Should women be required to register for the draft?

[bgavin]

My eldest is 29 years Navy, went in the old fashioned way:  Dad's foot firmly planted on her butt.
She went in as a deck ape and is a full Commander today.
She has commanded her own ship.
Today, she is a Navy liaison to the FBI for counter-terrorism.

However, she is 5'1" and could not possibly carry a wounded soldier.
As a female, she would be subject to additional/different horrors as a P.O.W.
We have all read what the terrorists do to missionary females.

The Israeli female warriors are fearsome in every aspect.
In the medieval days, the women were more vicious than the men.
I pay no attention to miserably unhappy feminists and lesbians, nor do I care at all about their opinions.

[DocWard]

3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Woman's right or not, if I'm injured (more likely a child or grandchild of mine is injured) in combat I want someone next to me who can carry me out and damn few women can sling me over their shoulder and walk off, probably none if I were carrying a combat load out.

 

Do we want to insist on feminists carrying their 'share' of responsibility if it means a less effective force?

 

3 hours ago, bgavin said:

My eldest is 29 years Navy, went in the old fashioned way:  Dad's foot firmly planted on her butt.
She went in as a deck ape and is a full Commander today.
She has commanded her own ship.
Today, she is a Navy liaison to the FBI for counter-terrorism.

However, she is 5'1" and could not possibly carry a wounded soldier.
As a female, she would be subject to additional/different horrors as a P.O.W.
We have all read what the terrorists do to missionary females.

The Israeli female warriors are fearsome in every aspect.
In the medieval days, the women were more vicious than the men.
I pay no attention to miserably unhappy feminists and lesbians, nor do I care at all about their opinions.

 

I believe that I can speak, if not with authority, then at least with some insight. For the vast majority of my career, I served as a combat medic. First in a medical company, then in the field artillery. Once medics shifted from 91Bs to 91Ws, and later 68Ws, we were required to obtain and maintain our National Registry EMT-B. This meant that, in addition to our normal training within our unit, we were constantly going to other trainings to maintain certification. Prior to deployment, there was CMAST (Combat Medic Advanced Skills Training), in addition to the training the brigade as a whole went through prior to deployment. The sum of all of that is I served with and trained with a good number of female medics. I would say the percentage of female medics I would have trusted my life to was pretty much the same as that of males. They did the job, and well, and without hesitation.

 

Now, as for being carried over one's shoulder and all that. Let's take a look at current doctrine. Our current doctrine requires achieving fire superiority first. The days of a medic carrying an M9/M17 and an aid bag are mostly gone. Medics now carry their aid bag and an M4, just like everyone else. A medic in a combat zone is a rifleman first. Sure, medics will still disregard doctrine and begin rendering aid at the first opportunity, and run into harm's way to do so. But if that medic is going to move an injured soldier, he or she is much more likely to grab that soldier by the IOTV and drag that soldier to cover, for both speed and to maintain a lower profile. Interestingly, the strengths tested on the new Army Combat Fitness Test reflect this to a certain extent. Removal from the battle field is likely going to be accomplished via litter, or some other method once control of the situation has been established. Yes, during our deployment it was SOP to have a foldable litter in every vehicle.

 

Put another way, if you have two soldiers with modern combat loads, only the strongest of men are going to hoist another soldier for a Fireman's Carry. When I tested for the Expert Field Medical Badge, we trained in basic web gear, not with full body armor. I was a fairly strong guy, and I could carry a 250lb. soldier the necessary distance, plus a bit. Now, in a combat zone, with IOTV, Helmet, water supply and combat load, on each soldier, that 250 lb. soldier is pushing the 300 mark, and that doesn't include the medic lifting his own equipment. Lifts and carries in combat and emergencies simply aren't practical from multiple standpoints.

Another doctrinal consideration is that soldiers are coming out of training as Combat Lifesavers. Meaning, they are capable of working under the direction of the medic, and getting casualties taken care of, as the situation allows.

Simply put, as a medic who has seen female medics at work, in my opinion if your sole objections are their inability to carry you, then I will say you don't have much to worry about.

 

As an aside, we've had at least one female medic earn the Silver Star for her performance in Afghanistan.

