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Kind of wish I  hadn't said "if and a big if" not saying that it needs to be done. I'm not going to stop shooting frontiersman just because other people are shooting a hammerless shotgun. That being said I'm out of this thread!

Rafe

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Posted (edited)

I shoot several different categories!  I’m a proponent of keeping Frontiersman, as much as can be, the way it is. It’s a unique category, frequented by dedicated shooters who represent SASS extremely well!  I could go along with going to hammer shotguns, (I’ve always used a hammer double in Frontiersman) if the majority of cap ‘n’ ballers agreed.

 

I also worked to make FCGF a recognized category. I didn’t, at first, even shoot the category, but it was important to many of those that I shot with , so I switched over and shot with those folks.  Took a few years to get it done, but we did it!

 

 I also feel that for the most part, what we have is pretty damned good! YES!!  There are things that I would like to see changed, but that is not the question here!!

 

 The RO committee should be left essentially as it is!  Membership on the committee could be rotated. Perhaps it would be more transparent concerning how decisions are reached. With the WB stepping back, will the RO committee be the last word? But here I am suggesting changes!!

 

Are the TGs going to have the final say so on rules changes and such now?  Is that something we, (as paying customers) should have a voice in?

 

Categories like Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter and Frontiersman were established through the efforts of those who wanted them!  They proved popular enough for the powers that be to make them official categories!! Barring some safety issue, or something unforeseen, they should remain as they were envisioned by those who made the effort to establish them!!

 

Creeker!!  It’s a valid question!! If some folks can’t focus on the matter at hand, or can’t stay on topic, it ain’t your fault!!

Edited by Blackwater 53393

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52 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I'm going to leave it be.

 

The overwhelming responses I'm hearing are,

"SASS is going to do whatever they are going to do.  There's no point to asking these questions"

or

"I really don' t care what happens.  I just don't want any changes to MY category or the way I play the game"

 

Apparently most would rather live under a dictatorship than offer opinions or productively work toward change.

Good luck.

 

 

What about a survey included in the shooter's packet of the matches that you run?

There's a lots of SASS shooters that are not on the forum.

Respectfully, 

OLG 

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Kinda hate hijacking...but what the hell.

 

Your logic escapes me. By your position, no rules can ever be change because some mystic deity made the rules.

 

Phantom

I could be wrong but I doubt it was a mystic deity that decided the Frontiersman category.  As I posted earlier, a group of shooters developed and petitioned to have Frontiersman created as a category of their creation.  I was not in that group, but I like playing the Frontiersman category.  C&B pistols make me giggle and can make me upset all in the same stage.  If we switch to hammer guns that is okay, but not what I signed up for when I joined the category.  If we are discussing untouchable changes, don’t alienate your base by changes to the rules to allow guns that were not allowed in their category of choosing when they started shooting that category.  I assimilated to the Frontiersman rules.   There can be changes, I don’t think changes to the category requirements is a good move.

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4 minutes ago, Tucker McNeely said:

I could be wrong but I doubt it was a mystic deity that decided the Frontiersman category.  As I posted earlier, a group of shooters developed and petitioned to have Frontiersman created as a category of their creation.  I was not in that group, but I like playing the Frontiersman category.  C&B pistols make me giggle and can make me upset all in the same stage.  If we switch to hammer guns that is okay, but not what I signed up for when I joined the category.  If we are discussing untouchable changes, don’t alienate your base by changes to the rules to allow guns that were not allowed in their category of choosing when they started shooting that category.  I assimilated to the Frontiersman rules.   There can be changes, I don’t think changes to the category requirements is a good move.

My comment had nothing to do with any specific category. It had to do with the premise that rules implemented by the original designers should be sacrosanct. 

 

Phantom

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So, the only acceptable response would have been, "There are no untouchables!"?

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1 hour ago, Nasty Newt # 7365 said:

So, the only acceptable response would have been, "There are no untouchables!"?

For some...that seems to be correct.

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Posted (edited)

Double Tap

Edited by Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474

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12 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

This is a thread on what it is about SASS that you feel shouldn't be touched...and I'm glad you want to make it more difficult for old folks/ladies/kids/etc to enjoy the game...oh, and you want to beat up targets ;)

 

Perhaps you should venture out from your group of folks and talk with others that you normally don't associate with.

 

Lastly, define "traditional style match" please...but perhaps you should start your own thread.

 

Phantom

 

Long ago we decided to only use AR-500 steel targets. On chain or straps, they swing with the hit and are 10+years old with no visible damage.

As for old folks, I'm 76, wear knee braces for arthritis while waiting for two total knee replacements, dealing with cancer and a ticker problem, but Hey, I'm upright and above ground.

