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Blackjack Zak

THANK YOU....from Winter Range!

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1 hour ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

As a FYI - I do forward stats for misses, p's , etc to the ranger masters.  Also want to mention that - as the competitors age more misses and p's are to be expected even if the difficulty remains the same - that said we will definitely be reviewing the surveys carefully.

Joe, my friend, can we have an answer as to why the stats for "misses, p's, etc" are not published for the general SASS membership? Just a question.

DC

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WR Board and Crew!!

 

Thanks for what to me was one of, or really, the best Winter Range match I have attended .

A challenge at hittable targets, action that us kept moving, props as seen nowhere else in the kingdom, target arrays that required aiming and concentration,  and instructions that left the shooter responsible for the outcomes. 

 

What else would you hope to expect at a "National Championship????

 

I concur with the exact comments that Beartrap made earlier. 

 

Thanks,  Ol'  #4 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

As a FYI - I do forward stats for misses, p's , etc to the ranger masters.  Also want to mention that - as the competitors age more misses and p's are to be expected even if the difficulty remains the same - that said we will definitely be reviewing the surveys carefully.


So, Joe, you did forward the data being requested to “the range masters”.


Apparently, they’ve decided not to post that information in a Topic here on the Wire.
Maybe the did, but I didn’t see it.  

 

I didn’t go looking for it on the SASS Website, but then, I shouldn’t have to go looking for it in an area of the Website I’m unfamiliar with, especially if It being there at all is an unknown factor .  I think the stats should be posted in two or three different places on the Website to make it readily viewable by the membership.  And, it’s not anyone’s right to withhold the data.  The data belongs to the membership.

 

Any idea why the stats might be considered something confidential?  I would like to see the stats posted under a separate Topic heading here in the SASS Wire.

 

Since they haven’t been posted yet and you have access to the stats, how about posting the information here?  I’m sure a great many of us would like to see them.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Cat Brules

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My First trip to Winter Range.  What a great Match.  Clearly the result of many many hours/days/weeks of planing and preparation.  Rolling from Oregon to with Old friends to make new friends and take part in a great match, well worth the time, miles and all it took.  THANKS!

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Dear Blackjack Zak:

You and all your crew from top to bottom ( I'm not really sure what that means) put on a Magnificent  match.  Thanks for the great weather as well.  Please put in the same order for 2021.

Where else can you go to a major tournament  like WR and on many of the stages the shooter decides how they wanna shoot it; left to right, top to bottom, or which firearm and in what order. Damn that was great.

To them that complain, vote with your feet n stay home.  More ice cream for me.

I do have a serious suggestion to make the match better-put a port-a-potty by stages 1-4.  That would make it a perfect match  LOL.

My sincerest wishes to you n all involved.

 

Windy

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26 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:


So, Joe, you did forward the data being requested to “the range masters”.


Apparently, they’ve decided not to post that information in a Topic here on the Wire.
Maybe the did, but I didn’t see it.  

 

I didn’t go looking for it on the SASS Website, but then, I shouldn’t have to go looking for it in an area of the Website I’m unfamiliar with, especially if It being there at all is an unknown factor .  I think the stats should be posted in two or three different places on the Website to make it readily viewable by the membership.  And, it’s not anyone’s right to withhold the data.  The data belongs to the membership.

 

Any idea why the stats might be considered something confidential?  I would like to see the stats posted under a separate Topic heading here in the SASS Wire.

 

Since they haven’t been posted yet and you have access to the stats, how about posting the information here?  I’m sure a great many of us would like to see them.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Cat Brules

With all due respect I don't believe anyone except those who put on the match have any "right" to any stats.

If you didn't shoot or write the match to know exactly where any pitfalls might be any "stat" is just a meaningless number.

Was the miss caused by distance or excess smoke due to a nonexistent breeze? Was the procedural caused by an overly complex scenario or poor description of stage instructions?

In my humble opinion only a participant will ever truly know the cause of their trouble and any "stats" published will explain nothing.

As has been stated by the match officials the only thing that will help them is explicit suggestions in the survey by those who SHOT THE MATCH.

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1 hour ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

Joe, my friend, can we have an answer as to why the stats for "misses, p's, etc" are not published for the general SASS membership? Just a question.

DC

Yep - I don't do that - never have never will.  Our data - thanks for asking

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42 minutes ago, Cat Brules said:


So, Joe, you did forward the data being requested to “the range masters”.


Apparently, they’ve decided not to post that information in a Topic here on the Wire.
Maybe the did, but I didn’t see it.  