[Captain Bill Burt]

That's an example of why I don't think women are physically up to being combat soldiers.  If everyone on the field is a woman, sure OK, but they're not. Can your average woman carry all the stuff you described and move as well as the average man?  I think not. Can the average woman carry all that crap and still put rounds on target as well as the average guy.  Again, I don't think so.  Are there some exceptions, sure, but they're exceptions.  

We see the differences in ability in our own sport, and there's not much about our sport that requires a lot of physicality.  

 

Women are just as smart if not smarter than men.  They can be just as brave, just as valiant, they deserve the opportunity to serve in our military, just not in combat. 

 

If a woman can meet the same physical standards as a man, without lowering the standard, sure let her serve in combat.  There won't be many. 

 

[DocWard]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:05 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

That's an example of why I don't think women are physically up to being combat soldiers.  If everyone on the field is a woman, sure OK, but they're not. Can your average woman carry all the stuff you described and move as well as the average man?  I think not. Can the average woman carry all that crap and still put rounds on target as well as the average guy.  Again, I don't think so.  Are there some exceptions, sure, but they're exceptions.  

We see the differences in ability in our own sport, and there's not much about our sport that requires a lot of physicality.  

 

Women are just as smart if not smarter than men.  They can be just as brave, just as valiant, they deserve the opportunity to serve in our military, just not in combat. 

 

If a woman can meet the same physical standards as a man, without lowering the standard, sure let her serve in combat.  There won't be many. 

 

 

My point is women have been doing it, and will continue to do so.  A draft won’t change that. Those who have the desire and ability will continue to be medics, and many will be top tier. Those incapable will wash out. Are those who succeed above average, or even exceptional? I would say so, but then, I’m biased.

[Chili Ron]

Howdy, 

If women were drafted and pollyticians kids were drafted in a fair and 

square method I bet the draft would be used much much more carefully.

With a true random draft it would be up to the service involved to test

and accept or reject candidates.

Easy to send a greasy factory workers son, not so easy to send your own little girl.

Best

CR

 

[J-BAR #18287]

Link to an interesting article about why America is polarized today.  It makes the points that unequal draft results during Viet Nam plus the political correctness and “diversity” resulting from civil rights laws in the 1960s are main causes.  Makes  sense to me.

 

https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/roots-partisan-divide/

 

So the question, yes, draft ‘em all, sort them out later.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

On 3/3/2020 at 5:26 PM, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

The OP asked whether women should be required to register for the draft. My answer is yes.

 

Whether someone is required to serve after registration is an entirely different discussion. 

WHY?

[Cyrus Cassidy #45437]

On 3/3/2020 at 2:07 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

If you want gender equality in other areas, you should support gender equality here. Of course, women who are pregnant or the sole support of their family should be exempt as should be men who are the sole support of their family.

 

He's talking about registering for the draft, not being sent off to combat immediately.  Women in the military already have a "non-deployable" status when pregnant and shortly after childbirth.  But once that baby is delivered, get on the plane, soldier, and join your unit.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

I feel that BOTH sexes should be required to register for the draft.  There are plenty of jobs in the military that both sexes are capable of performing. Back when I signed up I was classified 1Y later changed to 2A but was already doing work that supported the mission.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

On 3/3/2020 at 3:01 PM, Trailrider #896 said:

You knew it had to come up in this age of PC.  The 5th US Court of Appeals will render a decision on whether women 18 years old be required to register for the draft, as are young men currently.  In a past decision the SCOTUS said that since women were not eligible to serve in combat, it was unconstitutional to require them to register.  But that is no longer true.  Such women as Senator Martha McSally, a former Air Force fighter pilot, have flown combat missions, and a female warrior is currently about to become a Green Beret!  No telling how either the 5th Court will rule, no whether the SCOTUS will take  up the question and rule, as it is certain there will be an appeal no matter which way the 5th rules.

 

What say you all?  Frankly, I'd rather not see my young granddaughter have to register.  OTOH, there is currently no draft, and not likely to be...unless the women's rights groups insist upon it!  My two grandsons registered on reaching 18. 

Equality means equal.

 

It would be discriminatory if females were excluded based on their gender.

 

Seriously, the Equal Rights Amendment wasn't shut down by men.  WOMEN blocked it when they realized that their special status in things like the draft or Selective Service and other points where being a woman is advantageous would disappear.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

6 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

WHY?