I shoot regularly shoot with 4 different posses up here that try to do the fun things: Throw a knife; shoot a derringer; fling a bottle; drag a corpse to the pig pen, shoot a buffalo rifle for a bonus, throw a stick of "dynamite"; cowboy golf; cowboy whalers, drag a coffin, etc.

Our ladies, Buckeroos and Buckerettes don't seem to have any issues handling the stage requirements

Sorry for the long off topic post, but you asked.

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On 7/8/2020 at 8:28 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Lots of ideas... Just like the other posts. But I thought this was about "untouchables"?

 

Here are a few:

 

No baseball caps

No Shady Bradys

 

Uhhhh....oh, no tee shirts.

 

There ya go!

 

Phantom

I know the clothing is not the only thing you find important.  I think you can come up with more.

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Untouchables. 
I would say the guns of SASS. The rest of it well it is what it is I can take it or leave it.

 

The Cowboy dress code is prohibiting to new potential shooters, they don’t want to dress cowboy. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Marshal TKD, Sass # 36984L said:

Untouchables. 
I would say the guns of SASS. The rest of it well it is what it is I can take it or leave it.

 

The Cowboy dress code is prohibiting to new potential shooters, they don’t want to dress cowboy. 

 

Well just my 2 cents but if “they” don’t want to dress cowboy then they should find another shooting sport, to change that part of the sport would absolutely in my opinion ruin CAS, the dress code is definitely  untouchable.  SCJ

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Can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Don't over-think certain things:  If we are called "Single Action Shooting Society," why in the world would we allow anything but single action weapons?  I don't go to a pancake house when I am hungry for pizza.

 

"The Cowboy dress code is prohibiting to new potential shooters, they don’t want to dress cowboy." - I understand that the dress code is less important to some than to others but why call it "Cowboy Action Shooting" if there are no cowboys shooting.  Again, pancake house for pizza.

 

Don't advertise something that you can't deliver.  Change/modification is inevitable in any business but don't do so much that you lose your identity in the market.

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Generally speaking, I think the "Main Match" is fine as it is.   But I think more creativity in side matches beyond just speed this, that, and the other thing, is needed.   Side matches that allow for different combinations of guns, especially ones that are of the cowboy era but are currently not allowed, could make for some interesting variations.

 

Also, again in side matches, there are some not allowed guns that could fit quite well into existing side matches with no changing of the rules other than to allow them.  The Winchester 95 comes to mind.  [Open category long range side matches don't seem to exist.]

 

What about the main match?   Allowing the 93-97 shotgun would be okay, and other than the Marlin for safety reasons, I think the 97 is the only allowable pump shotgun rule is worth looking at.  There are a handful of old time pumps that are perfectly safe to use.   I also think that 87 and 97 shooters should have the option to stoke on the clock on every stage.   Many probably won't, some will.   It's hardly ever written into the stage description, so why not just allow it?  It has no advantage.

 

Don't think anything needs to be revisited on main match rifles.

 

Main Match pistols?  Allow the Mares leg.   :P

 

As a wild card, what about things like old west DA revolvers, but only if used in single action mode?

 

NO Broomhandles.   That's too much of a stretch.

 

You said "anything" so I mentioned anything I could think of.   I do think the most tweaking that can be done in is the side match arena.   But no harm can come from just talking about other options.

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12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

> snip <

Apparently most would rather live under a dictatorship than offer opinions or productively work toward change.

Good luck.

> snip <

Whoa mama ... what's this??

I guess you know what that statement sounds like ... ("if you don't want to play my way then ....").

If you have changes "YOU" would like to see ... put them out here and let the discussion begin. 

You are "supposed" to be talking to friends that have a common interest. (they may be scarce ... don't waste any of them) ... 

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11 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

Generally speaking, I think the "Main Match" is fine as it is.   But I think more creativity in side matches beyond just speed this, that, and the other thing, is needed.   Side matches that allow for different combinations of guns, especially ones that are of the cowboy era but are currently not allowed, could make for some interesting variations.

 

Also, again in side matches, there are some not allowed guns that could fit quite well into existing side matches with no changing of the rules other than to allow them.  The Winchester 95 comes to mind.  [Open category long range side matches don't seem to exist.]

 

What about the main match?   Allowing the 93-97 shotgun would be okay, and other than the Marlin for safety reasons, I think the 97 is the only allowable pump shotgun rule is worth looking at.  There are a handful of old time pumps that are perfectly safe to use.   I also think that 87 and 97 shooters should have the option to stoke on the clock on every stage.   Many probably won't, some will.   It's hardly ever written into the stage description, so why not just allow it?  It has no advantage.

 

Don't think anything needs to be revisited on main match rifles.

