— I fully recognize your authority in these matters and appreciate all you do for us.  And I would also hate to see a shooter lose time (or worse) for such an occurrence.  That said, I have always understood that reshoots are available only for the three reasons stated in the rules.  The only one suggested, here,  RO interference impeding the progress of the shooter, has been declared limited to interference by the person who is then the TO.  Thus interference by other Range Officials, including Spotters, has been said insufficient.  So it is hard to understand how interference by someone who is not even a Range Official can give rise to a reshoot.  Respectfully, common sense does not dictate ascribing the brass picker’s dropping of his tools to the RO— by that approach a Spotter’s interference (for example, improper coaching) could be attributed to the TO as failure to properly maintain the line of engagement.  And it is easy to imagine all manner of other causes, human and natural, beyond the shooter’s ( and  even the TO’s) control  that might impede his progress, but I don’t see provision in the existing rules for reshoots in all unfortunate circumstances.  I would not object to a new catch-all category for interference impeding a shooter’s progress arising from such “ beyond control” causes— I just don’t see it there now.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733 583]

What's a spotter's stick? Same as the bandanna we give our spotters so you know who they are?

[Hells Comin 574]

After all has been settled have the brass picker hold up the shotgun targets for the next shooter.

[Major BS Walker Regulator 602]

So you take off to the next location during the stage and almost fall over a spectators dog who just slipped off it's leash and ran into you and you don't get a reshoot because it wasn't a range officer, spotter, etc.. Please sit down, take a few deep breaths and think about it for a moment. Just saying.

[Dantankerous 4,258]

50 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

What's a spotter's stick? Same as the bandanna we give our spotters so you know who they are?

 

Yes. Normally something about  the same size as a runner's baton used in track relay races. Sometimes painted very flamboyantly to help avoid misplacing when posses move to another stage.

[Captain Clark 725]

This scenario wasn’t hypothetical When it happened 4 years ago to me. As I turned to my right to transition to my SxS staged in the courthouse window, I was surprised by a brass picker oblivious to his surroundings bent down picking empties up off the boardwalk! So, I just stepped on his hand as I put all 240 lbs into a body slam in his torso area so my journey to the Window wasn’t delayed! Naw I didn’t permanently damage him, cause then I’d have to of replaced one of my very best friends!

I was offered a reshoot.

[John Kloehr 902]

8 minutes ago, Captain Clark said:

This scenario wasn’t hypothetical When it happened 4 years ago to me. As I turned to my right to transition to my SxS staged in the courthouse window, I was surprised by a brass picker oblivious to his surroundings bent down picking empties up off the boardwalk! So, I just stepped on his hand as I put all 240 lbs into a body slam in his torso area so my journey to the Window wasn’t delayed! Naw I didn’t permanently damage him, cause then I’d have to of replaced one of my very best friends!

I was offered a reshoot.

You may have edited 2 minutes ago for grammar, but I've got your back on spelling.

[Assassin 1,505]

I'm just wondering why people don't give the shooter enough room to run through the stage unimpeded. Why would anyone other than the shooter and the TO be on the actual firing line?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L 4,772]

3 hours ago, Cassalong Hopidy said:

I would not object to a new catch-all category for interference impeding a shooter’s progress arising from such “ beyond control” causes— I just don’t see it there now

 

Technically, I suppose such instances COULD also be covered under the "Cease Fire" regs (as are many other "outside influence" conditions).

Quote

“Cease Fire” or “STOP!” – The command called out by the CRO/TO or any witnessing Range Officer/Match Official at any time an unsafe condition develops. The shooter must stop shooting and stop moving immediately.

SHB p.20

 

REF also:
RO1 p.74

RO2 p.9

 

[Major BS Walker Regulator 602]

1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Technically, I suppose such instances COULD also be covered under the "Cease Fire" regs (as are many other "outside influence" conditions).

SHB p.20

 

REF also:
RO1 p.74

RO2 p.9

 

Forgot about that one for a moment. big guy

[Hoss 1,128]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

I'm just wondering why people don't give the shooter enough room to run through the stage unimpeded. Why would anyone other than the shooter and the TO be on the actual firing line?

It happens 

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,685]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

It happens 

Assassin had been in the game a long time... Knows it happens. He, like me, wonder WHY it happens...

 

[Captain Bill Burt 3,013]

9 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Assassin had been in the game a long time... Knows it happens. He, like me, wonder WHY it happens...

 

LOL.  I suspect all three of us know 'why' it happens. Cranial rectal inversion on the part of the person who's in a place he doesn't belong.

[Phantom, SASS #54973 4,685]

56 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

LOL.  I suspect all three of us know 'why' it happens. Cranial rectal inversion on the part of the person who's in a place he doesn't belong.

Yeah I know... Was kind of a rhetorical question

[Assassin 1,505]

What happened! Let's pass a rule that makes everyone stay 5 feet or more behind the shooter, only the TO can be closer. Stay out of the shooters space.

You impede the shooter around here and you might get run over with all the movement we have at our local matches.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 1,026]

15 minutes ago, Assassin said:

What happened! Let's pass a rule that makes everyone stay 5 feet or more behind the shooter, only the TO can be closer. Stay out of the shooters space.

You impede the shooter around here and you might get run over with all the movement we have at our local matches.

 

Round here...state law says 6 feet. It is the COVIDs...

[Mister Badly 437]

I like WATCHING the other shooters. Sometimes I learn a different way to shoot a stage. The brass can wait a few seconds.

[Yusta B. 1,429]

1 hour ago, Mister Badly said:

I like WATCHING the other shooters. Sometimes I learn a different way to shoot a stage. The brass can wait a few seconds.

 

Yes .. ^^  I don't particularly care for people (except TO) moving around the firing line during my blazingly fast stumble thru the stage.