Gotta get drafted first, then pass a physical.

[MAYOBARD SASS #13025L]

Yes.  Equals rights deserve equal lefts too...LMAO.....

[Pat Riot]

The question was:

Should women be required to register for the draft?

Not “Can women perform like men in combat?”.

 

 

 

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 1:07 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

If you want gender equality in other areas, you should support gender equality here. Of course, women who are pregnant or the sole support of their family should be exempt from service as should be men who are the sole support of their family.

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

I got nuthin.

 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

Any discussion about women registering for the draft has to include the consideration of a call-up. Otherwise registering is symbolic, but pointless.

 

By extension, any consideration of a call-up has to deal with the roles women would fill in that call-up. That has to include sorting out women's capacity for combat.

 

Exclude women from combat roles, and relegate them to rear-echelon duties such as logistics, maintenance, admin, etc., and there are outcomes that become apparent:

 

- if the draft is implemented, men who are filling the rear-echelon positions prior to the draft would be displaced by the women draftees, and sent forward to fight. There would be plenty of resentment over that, on the part of the men, and the families they leave behind. "Yes, your daddy was safe when the war started, but they put a woman in his job and sent him up to get killed."

 

- dropping newly-drafted people into some support roles can really hurt the fighting end of the supply chain, especially if the experienced people are pulled out and sent forward.

 

I'm not even sure what the point of the draft is now, anyway. Look at the current political fighting over a national effort to stop the spread of Covid-19 -- something that should unite everyone behind the effort, and imagine how it would play out if anyone even hinted at implementing a draft, for any reason.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

19 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

I disagree.  I was the sole support for my family and the Army paid me enough to take care of them.  I did the best I could, got promoted ahead of my contemporaries and eventually earned a decent living.  It wasn't lush but it was enough.

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

10 hours ago, Ozark Huckleberry said:

Any discussion about women registering for the draft has to include the consideration of a call-up. Otherwise registering is symbolic, but pointless.

 

By extension, any consideration of a call-up has to deal with the roles women would fill in that call-up. That has to include sorting out women's capacity for combat.

 

Exclude women from combat roles, and relegate them to rear-echelon duties such as logistics, maintenance, admin, etc., and there are outcomes that become apparent:

 

- if the draft is implemented, men who are filling the rear-echelon positions prior to the draft would be displaced by the women draftees, and sent forward to fight. There would be plenty of resentment over that, on the part of the men, and the families they leave behind. "Yes, your daddy was safe when the war started, but they put a woman in his job and sent him up to get killed."

 

- dropping newly-drafted people into some support roles can really hurt the fighting end of the supply chain, especially if the experienced people are pulled out and sent forward.

 

I'm not even sure what the point of the draft is now, anyway. Look at the current political fighting over a national effort to stop the spread of Covid-19 -- something that should unite everyone behind the effort, and imagine how it would play out if anyone even hinted at implementing a draft, for any reason.

All right then, grant them exemptions but don't give them the same rights and privileges....... and this will lead to more demands for what they aren't earning.  What you are proposing will eventually lead to the old "bare foot and pregnant" arguments and a lot more resentment.

[Mud Marine,SASS#54686 Life]

When women's hips no longer fracture when jumping. I guess that it would be OK. For hat it's worth, my last draft card, after the Corps, had me at 5A!!!! 

[Ozark Huckleberry]

12 hours ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

All right then, grant them exemptions but don't give them the same rights and privileges....... and this will lead to more demands for what they aren't earning.  What you are proposing will eventually lead to the old "bare foot and pregnant" arguments and a lot more resentment.

 

Check my post again -- I didn't 'propose' anything.

 

I was pointing out the pitfalls of the, 'draft women, but only in supporting roles,' argument.

 

As far as, 'don't give them the same rights and privileges' goes -- just how long do you think that policy would survive, given the way entitlements and benefits are handled nowadays? And you're right back to the part where men are displaced from support roles to be put into combat.

 

 

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

Gender thingy didn't seem to work very well for Corporal Klinger back in Korea era. 