 

Main Match pistols?  Allow the Mares leg.   :P

 

As a wild card, what about things like old west DA revolvers, but only if used in single action mode?

 

NO Broomhandles.   That's too much of a stretch.

 

You said "anything" so I mentioned anything I could think of.   I do think the most tweaking that can be done in is the side match arena.   But no harm can come from just talking about other options.

The thread is about what you don't want to see changed (untouchables).

 

Oy....

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1 hour ago, Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 said:

I know the clothing is not the only thing you find important.  I think you can come up with more.

Nope.

 

The rest is up for debate/change/enhancement. See what comes out of the discussion... Maybe nothing, maybe something exciting.

 

Phantom

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4 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Whoa mama ... what's this??

I guess you know what that statement sounds like ... ("if you don't want to play my way then ....").

If you have changes "YOU" would like to see ... put them out here and let the discussion begin. 

You are "supposed" to be talking to friends that have a common interest. (they may be scarce ... don't waste any of them) ... 

No, he was asking for untouchables... Just the opposite of what you just stated.

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No, he was asking for untouchables... Just the opposite of what you just stated.

You are absoutely correct ..

... BUT ... the "if you don't want to play my way there must be something wrong with you" (Hillary type) statements almost always shut down any productive responses. 

If people want to play ... they will find a way to play ... What other motivation is important?? You always find time/resources to do what "you want to do". 

Unless you have a lot of BBQs at your house or are into Cowboy Action Shooting .. what else are you going to with these types of firearms??

 

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35 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

You are absoutely correct ..

... BUT ... the "if you don't want to play my way there must be something wrong with you" (Hillary type) statements almost always shut down any productive responses. 

If people want to play ... they will find a way to play ... What other motivation is important?? You always find time/resources to do what "you want to do". 

Unless you have a lot of BBQs at your house or are into Cowboy Action Shooting .. what else are you going to with these types of firearms??

 

Well...taking statements out of context is also very "Hillary" like.

 

Typical of the Wire and other SM forums. Question posed regarded "Untouchables" in an apparent attempt to find a population of items that should perhaps be excluded from discussions of change within SASS. Yet folks get on the thread and start spewing all sorts of things that have nothing to do with the question of the thread.

 

Aaaaand then the OP is attacked for showing his frustration at the nonsense that was being posted...too funny...

 

Phantom

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5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Well...taking statements out of context is also very "Hillary" like.

 

Typical of the Wire and other SM forums. Question posed regarded "Untouchables" in an apparent attempt to find a population of items that should perhaps be excluded from discussions of change within SASS. Yet folks get on the thread and start spewing all sorts of things that have nothing to do with the question of the thread.

 

Aaaaand then the OP is attacked for showing his frustration at the nonsense that was being posted...too funny...

 

Phantom

Yeah .. well ... here is the whole post ..

Don't want to take anything out of contex ..

> start quote <

I'm going to leave it be.

 

The overwhelming responses I'm hearing are,

"SASS is going to do whatever they are going to do.  There's no point to asking these questions"

or

"I really don' t care what happens.  I just don't want any changes to MY category or the way I play the game"

 

Apparently most would rather live under a dictatorship than offer opinions or productively work toward change.

Good luck.

> end quote <

... AND ... I would prefer to hear the OP's opinion of what he would like changed ... 

He uses the words in his post "work toward change" ...

 

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10 hours ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

 

Long ago we decided to only use AR-500 steel targets. On chain or straps, they swing with the hit and are 10+years old with no visible damage.

As for old folks, I'm 76, wear knee braces for arthritis while waiting for two total knee replacements, dealing with cancer and a ticker problem, but Hey, I'm upright and above ground.

 

I shoot regularly shoot with 4 different posses up here that try to do the fun things: Throw a knife; shoot a derringer; fling a bottle; drag a corpse to the pig pen, shoot a buffalo rifle for a bonus, throw a stick of "dynamite"; cowboy golf; cowboy whalers etc.

Our ladies, Buckeroos and Buckerettes don't seem to have any issues handling the stage requirements

Sorry for the long off topic post, but you asked.

From what I've seen it's not normally the old, young, or infirm that whine about stuff.   It's those who are looking for excuse to validate their opinions.     Just like those that always whine about new things not being cowboy yet are proponents of holsters, guns, action work that no cowboy would ever use. 

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The 170 rule, the traveling rule and the one about cocking the pistol while drawing. There are other absolutes involving safety, but OTW pretty much can be debated. 

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3 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

Yeah .. well ... here is the whole post ..

Don't want to take anything out of contex ..

> start quote <

I'm going to leave it be.