 

I didn’t go looking for it on the SASS Website, but then, I shouldn’t have to go looking for it in an area of the Website I’m unfamiliar with, especially if It being there at all is an unknown factor .  I think the stats should be posted in two or three different places on the Website to make it readily viewable by the membership.  And, it’s not anyone’s right to withhold the data.  The data belongs to the membership.

 

Any idea why the stats might be considered something confidential?  I would like to see the stats posted under a separate Topic heading here in the SASS Wire.

 

Since they haven’t been posted yet and you have access to the stats, how about posting the information here?  I’m sure a great many of us would like to see them.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Cat Brules

Cat:

I didn't send it to them to post , If it needed posting.  I would have.  Its our data to tune WR.  I don't ask other matches for their data , never will.

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2 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

With all due respect I don't believe anyone except those who put on the match have any "right" to any stats.

If you didn't shoot or write the match to know exactly where any pitfalls might be any "stat" is just a meaningless number.

Was the miss caused by distance or excess smoke due to a nonexistent breeze? Was the procedural caused by an overly complex scenario or poor description of stage instructions?

In my humble opinion only a participant will ever truly know the cause of their trouble and any "stats" published will explain nothing.

As has been stated by the match officials the only thing that will help them is explicit suggestions in the survey by those who SHOT THE MATCH.

I agree with what you are saying... except in this case the big over-riding issue seems to be the very low clean match ratio, which in my opinion is BS. Out of 640 + or - shooters only 37 shot clean. But the question is, how many of the 600 may have had just 1 , maybe 2, misses, or no misses & a P. With more than 290 shots down range in a challenging match, why is that alarming. BT always posts a full accounting of scores & penalties. FYI, Squeaky & I shot EOT in '18 & I had 1 miss but I know why. Won't describe it but it was a brain fade because of what happened to the shooter ahead of me. Why not bebunk the BS that the WR match was too difficult based on the # of clean matches? Again, how many "almost clean" shooters were there? That's all I'm saying. Wish we could have been there. 

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26 minutes ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

I agree with what you are saying... except in this case the big over-riding issue seems to be the very low clean match ratio, which in my opinion is BS. Out of 640 + or - shooters only 37 shot clean. But the question is, how many of the 600 may have had just 1 , maybe 2, misses, or no misses & a P. With more than 290 shots down range in a challenging match, why is that alarming. BT always posts a full accounting of scores & penalties. FYI, Squeaky & I shot EOT in '18 & I had 1 miss but I know why. Won't describe it but it was a brain fade because of what happened to the shooter ahead of me. Why not bebunk the BS that the WR match was too difficult based on the # of clean matches? Again, how many "almost clean" shooters were there? That's all I'm saying. Wish we could have been there. 

 Don: I understand what you are saying.  Certainly that could be the case but I don't capture that specific data. 

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7 hours ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

I agree with what you are saying... except in this case the big over-riding issue seems to be the very low clean match ratio, which in my opinion is BS. Out of 640 + or - shooters only 37 shot clean. But the question is, how many of the 600 may have had just 1 , maybe 2, misses, or no misses & a P. With more than 290 shots down range in a challenging match, why is that alarming. BT always posts a full accounting of scores & penalties. FYI, Squeaky & I shot EOT in '18 & I had 1 miss but I know why. Won't describe it but it was a brain fade because of what happened to the shooter ahead of me. Why not bebunk the BS that the WR match was too difficult based on the # of clean matches? Again, how many "almost clean" shooters were there? That's all I'm saying. Wish we could have been there. 

The logic you're using could also be applied to BT. With targets so close you can touch them and as big as a cow why isn't EVERY shooter clean? Is it to tough a match?:D

There are plenty of posts ( including mine) by shooters who weren't clean and have no complaints and thought it was a great match.

Just because BT does (or doesn't) do something doesn't mean every match has to.

Let's just let the WR team do what they they think appropriate AFTER they get all the surveys in FROM PEOPLE THAT SHOT THE MATCH AND KNOW FIRST HAND WHAT IT WAS LIKE.

p.s. They DO listen. I (and I'm sure others also) had 2 suggestions on my survey last year and both were implemented this year.:D

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Where is the "shooter survey" located ???

 

I shot both the Wild Bunch match and the Cowboy match.

I thoroughly enjoyed both matches and really felt that I "got my moneys worth".

I would like to fill out the survey to let the Winter Range staff know how much I enjoyed shooting it.

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King snake, they will email you a link fairly soon. They usually announce it on the wire and Facebook. Some years I had to check my junk mail file.

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21 hours ago, SouthwestShooter said:

 

I do have a serious suggestion to make the match better-put a port-a-potty by stages 1-4.  That would make it a perfect match  LOL.

