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Kirk James

WTC

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Widder has the answer and won't share!  Just for that I take back none of the good things I've said about you Widder!

 

Both of them?

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I'm still in this camp..

It says to engage the 6 targets on rifle rack..

it doesn't state in original OP that they were knockdowns.. 

or if they were?? they had to be knocked down..

He engaged them all with 7 rounds (hit them all finally) not having a miss..

but.. He only had 3 rounds left to alternate on the buffaloes..

Still just 1 miss..

 

Rance;)

 

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Rance, actually it does. It said engage the 6 plates. Later it says you can make up plates not knocked down with your shot gun. SO the plates were to be knocked down.

Still a P and 1 miss.

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I can see how there could be some confusion with the writer's intent as to how the stage should be shot. At our club, we set up the day before the match. The MD, TG, club pres, and likely PM's talk the stage over. If something is unclear, it is re-written so all understand it. The PM/RO explains it to the posse when the stage is read.

As I read it, it is a miss and a P. It does not say that the buffalos are dump plates. It calls for 4 rounds on them. Miss for only 3. Since it says missed plate can be made up with SG, the extra shot on the plates is a P.

 

As my good buddy Rance might  close: Marshal ( thinking that this is the way it should be, but then again I could be wrong) Chance Morgun

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5 hours ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

Look at it this way.  If you had 10 targets in a line and instructions were to engage all 10. If the shooter hit 1,2,3,4 missed 5, hit 5,6,7,8,9 for 10 shots how many hits did they have?  9 hits but earned a P.

 

The miss was on #5.

 

If the instructions said to engage all 10 targets, not specifying an order, and the shooter hit 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 in the manner you described, it is only scored as a miss, not a P. The 5th bullet out of the gun did not hit a target and we can attribute it to target 10 as there was no order stated, regardless of what target you assumed they were aiming at.

 

If the instructions said to sweep all 10 targets starting on an end, and the shooter hit 1,2,3,4 missed 5, hit 5,6,7,8,9, the get a miss for the initial miss on 5 and a P for hitting the 5th target with the 6th bullet.

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7 hours ago, KingSnake said:

image.thumb.png.53f423f9f70f51dc4242576d6d7a8895.png

 

 

 

18 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Directions:  from position 1, with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the (plate) rack, then alternate on the two buffalo's for 4 rounds (buffalo are stationary targets).  Shooter hits the first four plates, misses the fifth, hits the fifth and sixth then alternates for 3 rounds.  Misses on the plate rack can be made up on a shotgun target which the shooter does.  Everything else is shot correctly.  WTC

 

The cowboys on the rack and the Buffalo targets are all designated rifle type targets. Rounds 1-6 were designated for the rack, 7-10 on the buffalo targets. When the shooter hits the rack target with round 7, they earned a P as their hit did not impact the correct target (one of the buffalo targets).  


SHB Pg 23

Quote

 

Procedural (P) infractions include:

Shooting targets in the wrong order.

 

 

Simplify it out to this...square target, round target. Instructions say dump 5 on square then dump 5 on round.  Shooter dumps 6 on square and 4 on round. Give him the P and call up the next shooter.

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How about from the Miss Flow Chart.

  - Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?  My answer is no, shooter did not engage or hit a buffalo with a 4th shot.  Assess Misses (1).

  - Were the targets hit in the correct order except for any misses?  No, target #5 was shot at twice.

  - Did the target placement give the shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument?  Yes.  Assess Procedural.

 

The initial miss on the plate rack was allowed to be made up with the SG and it was. 

Shooter should receive one miss for the 4th buffalo and a procedural for shooting 7 rounds at the 6 plate targets.

 

That's what I see from my seat in the stands,

BS

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25 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

as there was no order stated

 

Wrong!   The instructions specifically say "then alternate on the buffalo targets for 4 shots".  This places an order of 6 shots on knockdowns, THEN 4 shots on stationary targets.  

 

If the miss with 5th shot were assigned to target 10, then the shooter gets a P for shooting target 10 before he finished shooting t6he 6 plate rack targets.  AND you would be ignoring the fact that the shooter was shooting a straight sweep pattern when he fired 5th shot, but then made the mistake of reengaging fifth target with the 6th shot.   (Of course, there is the P that would have come from the shooter firing the 7th shot on a plate rack target.  That shot had to go on a stationary target!   But, rules prevent assigning 2 Ps in a stage.)