 

The overwhelming responses I'm hearing are,

"SASS is going to do whatever they are going to do.  There's no point to asking these questions"

or

"I really don' t care what happens.  I just don't want any changes to MY category or the way I play the game"

 

Apparently most would rather live under a dictatorship than offer opinions or productively work toward change.

Good luck.

> end quote <

... AND ... I would prefer to hear the OP's opinion of what he would like changed ... 

He uses the words in his post "work toward change" ...

 

The context of the whole thread. 

 

Geeze...

 

And please tell me you're not one of those that say "If you don't have a solution, don't bring me the problem" kinda guys.

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On 7/8/2020 at 9:28 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Lots of ideas... Just like the other posts. But I thought this was about "untouchables"?

 

Here are a few:

 

No baseball caps

No Shady Bradys

 

Uhhhh....oh, no tee shirts.

 

There ya go!

 

Phantom

No sneakers or tennis shoes or whatever you call them now!

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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

The context of the whole thread. 

 

Geeze...

 

And please tell me you're not one of those that say "If you don't have a solution, don't bring me the problem" kinda guys.

No ... just asking "what IS the problem" ??!? 

Is that "too funny"??

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6 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

No sneakers or tennis shoes or whatever you call them now!

Well dang - forgot those items.

 

Yes, that rule should be maintained too.

 

;)

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4 minutes ago, Patagonia Pete said:

No ... just asking "what IS the problem" ??!? 

Is that "too funny"??

I'm sorry,  can you restate your question?

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On 7/9/2020 at 8:14 AM, Shooting Bull said:

CHANGE:   No movement while shooting.  No, not all clubs have the ability to host a match that allows shooting while moving.  I firmly believe clubs that do have that ability should be allowed to. 

 

 

We should be able to shoot from a couch...

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Posted (edited)
On 7/8/2020 at 8:28 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No Shady Bradys

 

 

 

Never understood the hatred for shady bradys.  I consider them replica short stroked decorated cowboy hats.

 

My untouchable would be the costuming guidelines, but if I'm honest, they're not completely untouchable.  We just shouldn't do away with them.  Other than shady bradys they're pretty much perfect now.  Most everyone looks cowboyish and new people are not turned away for lack of a costume. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

And please tell me you're not one of those that say "If you don't have a solution, don't bring me the problem" kinda guys.

 

I hate that so much.  As if you need to be an expert on a subject to see that something's wrong. 

 

Edited by Ramblin Gambler
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With regard to the "no shooting while moving" comments, I honestly think that allowing for some limited movement while shooting at clubs that can safely design such stages is not a bad idea.  Not every club would be able to design movement into a stage, and there is no requirement that they do so, but if you've got deep, wide bays and a particular club wants to occasionally incorporate some movement, why not?  Each club will always do its shoots a little differently depending on how their bays are built and decorated, and variety is a good thing.  

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I know this isn't an untouchable. We all have deep respect for Roy and Gene and all the cowboys of that era. However, I'm 61 and saw very few of those shows when I was growing up. We need to move forward. Let's hear some rock n' roll and get something exciting going. Good grief, the shoots have little energy in the air.

How can we make things exciting and get some high energy going like "happy hour" on Friday evening. Our matches are suffering from worn out themes,  no one cares about stories and starting lines. A total re-branding is needed, the old stuff worked 20 years back. Now we need to make things inviting for the next generations.

 

Or, let's stand at a table and shoot a rifle, take two steps laterally and shoot our pistols. Then, grab the shotgun and shoot 4 shotgun knock down targets. The boredom of the none movement crap wears me out. If your range doesn't allow movement, fix it or find another place to shoot. 

 

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I may be one of the hardest rockers in SASS.  No brag...

Perhaps some of the Southern Rock would fit, but even though I dig me some AC/DC and Aerosmith as well as Jethro Tull and even a little KISS, I ain’t so sure it has a place in COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING.

 

I don’t have a problem with some movement, but a track meet ain’t the best for every stage and as I’ve said before, something for everyone is more like what we need!!!

 

The match I’m going to this weekend is just that!! Something for EVERYONE!!  Top competition, a stage or two that challenge your head, a stage or two to run and gun, equal opportunity for the southpaws, one or two where you only take a few steps, a nearly never ending party that lasts the better part of a week, and a smile that stays on peoples’ faces for long after the shoot is over!!

 

We have current and former world champions that make that shoot THE match that they WILL NOT MISS!! The energy mixes so well with the laid back atmosphere that everyone leaves satisfied.  If you leave Black Gold sad, hungry, or sober, IT’S YOUR OWN DANG FAULT!!

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

hough I dig me some AC/DC and Aerosmith as well as Jethro Tull and even a little KISS, I ain’t so sure it has a place in COWBOY ACTION

See, even our Rock-n Roll is old!!!

 

:mellow:

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