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Wyoma

Cimmarron/Uberti

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The way I understand it Uberti makes the Cimmarron brand.  If this is true then what are  the differences say in a 357/38sp rifle?  And why two different products?

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Uberti makes some of the products that Cimarron markets. As for the rest of your inquiry I really don't understand what you are asking.

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:FlagAm: Uberti is a manuafacturer.  Cimarron as well as Taylors, Stoeger and Navy Arms are importers.  All sell product made by Uberti.  There can be differences regarding level of finish and aesthetics, but all basically the same.  Some importers carry a specific model to them only.

Chas B;)

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My only question is why buy one over the other.  Is a rifle in 357/38 with Cimmarron stamped on it the same as one with Uberti stamped on  it.  Does one have better handling qualities, fit, finish, etc.  Who likes what and why?

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Would basically be the same product.  Some of the importers add or subtract certain features/services to hit different price points.

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Thanks Sarge.  I have several lever guns but none from this manufacturer.  I am contemplating another purchase and thought I'd ask some experts.

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My Cimarron Cattlemen Have Smaller non period markings in places that are less noticeable than the normal Uberti SAA 's...

And some are given a little more care in assembly .... Plus you can get them to smooth things up a bit and change Springs ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

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Once you find the lever gun variant (barrel, stock, grip, metal finish, etc.) that you like, get it from the importer that is best on price.  

 

If you are serious about competing, take the middleman out and buy the lever gun directly through the gunsmith that you really like, and have him tune it up and put in any speed parts you want.  This requires either knowing what you need up front, or knowing a Cowboy shooter you trust to tell you what you need.  I'd be pretty sure that it's easier and quicker to get top quality gunsmithing done today than it has been in the last 15 years!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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As far as rifles made by Uberti goes, I have Uberti, Cimarron, EMF in 1873 and 1866.  I also have Uberti and Cimarron 1885s.  Other than the name stamped on the barrel, they all function the same for me.

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Has anybody ever seen this name stamped on an Uberti?  The person I bought this 1866 from didn't know anything about it.  All I can find out from an internet search is its a German firearms importer.  How this rifle got here is a mystery to me.  Anybody know anything about that company and how/why the rifle might have made its way to the USA?  Based on the date stamp, it was manufactured in 2001.

 

thanks,

Hellbender

IMG_5468.jpg

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GM makes GMC, Chevy and Pontiac (among others)... think of it that way.

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According to various sources, including Cimarron's website, the owner of Cimarron actually went over to Italy, and met with Uberti, and provided some original firearms for them to develop their products.  Cimarron also pushed for various models to be considered for production.  Cimarron also insisted that the markings on the firearms be modified, from their traditional way of doing things, and the copious amounts of Italian proof/inspector marks, be more hidden, than was previously done.  Whether or not any of the other importers went to Italy, and provided their opinions, or not, is something I am not aware of.  Perhaps they did, perhaps they did not...perhaps you know.  Also, specific Uberti' models were designated for Cimarron only, and not available to the other importers, and some were designated for Taylor's.  Not sure how Stoeger fits into this, perhaps they just get what Uberti sends them.  Cimarron's visit to Uberti was before Uberti was bought out by Beretta, and as it is generally understood, Beretta is less willing to work with the importers, than Uberti was.  But, one can read a lot about it on-line, and at the various importers websites, and you can take what is printed as truth, or half-truth, or malarkey, as you wish. Uberti/Beretta makes the product.  They vary somewhat, between importers.  Which importer you go to, to buy one, depends on your choice of firearm, on your budget, and on the finish of the firearm you want, and which importer has that specific firearm shipped to them exclusively. 

For instance, once-upon-a-time, I wanted an 1860 Henry "civil war model".  The "civil war model" has the sling swivel and the sling attachment, and the "civilian model" does not have these features.  I am not sure if this still holds true, after Beretta's buyout of Uberti, but at the time, the only importer of the "civil war model", of the 1860 Henry, was Cimarron, because of the contract/deal they had with Uberti.

If that still holds true, about certain importers have contracts with Uberti/Beretta, then your decision on what firearm you want, and the features you are looking for, will send you to a specific importer.       

 

My Two Bits.