 

If the miss with 5th shot is following along with the order which the shooter actually used, then he both missed when shooting at 5th target, and reengaged the fifth target with the sixth shot.   Earning a P right there (he only had 6 shots for those six knockdowns, and he is not allowed by rules to reengage a missed target with the rifle), and THEN earning the "round not fired" (miss) on the tenth target because he did not have any more shots to fire from rifle.

 

STILL a P and a Miss.

 

Good luck, GJ   

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29 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Wrong!   The instructions specifically say "then alternate on the buffalo targets for 4 shots".  This places an order of 6 shots on knockdowns, THEN 4 shots on stationary targets.  

 

 

Joe,

 

I would appreciate it if my quote was not taken out of its context. My reply was to another specific scenario, which I quoted in my post. His stated scenario had no order specified (emphasis added).

 

  6 hours ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

Look at it this way.  If you had 10 targets in a line and instructions were to engage all 10. If the shooter hit 1,2,3,4 missed 5, hit 5,6,7,8,9 for 10 shots how many hits did they have?  9 hits but earned a P.

 

The miss was on #5.

In that reply, the poster inaccurately attributed a P to the shooter as there was no order specified.

 

Read my other post where I agree with you on the order for the OP for the P awarded to the OP

 

Although, where are you scoring a miss? Best case, all the plates are down when he finishes shooting the rifle, the 7th shot, where he scored the P, hit a correct type target, although the incorrect target to be engaged at that moment. In the worst case, he shot the SG to make up for the downed plate he did not hit with the rifle.

 

 

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It seems to me - if you want to ask about or show a different scenario; it would be a great idea to start another thread & save a bunch of confusion. JMHO

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Where's PWB on this?

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40 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

If the miss with 5th shot is following along with the order which the shooter actually used, then he both missed when shooting at 5th target, and reengaged the fifth target with the sixth shot.   Earning a P right there (he only had 6 shots for those six knockdowns, and he is not allowed by rules to reengage a missed target with the rifle), and THEN earning the "round not fired" (miss) on the tenth target because he did not have any more shots to fire from rifle.

 

STILL a P and a Miss.

 

Good luck, GJ   

 

Where, in the stage instructions, does it specify the order that the first 6 shots on the plate rack are to be engaged other than "with the rifle engage the 6 cowboys on the rack"?

 

You cannot judge the shooter's intent on what target the 5th bullet was intended for as it could have been, by stage instructions, designated for 1 of 2 targets left on the rack at that point in time regardless of what the shooter did before and/or after that action.

 

Stage required 10 rounds out of the rifle.Did he shoot 10?

 

It is also important to note that the rack AND the buffalo targets are all 'rifle' targets.

 

Some of this can be simplified by focusing on the rounds instead of the targets when going through the flow chart.

 

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

   No. They shot the correct number of rounds, however the 5th round did not hit a target.

      Assess Misses.

         Wait...Any knockdowns that remain standing or are not made up with the shotgun will count as misses. 

              Shooter rang the bell with the shotgun to make up the miss.

Were the targets hit in the correct order except for misses

   No. the 7th round hit one of the targets designated for rounds 1-6.

       Did the target placement cause an issue(condensed)

            No. Assess procedural

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For the folks wanting the shooter to load an 11th round to engage the other buffalo to clear the miss, please answer these two things:

 

What is the penalty for shooting 11 rifle rounds down range when the stage instructions only specify that you shoot 10, expecting that the round was carried to the line in an approved manner?

 

What is the penalty if the shooter shot the first six rounds hitting six plates and knocking them down, had an AD sending the 7th round over the top of the plate rack (nowhere near the buffalo targets) and into the back berm, and then alternated between the 2 buffalo targets for 3 rounds?

 

Correctly understanding these 2 points will help in understanding the OP.

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Just a smallish point to consider - If responders stay with the stated situation in the original post- it will be much easier to understand and answer. Adding what ifs, etc. etc.  to it merely muddles things away from the original question. If you want to consider a variation, start another thread - PLEASE!!

ok - rant over.....