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

On 3/4/2020 at 1:05 PM, Captain Bill Burt said:

That's an example of why I don't think women are physically up to being combat soldiers.  If everyone on the field is a woman, sure OK, but they're not. Can your average woman carry all the stuff you described and move as well as the average man?  I think not. Can the average woman carry all that crap and still put rounds on target as well as the average guy.  Again, I don't think so.  Are there some exceptions, sure, but they're exceptions.  

We see the differences in ability in our own sport, and there's not much about our sport that requires a lot of physicality.  

 

Women are just as smart if not smarter than men.  They can be just as brave, just as valiant, they deserve the opportunity to serve in our military, just not in combat. 

 

If a woman can meet the same physical standards as a man, without lowering the standard, sure let her serve in combat.  There won't be many. 

 

So far I haven't read a word about women being COMBAT troops.  

 

There are a huge number of great jobs that don't require a King Kong strength.  One of the best senior officers I ever served with was a small red-haired fire ball who was head of the regimental staff Ordnance office at Cam Rahn Bay in 1968-1969.  I reported to her on behalf of our Battalion when I was the Battalion Staff Supply Officer.  She was as good as any officer I ever worked with and at maybe 5'4" she could likely whip anyone in the area with a very few exceptions.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I haven't read all the post, only the first dozen or so.   But I don't think those who have been

deemed 'Disabled' should all be classified the same, nor 'able' to serve in some capacity.

 

When you got live folks on the edge of a foxhole praying that reinforcements will arrive soon,

you don't want a blind, deaf or lame communicator back at the base passing along communications

to upper command.   You want sharp, skilled folks who are just as able to support you in a fox hole

as well as out of the fox hole.

 

You don't want someone with a known disability tightening the lug nuts on your jeep.

Disabilities range from Alcoholism to MS, where energy levels and cognizant functions 

can change within a few moments.

 

How would you like to be hiding in a tight spot or fox hole with someone with an allergy?

They sneeze and the next thing you know, a grenade, rocket, etc..... is dropping down on you.

 

No thanks.

 

As far as women being required for the draft..... I ain't sold on it.

I am sold on the fact that women are, and can be, great soldiers and warriors in time of conflict.

But right now, I don't think women should be 'required' to register for the draft.

 

..........Widder

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

51 minutes ago, Forty Rod SASS 3935 said:

So far I haven't read a word about women being COMBAT troops.  

 

There are a huge number of great jobs that don't require a King Kong strength.  One of the best senior officers I ever served with was a small red-haired fire ball who was head of the regimental staff Ordnance office at Cam Rahn Bay in 1968-1969.  I reported to her on behalf of our Battalion when I was the Battalion Staff Supply Officer.  She was as good as any officer I ever worked with and at maybe 5'4" she could likely whip anyone in the area with a very few exceptions.

 

On 3/3/2020 at 9:15 PM, DocWard said:

Because women can and do now serve in combat roles, yes, they should be required to register for the draft. I say that despite having two daughters in their twenties. I also prefer to attempt to maintain an all volunteer force, though.

 

My concern, as odd as it may seem, is how long we will be able to maintain an all volunteer force, particularly if the more "progressive" elements of the Democratic Party get their way. How so? Why do many join the military today? Things like learning a trade, or for college money, or even for healthcare. Prior to 9/11, I could probably count on one hand the number I knew who joined purely for "God and Country." There was a spike afterward, but now, all these years later, we have kids joining who have no memory of 9/11/2001. So long as the world remains as it is, we will need a strong force. Not to turn this political, but it seems if the left had their way, with "free" college and "free" healthcare, etc... might force us in the direction of a draft.

 

On 3/3/2020 at 5:38 PM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

yes to draft as they have now qualified for combat duty. Interesting aspect to equal rights.  Some of the results may not be what was expected.

Saw a You Tube video. Women punches a man, he punched her back. She calls cops to have him arrested for hitting a women. Cop was showed the tape form 29 phones. She got arrested for battery. Beware of what you ask for.

 

You may have missed a post or two Forty Rod.

 

To be clear, I'm well aware that woman can serve honorably and with distinction in a large number of roles, and I'm ok with a draft for woman, as long as if they become combat troops they're held to the same physical standard as men and the standards don't get watered down.

 

If Mattis isn't convinced that's good enough for me. 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2018/09/25/mattis-jury-is-out-on-women-succeeding-in-combat-jobs/