 

 

Hey Windy, we have tried to find a way to do just that. However, there just isn't a way to get the service truck in there to pump it out. At WR we have all the toilets serviced twice a day; that one on 1-4 would be pretty UGLY by the end of the match!

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7 hours ago, two dot said:

King snake, they will email you a link fairly soon. They usually announce it on the wire and Facebook. Some years I had to check my junk mail file.

 

The survey is sent out by Survey Monkey. If you have ever asked to be removed from their survey list you will not get it. You can go to their website and opt back in at https://www.surveymonkey.com/user/email-opt-in/?ut_source=sem_lp&ut_source2=sem&ut_source3=footer&ut_ctatext=Email Opt-In . Also, yes, check your spam files. Many have reported finding it there.

 

The survey is not out yet, we try to give travellers a chance to get home and rested up first. We will announce it here, I have no idea what goes on at Facebook.

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8 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:

 

The survey is sent out by Survey Monkey. If you have ever asked to be removed from their survey list you will not get it. You can go to their website and opt back in at https://www.surveymonkey.com/user/email-opt-in/?ut_source=sem_lp&ut_source2=sem&ut_source3=footer&ut_ctatext=Email Opt-In . Also, yes, check your spam files. Many have reported finding it there.

 

The survey is not out yet, we try to give travellers a chance to get home and rested up first. We will announce it here, I have no idea what goes on at Facebook.

The quicker the better...thoughts are fresh in their minds...but...what do I know:lol:

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First off, I would like to thank BJZ, the BOD and all of the Great Volunteers that were responsible for the 2020 version of WR. 

 

This was my 15th WR and one of, if not the best one yet. In all of these, the targets were mixed distances, heights and sizes so I didn't see anything I didn't expect. I have seen the target sizes actually increase in the last few years ( a few inches) and the SG Targets actually in closer than they were years ago (but you still gotta hit um). The circles and squares are great shapes to shoot at. (better than cowboys, snakes, indians, etc) Plus the different colors are there to help. Plus the best Fronts and Props, bar none.

So, why the gripes, I think that most local Match Directors don't mix up the targets and still put them in a straight line and are content to shoot the same sweeps, multiple taps, etc all the time. This handicaps the shooter when he/she decides to attend a match like WR, EOT and others that mix it up.

I remember the first year EOT used the moving ore cart on a stage. The problem on the stage for misses wasn't the cart but the Pistol Targets were in a W arrangement. In watching videos of the stage, the majority of the misses were on the Pistol Targets. (were not in a straight line). That's when I started mixing them up at my local match. 

Maybe those that had problems with the match this year need to think of what caused most of their problems. Once determined, approach your local MD and see if they will help by changing things around to help them "be ready" the next time. 

 

JM

 

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On 3/7/2020 at 7:14 PM, SouthwestShooter said:

Dear Blackjack Zak:

You and all your crew from top to bottom ( I'm not really sure what that means) put on a Magnificent  match.  Thanks for the great weather as well.  Please put in the same order for 2021.

Where else can you go to a major tournament  like WR and on many of the stages the shooter decides how they wanna shoot it; left to right, top to bottom, or which firearm and in what order. Damn that was great.

To them that complain, vote with your feet n stay home.  More ice cream for me.

I do have a serious suggestion to make the match better-put a port-a-potty by stages 1-4.  That would make it a perfect match  LOL.

My sincerest wishes to you n all involved.

 

Windy

Well said!  Fantastic match, challenging, fun, best props in the business.  Totally agree about port-a-potty at Bay 1.  Too many of us spend too much time walking back and forth to the set-up opposite Bay 5.  Can't wait to see what you all come up with for next year!!!

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22 hours ago, Beartrap SASS#57175 said:

The logic you're using could also be applied to BT. With targets so close you can touch them and as big as a cow why isn't EVERY shooter clean? Is it to tough a match?:D

There are plenty of posts ( including mine) by shooters who weren't clean and have no complaints and thought it was a great match.

Just because BT does (or doesn't) do something doesn't mean every match has to.

Let's just let the WR team do what they they think appropriate AFTER they get all the surveys in FROM PEOPLE THAT SHOT THE MATCH AND KNOW FIRST HAND WHAT IT WAS LIKE.

p.s. They DO listen. I (and I'm sure others also) had 2 suggestions on my survey last year and both were implemented this year.:D

Just so ya know, brother smoke shooter, I sure don't have a dog in this fight! I was on Jury Duty during the match. My suggestion as to posting detail re: misses & ps was just that. Seemed to be a way to alleviate the innuendo that WR has been too complicated for "average" , or "older" shooters, the "older" description actually commented on by a WR BD member. It's the WR's board choice to set up the match however it wants, and good luck to you all. Hope we can be back next year. No further comment is required.

