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Posted (edited)

T W wrote " You don't HAVE to have the most expensive slicked up guns to participate. " .  But you do to win or even be competitive ,  you Cant' win in this sport without spending between $6,000.00 and $10,000.00 on equipment including gunsmith fees and shipping, FFL fees etc. How much will you have to spend on ammo just to get good enough to get honorable mention at a national shoot.  I've heard stories about shooting thousands of rounds a week and traveling every week for years to get good enough to be in the hunt to win.  I'm in it because I love western movies, guns and I can afford slicked up guns and shoot locally with some of the finest people on earth.  I know I'll never win a major match, maybe never even shoot in one but I'll have fun, this is about having fun right.  This isn't a cheap sport in fact it is an expensive sport.  Any pro winner type like to post how much you spend each year just to shoot and win?  Make it fun people will come, after all you all are some really great people to spend time with.

Edited by Buck Double-Ought Shot
removed a couple of sentences

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

You don't HAVE to have the most expensive slicked up guns to participate.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Buck Double-Ought Shot said:

T W wrote " You don't HAVE to have the most expensive slicked up guns to participate. "  How long has it been since you tried to shoot a match with stock guns.   I don't know you but I'll bet you don't shoot cheap stock guns.  You Cant' win in this sport without spending between $6,000.00 and $10,000.00 on equipment including gunsmith fees and shipping, FFL fees etc. How much will you have to spend on ammo to get good enough to get honorable mention at a national shoot.  I've heard stories about shoot thousands of rounds a week and travel every week for years to get good enough to be in the hunt to win.  I'm in it because I love western movies and I can afford slicked up guns and shoot locally with some of the finest people on earth.  This isn't a cheap sport in fact it is an expensive sport.  Any pro winner type like to post how much you spend each year just to shoot and win?  Make it fun people will come after all you all are some really great people to spend time with.

 

TW used the word 'participate'.   He didn't say anything about winning or being competitive.

 

Heck, most of us pretty much realize that to be competitive, it helps to have some nicely tuned guns and such.

And to be a winner, it takes some serious practicing with those nicely tuned guns.

 

But winning and/or even being competitive is a far cry from 'participating'.

And a person can 'participate' with stock guns.   Many of us started out with 'stock guns' and used them for the first couple years.

And when we were able to start getting those guns finely tuned and slicked somewhat, it was usually one gun at a time.

 

Besides, folks like TW probably has a sponsor (rich friend, country music star) in Nashville that pays for his guns and ammo.

 

..........Widder

 

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

The idea of more time together has been floated.  I'll go the opposite direction.  How about more options to shoot through?  Perhaps with an additional fee to make up for not doing posse chores. 

 

Many of our shooters are retired and spending a nice morning and afternoon shooting and then later eating and drinking with friends is what they want.  I don't think that's the case for all of our shooters though.  Younger shooters can be impatient with an entire day on the range, and those of us still raising children can struggle to allocate 4 or 5 days a week spent entirely at the range.  

And yet they don't give a second thought to spending all day at a softball tourney or 5+ hrs on the golf course. Priorities, priorities.

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Buck Double-Ought Shot said:

T W wrote " You don't HAVE to have the most expensive slicked up guns to participate. " .  But you do to win or even be competitive ,  you Cant' win in this sport without spending between $6,000.00 and $10,000.00 on equipment including gunsmith fees and shipping, FFL fees etc. How much will you have to spend on ammo just to get good enough to get honorable mention at a national shoot.  I've heard stories about shooting thousands of rounds a week and traveling every week for years to get good enough to be in the hunt to win.  I'm in it because I love western movies, guns and I can afford slicked up guns and shoot locally with some of the finest people on earth.  I know I'll never win a major match, maybe never even shoot in one but I'll have fun, this is about having fun right.  This isn't a cheap sport in fact it is an expensive sport.  Any pro winner type like to post how much you spend each year just to shoot and win?  Make it fun people will come, after all you all are some really great people to spend time with.

That's a quote taken out of context to what you replied. But. Since you brought it up, I will follow up. Practice. I can tell you for a fact the world record gunfighter speed pistol record was set with pistols that were not short stroked. Heck, they even had stiff springs in them. Practice. The fastest 97 run I was witness to (6 shots in 3.82) was done with a shotgun that wasn't super slicked up. Practice. Some people would verge on calling it pretty stiff. 

