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What would be the call?


Dantankerous

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16 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Assassin had been in the game a long time... Knows it happens. He, like me, wonder WHY it happens...

;)

 

6 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

LOL.  I suspect all three of us know 'why' it happens. Cranial rectal inversion on the part of the person who's in a place he doesn't belong.

 

5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah I know... Was kind of a rhetorical question:lol:

No!  It's not a rhetorical question.  It happens because the TO is not properly controlling the activities on the stage.  If brass pickers are a problem, the TO needs to address it.  If the spotters are a problem on the stage, the TO needs to address it.  If the spectators are a problem, the TO needs to address it!  The Timer Operator is the chief Range Officer in charge of the stage,  The buck stops there.  

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

 

 

No!  It's not a rhetorical question.  It happens because the TO is not properly controlling the activities on the stage.  If brass pickers are a problem, the TO needs to address it.  If the spotters are a problem on the stage, the TO needs to address it.  If the spectators are a problem, the TO needs to address it!  The Timer Operator is the chief Range Officer in charge of the stage,  The buck stops there.  

Ooookay Griff...

 

The rhetorical question was why people do certain things...kinda like... stoopid human nature.

 

Don't need a lecture on proper RO'ing.

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If the picker was dropped in the path of the shooter in the direction he was moving, wouldn't stopping the shooter before he tripped while carrying a loaded gun be a consideration? If something happens that's merely a possible distraction causing the shooter to hesitate before finishing, then offer the reshoot. Something dropped in his path that he may or may not notice would be a safety issue.

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34 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

If the picker was dropped in the path of the shooter in the direction he was moving, wouldn't stopping the shooter before he tripped while carrying a loaded gun be a consideration? If something happens that's merely a possible distraction causing the shooter to hesitate before finishing, then offer the reshoot. Something dropped in his path that he may or may not notice would be a safety issue.

The shooter is focused on the targets.

The TO is focused on what the shooter is doing at the time.

The spotters are watching for misses.

 

A alligator could wander onto the stage and none of these would notice till they fell over it.

Hat fly off and get in the shooters line of sight.

Umbrellas tear loose from carts and go flying across the stage.

 

Let's use some common sense here and refer to the RO-III manual.

 

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1 hour ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

The shooter is focused on the targets.

The TO is focused on what the shooter is doing at the time.

The spotters are watching for misses.

 

A alligator could wander onto the stage and none of these would notice till they fell over it.

Hat fly off and get in the shooters line of sight.

Umbrellas tear loose from carts and go flying across the stage.

 

Let's use some common sense here and refer to the RO-III manual.

 

Common sense tells me that if something is dropped in the path of a shooter who may trip over it and there's a minimum of 4 people following along with him ( spotters and RO) that IF they do see it, stop the shooter. Of course if they don't notice it then nothing can be done. But if they do see the tripping hazard the shooter might be stopped in time. Or they can notice it, say nothing, and hope no one is injured.

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On 9/7/2020 at 10:52 AM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That is NOT an option in a reshoot situation.

A shooter does NOT get to choose the better of the two times.

 

SHB p.46

So if there is paper scoring being utilized, how would you record the second score?   

And also, in some digital scoring programs, you can only record one score per shooter per stage.  How do you handle this?

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23 minutes ago, The Outlaw Travis James said:

So if there is paper scoring being utilized, how would you record the second score?   

Write it in at the bottom of the scoresheet with a notation (e.g. asterisk) by the first score & "reshoot" by the second one.

 

And also, in some digital scoring programs, you can only record one score per shooter per stage.  How do you handle this?

I have no idea...I'm not a Scorekeeper.

SASS scoring programs should have a provision for that since it is listed as a standard procedure (SHB p.46)

 

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1 minute ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:


In CAS Scoring and ACES, you can edit the score after one has been recorded. 

Yes but when you edit the score, the first one is erased in both programs.  That means you loose the first score.  

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7 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

We have been using a new program and I am not sure if it has that ability.  I will check and see.  

 

Another question, what is the purpose of recording both scores? 

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Just now, The Outlaw Travis James said:

Yes but when you edit the score, the first one is erased in both programs.  That means you loose the first score.  

Correct. Why do you need more than one score? By accepting the reshoot, the shooter has discarded the first score. 

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4 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

What program are you using?

CAS Scoring and we are working with the developers to make it even better.   We are using it at about 5 or 6 clubs down here in Florida and is has been really good.

 

https://129bit.com/cas-scoring/

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Just now, The Outlaw Travis James said:

CAS Scoring and we are working with the developers to make it even better.   We are using it at about 5 or 6 clubs down here in Florida and is has been really good.

 

https://129bit.com/cas-scoring/

We use it too. They can tell you how to edit scores. 

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9 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Correct. Why do you need more than one score? By accepting the reshoot, the shooter has discarded the first score. 

PWB commented earlier in the thread that you are to record both scores when a reshoot is taken.  I was asking how to do it.  

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On 9/7/2020 at 6:29 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Technically, I suppose such instances COULD also be covered under the "Cease Fire" regs (as are many other "outside influence" conditions).

SHB p.20

 

REF also:
RO1 p.74

RO2 p.9

 

 

Wouldn't it be covered under this one? 

 

"Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if
there is a range failure
(failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer
interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted."

 

I always thought the brass picker was a Range Officer, but I guess not.  In that case I say the brass picker is a prop. 

 

OK maybe not really, but it does seem to fall under a general range failure beyond the competitor's control. 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Wouldn't it be covered under this one? 

 

"Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions. However, if
there is a range failure
(failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer
interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot may be granted."

 

I always thought the brass picker was a Range Officer, but I guess not.  In that case I say the brass picker is a prop. 

 

OK maybe not really, but it does seem to fall under a general range failure beyond the competitor's control. 

I agree is is a "Range Failure."

 

Still I would lean towards PWB's citation of "Cease Fire," or a stage "Stop." That is on the assumption the TO saw the pending trip hazard and halted the stage; and that is interference and it is due to an event beyond the shooter's control.

 

Is a Brass Picker an RO? It certainly seems anyone that close to -- and involved in -- stage operations should be an RO but that might not be guaranteed at every local shoot. At my first full shoot, I wasmhelping pick brass and I have not even had RO1.

 

If I had been doing so and I had a picker stick and I dropped it in the path of a shooter, I would have called "Cease Fire." And that is an event beyond the shooter's control.

 

I think the right call is for anyone to call "Cease Fire" for the potential trip hazard, thus a reshoot would be offered.

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