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16 hours ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:

 

Hey Windy, we have tried to find a way to do just that. However, there just isn't a way to get the service truck in there to pump it out. At WR we have all the toilets serviced twice a day; that one on 1-4 would be pretty UGLY by the end of the match!

Oh, I understand..was actually kidding cause I understood the logistics.  

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I'm not sure if the targets were to far or the stage was to complicated or even to many shot gun targets all I want to know is WHERE DO I SIGN UP FOR NEXT YEARS

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On 3/7/2020 at 2:32 PM, Lou Graham, # 26112 said:

I More than anything else, we have to decide the question: Are we a game or a shooting sport?  It used to be a game - a bad hatchet throw or draw of the wrong card could cost you big time.  Getting it right or a little luck might make you the winner.  Most of our changes have been toward becoming more like a shooting sport. Is that what we want?  If it isn't, then why are we doing that?  We need to make up our mind.  Straddling that fence makes planning a match to cover the various wants from the participants SO much harder, it's really just about impossible.    

 

Like this description, agreed would be more of a shooting sport! Again have to nod in agreement with the planning, that hit target right there!

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Many years ago we did have portajohns on 1 to 4. Getting them serviced once a day caused lots of issues for both the shooters and the service personnel. The current location has been an excellent compromise. And yes I made the hike several times on that day.

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I thought Winter Range was great didn’t shoot clean but the variety of stage was a good mix and challenging what a good competition should be. Loved it every year that I shot there. I think this year was the best. And that goes for EOT last year too.
5

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This year I enjoyed the company, the challenge and the weather.  Certainly an improvement over last year in the weather deparment.  I have no complaints and truly appreciate the thought and physical work that went into arranging the entire week.

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My objective was to shoot clean and I did shoot clean.  No complaints.  Some of the sweeps made me THINK which is a good thing for an old fart.

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Thanks for not having WR this week!! Received a notice today that Ben Avery is Closed due to all the RAIN!!!!!

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On 3/8/2020 at 9:36 PM, J. M. BROWN, SASS # 27309 said:

First off, I would like to thank BJZ, the BOD and all of the Great Volunteers that were responsible for the 2020 version of WR. 

 

This was my 15th WR and one of, if not the best one yet. In all of these, the targets were mixed distances, heights and sizes so I didn't see anything I didn't expect. I have seen the target sizes actually increase in the last few years ( a few inches) and the SG Targets actually in closer than they were years ago (but you still gotta hit um). The circles and squares are great shapes to shoot at. (better than cowboys, snakes, indians, etc) Plus the different colors are there to help. Plus the best Fronts and Props, bar none.

So, why the gripes, I think that most local Match Directors don't mix up the targets and still put them in a straight line and are content to shoot the same sweeps, multiple taps, etc all the time. This handicaps the shooter when he/she decides to attend a match like WR, EOT and others that mix it up.

I remember the first year EOT used the moving ore cart on a stage. The problem on the stage for misses wasn't the cart but the Pistol Targets were in a W arrangement. In watching videos of the stage, the majority of the misses were on the Pistol Targets. (were not in a straight line). That's when I started mixing them up at my local match. 

Maybe those that had problems with the match this year need to think of what caused most of their problems. Once determined, approach your local MD and see if they will help by changing things around to help them "be ready" the next time. 

 

JM

 

I agree 100% with JMB!  Maybe it would help (especially new shooters) to post the actual stages AFTER the match.  This way people could see there's generally at least 3 stages with vertical staging,  knockdowns,  progressive platerack, distance between positions (ie no stand and delivers), types of sweeps, etc and they can prepare themselves for it.  Yes you won't have target distances and the booklet doesn't show exactly how the stages are setup but at least it would give those who haven't been there an idea of what to expect.   A new shooter going to such a large shoot as this one can be somewhat intimidated so posting the actual stages from the booklet from previous years would allow them to get a little bit of an idea of what to expect. I am not saying post the actual stages ahead of time but rather post them afterwards.

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The last 10 years of match stages are posted on the WR website.

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A special thanks for all the hard work that goes into every aspect of Winter Range.  The props, atmosphere, vendors, food services, entertainment, swap meet, side matches, mini matches, long range, emergency personnel, parking,  the prizes, sponsorship,  security, set up, registration and on and on.... was remarkable.  Felt like a National Championship, with the rest of the world competing along side of us.  Moving the metal alone on twelve stages with options of going either direction must have been a feat in itself .  Many a person gave up a large part of their personal lives to make this happen.  I appreciate that Winter Range and Blackjack Zak are open to our opinions on how to make the match improve.  Again, thank you for all your hard work and putting on this incredible event!!!

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