Notice, I said "the most expensive" slicked up guns. 

Practice.

Put a 15.00 lever spring in your 1873

Practice.

2 10.00 springs in your ruger pistols

Practice.

Ream your skb shotgun chambers with a 20.00 Drexel and brake hone

Practice.

Voila' competitive

Stock guns- Missouri Lefty and Matt Black could use slingshots and out shoot most of us.

Practice.

Edited by Tennessee williams
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Posted (edited)

Yul touched on a point that I fully agree with.

Persons of color are not especially common in any shooting sport - but even less so within our own.

 

As some may know; my wife, Painted Lady is black.

I can count on one hand the number of times she has seen another person of color at a match - including state matches and EOT.

 

Some of this aversion may be cultural; but when we admit we are primarily an old white guy game AND the common refrain even from old white guys is, "I never knew about this game - never heard of it until...."

 

How on earth do we expect to grow if our core doesn't know we exist; much less a young affluent person of color?

 

A famous bank robber once said, when asked why he robbed banks, "because that's where the money is".

 

We need to ACTIVELY go where the next cowboy shooters are - not simply hope they find us.

 

The definition of insanity is repeating the same actions and expecting a different outcome.

 

Let's explore all our options and then...

Let's try doing something different.

Edited by Creeker, SASS #43022
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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

That's a quote taken out of context to what you replied. But. Since you brought it up, I will follow up. Practice. I can tell you for a fact the world record gunfighter speed pistol record was set with pistols that were not short stroked. Heck, they even had stiff springs in them. Practice. The fastest 97 run I was witness to (6 shots in 3.82) was done with a shotgun that wasn't super slicked up. Practice. Some people would verge on calling it pretty stiff. 

Notice, I said "the most expensive" slicked up guns. 

Practice.

Put a 15.00 lever spring in your 1873

Practice.

2 10.00 springs in your ruger pistols

Practice.

Ream your skb shotgun chambers with a 20.00 Drexel and brake hone

Practice.

Voila' competitive

Stock guns- Missouri Lefty and Matt Black could use slingshots and out shoot most of us.

Practice.

 

 

Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting that if someone wants to win they'll need to practice?

 

Asking for a friend...

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TYREL,

I think TW has gotten delusional.   Hurry, feed him a DQ treat.

 

..........Widder

 

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36 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

 

Just out of curiosity, are you suggesting that if someone wants to win they'll need to practice?

 

Asking for a friend...

Ty knows how to read between the lines.

29 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

TYREL,

I think TW has gotten delusional.   Hurry, feed him a DQ treat.

 

..........Widder

 

Yes, I have and I do need a DQ treat.

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TW I wasn't trying to attack or be critical of you or what you said.  I was just pointing out this isn't a cheap sport and it costs big bucks to get "race" guns and the amount of practice and ammo it takes to be good or great.  I think I might owe you a DQ treat of your choice.  As Brad Pitt said in Inglorious Bastards " you know how to get to Carnege Hall-- Practice Practice Practice"

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BUCK,

You've just earned you a life long friend.   'DQ' is TW's middle name.  Some folks just call him 'DQ Williams'.

 

The more you realize the value of his life long friendship, the more you'll wish you're 90 years old..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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TW's  'practice' sessions consist of working on his transitions between a spoon and a straw!  :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Buck Double-Ought Shot said:

TW I wasn't trying to attack or be critical of you or what you said.  I was just pointing out this isn't a cheap sport and it costs big bucks to get "race" guns and the amount of practice and ammo it takes to be good or great.  I think I might owe you a DQ treat of your choice.  As Brad Pitt said in Inglorious Bastards " you know how to get to Carnege Hall-- Practice Practice Practice"

No problem Buck! You don't owe me a nanner split, but if I were to get one it'd be caramel on both ends with pineapple in the middle. Don't let them mess it up by puttin the pineapple on the end. Messes up the flavor!

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44 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

TW's  'practice' sessions consist of working on his transitions between a spoon and a straw!  :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

That was the old days Widder. Now I use a straw continuously while I spoon it.