W.K.

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Posted (edited)

IMHO, that's mostly marketing. I have a Navy Arms of North Kansas City, MO .44-40 '60 Henry, a North American Arms .44-40 '73 carbine and a Taylor's .38/357 deluxe rifle, all made by Uberti. The only difference is the roll stamping on the barrel.

 

Caveat: There is no difference between Uberti manufactured guns from the same period. That is, an Uberti from the mid-90s is different from those of later years. My Henry has the same action as current Ubertis of the same caliber, but manufacturing has changed thru the years so parts aren't necessarily interchangeable.  If you're eventually going to add a short stroke kit to a used rifle, the year of manufacture makes a difference. Just like cars, washers and dryers.

 

 

Edited by Abilene Slim SASS 81783

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Rer HEGE-UBERTI Win 66: HEGE is the main importer of Uberti guns for Germany and a couple of Eastern European countries.

Hence, the majority of the Uberti guns you purchase through a dealer in Germany are marked HEGE-UBERTI.

What happens if the UBERTI importer XYZ of the USA urgently needs a couple of Win 66s  but UBERTI currently only have a surplus inventory of HEGE-UBERTI marked availaby AND the next production of XYZ-UBERTI marked Win 66s is scheduled in a year's time?

UBERTI will check back with XYZ if they would accept the HEGE marked lever guns after they talked to HEGE that that is OK..

If every party agrees that is what XYZ in the USA will receive.

A friend of mine here in Germany urgently needed an UBERTI made Colt 1860 Richards 2 conversion in .44 Colt. cal. for CAS.

None was available at HEGE at the time and would not be for couple of months ... but they had a Cimarron marked one instead .... with a HEGE stamp added for good measure.

I'd call that transatlantic cooperation.

Long Johns Wolf

 

1-P1040423.JPG

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12 hours ago, Wyoma said:

My only question is why buy one over the other.  Is a rifle in 357/38 with Cimmarron stamped on it the same as one with Uberti stamped on  it.  Does one have better handling qualities, fit, finish, etc.  Who likes what and why?


Lets say Taylor’s wants to buy from Uberti, 200 Win1873 rifles and 300 Colt 1873 revolvers.  There are certain features they can specify on the guns, such as the grade of wood used, the grade of finish, the markings, etc., that make the guns they buy somewhat unique.    If an importer becomes known for having certain unique versions of Uberti guns that have become sought after, then that is a reason why a Taylors rifle or revolver may be more popular than another importer’s Uberti guns.

 

Cat Brules

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I have a Uberti USA (stoeger) Cattleman El Patron, short stroke, CMS, 3 1/2" barrel .45 colt  ,  , and a Taylors Uberti Cattle man, 4.75" barrel .44spl.

I noticed the Uberti El Patron CMS and the Taylor Runnin' Iron are kind of the same gun except the Taylors wide / low hammer looks different shape

I was comparing the Cimarron, UbertiUSA, and Taylor guns. They all have different names , still not sure of other differences or if some are exactly the same just named different

 

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Whatever you do don't buy an already slicked up version from any of them! Buy one stock and get a SS kit and install it yourself or better yet have a gunsmith do it. Trust me, I've had a very bad experience with Taylor's Commanchero that was "slicked up". 

 

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7 hours ago, Long Johns Wolf said:

Rer HEGE-UBERTI Win 66: HEGE is the main importer of Uberti guns for Germany and a couple of Eastern European countries.

Hence, the majority of the Uberti guns you purchase through a dealer in Germany are marked HEGE-UBERTI.

What happens if the UBERTI importer XYZ of the USA urgently needs a couple of Win 66s  but UBERTI currently only have a surplus inventory of HEGE-UBERTI marked availaby AND the next production of XYZ-UBERTI marked Win 66s is scheduled in a year's time?

UBERTI will check back with XYZ if they would accept the HEGE marked lever guns after they talked to HEGE that that is OK..

If every party agrees that is what XYZ in the USA will receive.

A friend of mine here in Germany urgently needed an UBERTI made Colt 1860 Richards 2 conversion in .44 Colt. cal. for CAS.

None was available at HEGE at the time and would not be for couple of months ... but they had a Cimarron marked one instead .... with a HEGE stamp added for good measure.