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For “years” our club manned a SASS membership booth at our local gun show. Some people would stop to talk and we would ask do you know about SASS? We would get some would respond yes because they saw some video of world champion matches. Their perception was this sport would not be any fun unless you shoot lightning stages. We inform them there is more to SASS then being a world champion.

Also is there a perception that people have to spend 6K + to purchase firearms to have fun shooting SASS?

We talk about maybe attracting families. How about filming (with permission) a family that is shooting together at a major match or a picture in a major magazine?  

I have read a lot of ideas in this thread and they are good. As always the rules subject comes up. Yes there may be a better way to deal with rule changes, clarifications and updates for the HB.

 The bottom line is SASS needs to increase the membership with a major push for trying to bring back old members and to get new members. This should be a top priority!!!!  

Nawlins

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12 minutes ago, Nawlins Kid said:

For “years” our club manned a SASS membership booth at our local gun show. Some people would stop to talk and we would ask do you know about SASS? We would get some would respond yes because they saw some video of world champion matches. Their perception was this sport would not be any fun unless you shoot lightning stages. We inform them there is more to SASS then being a world champion.

 

Also is there a perception that people have to spend 6K + to purchase firearms to have fun shooting SASS?

 

We talk about maybe attracting families. How about filming (with permission) a family that is shooting together at a major match or a picture in a major magazine?  

 

I have read a lot of ideas in this thread and they are good. As always the rules subject comes up. Yes there may be a better way to deal with rule changes, clarifications and updates for the HB.

 

 The bottom line is SASS needs to increase the membership with a major push for trying to bring back old members and to get new members. This should be a top priority!!!!  

 

Nawlins

 

During one episode of ShootingUSA on cable Chicken George's family was shown at Winter Range.  The boys were incredibly fast with the '97s given their age and the girls were very cute in their bonnets and pinafores.  (As I remember Turquoise Bill noted his arm made a brief appearance holding a timer.)

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TW that's a great nanner split do you mind if I try that or is it patent pending?  Do I just order the TW nanner split or do I have to explain to them how to make it?  You let me know when you come to Phoenix and we'll go to DQ and order a pair of them.   I used to live in Carthage Tn when I as in grade school. 

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

No problem Buck! You don't owe me a nanner split, but if I were to get one it'd be caramel on both ends with pineapple in the middle. Don't let them mess it up by puttin the pineapple on the end. Messes up the flavor!

 

I had a feeling you were high maintenance. :lol: :FlagAm:

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21 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Yadda yadda some other stuff.....

 

Besides, folks like TW probably has a sponsor (rich friend, country music star) in Nashville that pays for his guns and ammo.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, I heard that ole TW and Little Jimmy Dickens were tight!

 

Kajun

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5 hours ago, Mister Badly said:

My favorite promo video. 

 

No black powder?  Now that's just not right.  :ph34r: :P

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Just below that video is a link to her YouTube channel. I am sure there are videos from dark days there. Or Google Hawkeye Gin 13

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These videos are among some of the ideas I would encourage SASS to look into.

 

Videos, pamphlets, etc.  Sanctioned by SASS and consistent from promotion to promotion.

 

Promotional materials to provide to local media outlets for their consumption. 

I have had the opportunity to speak with a few local media outlets, "Good Morning, Las Vegas" type shows - most want studio guests to avoid the time, editing and expense of sending crews to a range.

Professional SASS videos would assist in the distribution of our message - without range time or videos - I'm just a fat guy in stupid clothes talking.

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The major issues facing the sport are high cost and demographics.  
 

The gear for this sport has never been cheap, especially if you want guns that are competitive.  Some have suggested that we have a one handgun class, which could help some but does not do that much to lower costs.  

 

The demographics are just as daunting.  Most younger folks today did not grow up on westerns.  Fewer of them are shooters and when they are most are interested in modern guns.  So if they shoot competitively they are more interested in sports like IDPA or three gun shooting.  
 

I some ways we are swimming against the tide.  In my opinion, increasing membership is done at the personal level by building relationships and bringing people into the fold.  Good public relations and increasing visibility is the place to start, but where the rubber meets the road is personal contact with perspective shooters and support to get them involved while they get their gear together.  Personal relationships are what makes SASS strong.

 

just my thoughts.  

 

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On 7/4/2020 at 11:12 AM, Mister Badly said:

My favorite promo video. 

 

While that is a very well produced video and some truly great shooting. I wonder if  a prospective shooter might find it a little intimidating. "Looks like fun, but I would be so slow that I'd be embarrassed." 

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49 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

 

While that is a very well produced video and some truly great shooting. I wonder if  a prospective shooter might find it a little intimidating. "Looks like fun, but I would be so slow that I'd be embarrassed." 

Never stopped me from trying. I take the attitude of "laugh with me, not at me."

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2 hours ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

 

While that is a very well produced video and some truly great shooting. I wonder if  a prospective shooter might find it a little intimidating. "Looks like fun, but I would be so slow that I'd be embarrassed." 

 

Marshal, 

That is exactly the feedback I get when I post videos of our fastest shooters on my sites.  New shooters say, "I can never compete like that", and are plainly discouraged.  Yet these same folks will watch The Masters Tournament and say, "I'd like to try that!"

 

Anyway, I found the solution.

 

Instead of "Cowboy Action Shooting", (CAS)... we'll call in Cowboys and Zombies, (CAZ).   It's what are target demographic seems to be watching now:  

 

 

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I like CAS just the way it is, there probably needs some rule tweaking ala Wild Bunch, get rid of some rules, but on the whole it's great and the WB and Misty's crew have done a magnificient job., over the 23 years I've been involved.

The only thing that surprised me was why the WB resigned or retired en masse?? I would have thought there would have been at least some that would stay. Just a thought! 

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4 hours ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

 

While that is a very well produced video and some truly great shooting. I wonder if  a prospective shooter might find it a little intimidating. "Looks like fun, but I would be so slow that I'd be embarrassed." 

I agree with you. IMO attracting people with videos would be more successful if they emphasized the fact that THEY could play the game without being an accomplished speed shooter. one of the reasons the game was originally started was to get away from the fierce competition that existed in other gun games. I realize that has changed, but I think that just seeing other "Regular" people playing the game provides more encouragement than watching someone that is doing something that they most likely will never be able to do. Once they get involved, then I think that they would be more interested in watching the speedsters. Also, it depends upon what direction that you want to take the game.

 

Snakebite  

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On 7/3/2020 at 7:44 PM, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

Persons of color are not especially common in any shooting sport - but even less so within our own.

 

 

Years back I was doing USPSA for a spell, what I found interesting that Filipino's consisted of about 1/3 of the shooters at the matches.Their age group was late 20s to late 50s.  

 

 

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One of the most common criticisms I hear when trying to recruit new shooters into CAS/SASS. Has to do with how close the targets are placed to the shooter, when compared to other disciplines. 

Some feel our game has become more of a "spray-n-pray" deal, with very little accuracy needed.

Respectfully, 

OLG 

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47 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

One of the most common criticisms I hear when trying to recruit new shooters into CAS/SASS. Has to do with how close the targets are placed to the shooter, when compared to other disciplines. 

Some feel our game has become more of a "spray-n-pray" deal, with very little accuracy needed.

Respectfully, 

OLG 

I have thought that for a long time..... HOWEVER.. I recently attended a large national IPSC match. The vast majority of the targets were as close or closer than what I see at most Cowboy ranges now days. The difference being that the paper Bullseye targets that they use are scored by accuracy...i.e. a center shot counts more than something on the edge. Of course a hit anywhere on our steel targets usually counts the same. Yes, I was surprised at how close the targets at this large match were placed.

 

Snakebite

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17 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

I have thought that for a long time..... HOWEVER.. I recently attended a large national IPSC match. The vast majority of the targets were as close or closer than what I see at most Cowboy ranges now days. The difference being that the paper Bullseye targets that they use are scored by accuracy...i.e. a center shot counts more than something on the edge. Of course a hit anywhere on our steel targets usually counts the same. Yes, I was surprised at how close the targets at this large match were placed.

 

Snakebite

 

How close were those IPSC targets? :huh:

What I posted, was actual feedback I received from folks. Not second hand.

OLG 

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