I'd call that transatlantic cooperation.

Long Johns Wolf

 

1-P1040423.JPG

Thank you for answering my question, Long Johns.  I've been wondering what my rifle was doing in the USA and you've given me a very plausible and most likely explanation.

 

Hellbender

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5 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Whatever you do don't buy an already slicked up version from any of them! Buy one stock and get a SS kit and install it yourself or better yet have a gunsmith do it. Trust me, I've had a very bad experience with Taylor's Commanchero that was "slicked up". 

 

I've heard that before about Taylors "taylortuned" ... Maybe it was just you before. 

 

What is a SS kit? 

 

The Wolff spring kit was just as stiff as the stock spring . Dont get the wolff kit

 

I have the Lee's Gunslinger  spring kit , also the one from VPI light main sprg .

 

B)

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42 minutes ago, gsp7 said:

I've heard that before about Taylors "taylortuned" ... Maybe it was just you before. 

 

What is a SS kit? 

 

The Wolff spring kit was just as stiff as the stock spring . Dont get the wolff kit

 

I have the Lee's Gunslinger  spring kit , also the one from VPI light main sprg .

 

B)

Assuming you mean VTI, those springs are made by smith industries out of Southern California. Jim Martin, the single greatest living Colt gunsmith sweats by them. I’ve been using them for years and have never had a primer not go bang despite how light they feel. I know of at least 4 incidents of the Wolff spring snapping one of the sides (split in the middle type). One of them sliced a guys hand open when it snapped. I won’t use those. 

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15 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Assuming you mean VTI, those springs are made by smith industries out of Southern California. Jim Martin, the single greatest living Colt gunsmith sweats by them. I’ve been using them for years and have never had a primer not go bang despite how light they feel. I know of at least 4 incidents of the Wolff spring snapping one of the sides (split in the middle type). One of them sliced a guys hand open when it snapped. I won’t use those. 

So he likes them so much that he “sweats by them”?:D

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6 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

So he likes them so much that he “sweats by them”?:D

Probably does. I assume gunsmithing is hot and sweaty work. Especially in Arizona 

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51 minutes ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Assuming you mean VTI, those springs are made by smith industries out of Southern California. Jim Martin, the single greatest living Colt gunsmith sweats by them. I’ve been using them for years and have never had a primer not go bang despite how light they feel. I know of at least 4 incidents of the Wolff spring snapping one of the sides (split in the middle type). One of them sliced a guys hand open when it snapped. I won’t use those. 

 

 I was told by VTI those are Superior Industries springs . Not "Smith Industries"

Ken Baumgartner - Superior Industries

I called him and his Daughter said He had just Died

 

 

.

 

.

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8 minutes ago, gsp7 said:

 

 I was told by VTI those are Superior Industries springs . Not "Smith Industries"

Ken Baumgartner - Superior Industries

I called him and his Daughter said He had just Died

 

 

.

 

.

You are absolutely correct. Momentary brain fart. That's terrible news of Ken. I am very saddened to hear that.

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On 4/28/2020 at 4:58 PM, Wyoma said:

Thanks Sarge.  I have several lever guns but none from this manufacturer.  I am contemplating another purchase and thought I'd ask some experts.

Hi Wyoma,


Since you're from south of Atlanta perhaps you would be interested in shooting at either Doc Hollidays (Griffin, 2nd Saturday) or South River Shootists (Covington, 3rd Saturday). We don't know yet if there will be May matches, but perhaps. 

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I think that would be a great idea.  I only recently got interested in SASS but I like the site and what everyone is talking about.  I don't have all the fire power, hardware  or the proper clothing.  Hence my original question about rifles.  I'm a little bit afraid that if I show up in the kitchen in a cowboy outfit with two six guns, a shotgun and a rifle that may be the last I see of my wife.  I know that in some cases some guys might think that a good thing but in my case she's a pretty nice lady.  I think Griffin would be the closest.

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When I bought my 1866 and 1873 rifles both times they were Taylors. Why? Because that way both would say WINCHESTER on them.

 

Taylors is in Winchester, VA. :D

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5 hours ago, gsp7 said:

I've heard that before about Taylors "taylortuned" ... Maybe it was just you before. 

 

What is a SS kit? 

 

The Wolff spring kit was just as stiff as the stock spring . Dont get the wolff kit

 

I have the Lee's Gunslinger  spring kit , also the one from VPI light main sprg .

 

B)

SS kit is a short stroke kit for your rifle. There's like 5 generations of them. I got the 3rd gen from Cowboys and Indians store. I have a second gen in a Uberti 66 that I bought used from a pard.

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2 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

When I bought my 1866 and 1873 rifles both times they were Taylors. Why? Because that way both would say WINCHESTER on them.

 

Taylors is in Winchester, VA. :D

Mine says Winchester too. But it’s not an uberti 

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4 hours ago, Wyoma said:

I think that would be a great idea.  I only recently got interested in SASS but I like the site and what everyone is talking about.  I don't have all the fire power, hardware  or the proper clothing.  Hence my original question about rifles.  I'm a little bit afraid that if I show up in the kitchen in a cowboy outfit with two six guns, a shotgun and a rifle that may be the last I see of my wife.  I know that in some cases some guys might think that a good thing but in my case she's a pretty nice lady.  I think Griffin would be the closest.

You can come to the next Griffin match, dress as cowboy as you can and wear a sturdy belt, and I’ll spot you any equipment or ammo you’re missing to shoot the match. Just let me know you’re coming so I can bring extra stuff. It’s a friendly match, you’ll love the people.

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3 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

When I bought my 1866 and 1873 rifles both times they were Taylors. Why? Because that way both would say WINCHESTER on them.

 

Taylors is in Winchester, VA. :D

 

But if you'd bought a Cimarron it would have TEXAS on the barrel .... Much Better :D

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1 hour ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

Mine says Winchester too. But it’s not an uberti 

 

The Miroku Winchesters are gorgeous guns, that is true. Unfortunately I was turned off by the huge Ruger-esque billboard rollmarks on the barrels, so I went with Uberti/Taylors instead. Having said that, getting a Miroku 1873 is definitely still on my bucket list. I actually considered getting one with my stimulus money, but that ended up going towards something else so the Miroku is going to have to wait.

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I added a Miroku/Winchester '66 a while back and it's become my Favorite ....

They are Really Well Made Guns!!!   Mine is slicked up & short stroked. 

 

One surprising thing I've discovered is the Winchester tolerates shooting Black Powder better than any of my Uberti's

 That, I wasn't expecting !!

 

 

 

 

It didn't have TEXAS stamped on it anywhere though, but I had Aspen Filly remedy that !

 

1186202738_IMG_1086copy.jpg.90e8860d5c1e09b4097a6bdb07a2573d.jpg

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1 hour ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

 

The Miroku Winchesters are gorgeous guns, that is true. Unfortunately I was turned off by the huge Ruger-esque billboard rollmarks on the barrels, so I went with Uberti/Taylors instead. Having said that, getting a Miroku 1873 is definitely still on my bucket list. I actually considered getting one with my stimulus money, but that ended up going towards something else so the Miroku is going to have to wait.

That’s a sticker. It comes off

33 minutes ago, Silver Sam, SASS #34718L said:

I added a Miroku/Winchester '66 a while back and it's become my Favorite ....

They are Really Well Made Guns!!!   Mine is slicked up & short stroked. 

 

One surprising thing I've discovered is the Winchester tolerates shooting Black Powder better than any of my Uberti's

 That, I wasn't expecting !!

 

 

 

 

It didn't have TEXAS stamped on it anywhere though, but I had Aspen Filly remedy that !

 

1186202738_IMG_1086copy.jpg.90e8860d5c1e09b4097a6bdb07a2573d.jpg

Very nice. Mine is the same way when it comes to BP. 

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10 hours ago, El Hombre Sin Nombre said:

That’s a sticker. It comes off

 

I'm not talking about the blaze-orange sticker. I'm talking about the rollmark on the barrel that says "Made in Japan by Miroku, blah blah blah" that is conspicuously located and pressed so hard into the metal that the letters are all raised up. I really wish they'd tone it down a little and make the markings look more period-correct like Uberti, Taylor and Cimarron does.

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