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20 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

For the folks wanting the shooter to load an 11th round to engage the other buffalo to clear the miss, please answer these two things:

 

What is the penalty for shooting 11 rifle rounds down range when the stage instructions only specify that you shoot 10, expecting that the round was carried to the line in an approved manner?

That would be a "P".
But, since the shooter already had a "
P" for hitting a plate with a round designated for one of the stationary targets, it would only be wasted time & ammo.

 

What is the penalty if the shooter shot the first six rounds hitting six plates and knocking them down, had an AD sending the 7th round over the top of the plate rack (nowhere near the buffalo targets) and into the back berm, and then alternated between the 2 buffalo targets for 3 rounds?
A miss.

 

Correctly understanding these 2 points will help in understanding the OP.

 

FWIW...I agree with your call re the OP.
 

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Shooter did not have a failure to knockdown all 6 targets.   All six were down.  Where does he get the right to fire the shotgun to make up for a knockdown that was not hit.  Description says: 

Quote

Any knockdowns are still standing you may make them up by engaging the bell with the shotgun

 

When there are NO rifle knockdowns standing, the shooter does not get to make up a rifle miss (that #5 shot)!  Per these instructions.

 

That shotgun makeup shot was a wasted shot that could have no effect other than the time the shooter took to fire it, because the CONDITION under which the makeup could be shot was not present when the rifle string was finished.  He was not allowed to fire that extra shotgun shell because the CONDITION did not exist.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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Has the stage writer chimed in here yet?

 

The only reason there was no plate remaining was because the shooter fired 7 shots on the plates instead of 6 as specified (incurring a "P" for hitting the rifle targets "out of order").

The shooter changed the condition of the make-up allowance by re-engaging the missed T5 (not allowed by stage instruction)...he should have left T6 standing, "then alternate on the 2 buffalos for and additional 4 rounds"

IMO, loading and firing an extra SG round to "make-up the miss" was a reasonable (time penalizing) solution to the problem caused by the shooter failing to follow the stage instructions.

There is no miss for "failure to engage" the last buffalo target, as the shooter fired the required 10 rifle shots for the stage (albeit in the wrong order).

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

by re-engaging the missed T5

 

"Rifle cartridge" makeup shots are not allowed by rule.  They are not supported by the stage instructions either.   Re-engaging the missed T5 is a P.   And firing that round on T5 means it could not be fired AS REQUIRED by the stage instructions on target S2 (second stationary target).   Sound like a miss to me and to the Miss Flow Chart.

 

Even if you invoke the almost completely ridiculous claim that shot 5 missed target S2, then shot 7 does not belong on T6, because only 6 shots were allowed on KD targets.

 

So when does the shooter have the ability to change conditions for shooting the stage?  Don't stage instructions apply regardless of what the shooter does?   If the shooter can "change conditions" depending upon how they shoot, we are going to be in real deep trouble enforcing rules.   JMHO

 

Good luck, GJ

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What about the shooter who misses Target five, re-engages Target five and hits it, and Target 6 just falls over at the same time? 

 

Did that also change the condition of the stage?

 

 

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For PWB:

The first question in the Miss Flow Chart is "Did shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo".  The answer is no.  ALL of the rifle targets were not hit.  That should be a miss.

The fact that the shooter had shot 10 rounds should be moot.

I stick with 1 miss and a P.

 

Respectfully, 

BS 

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Hey PaleWolf,

I wrote the stage. The shooter was instructed to engage the bell incorrectly by the TO, I was not on that posse. He was given bad instruction by the TO, there was no need to engage the bell! I understand he was given a re-shoot for that reason. My call was “P” & miss. Missed shots on the stationary targets are designated as misses in the stage instructions.

 

TB

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Is the call a procedural with no miss on the original post? No other instructions were given and all the other shooters on the posse shot it correctly.  Appreciate King Snake for posting the stage.   

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23 minutes ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said:

Hey PaleWolf,

I wrote the stage. The shooter was instructed to engage the bell incorrectly by the TO, I was not on that posse. He was given bad instruction by the TO, there was no need to engage the bell! I understand he was given a re-shoot for that reason. My call was “P” & miss. Missed shots on the stationary targets are designated as misses in the stage instructions.

 

TB

So bad instruction from the TO erased 15 seconds of penalty time and possibly changed the final standings in the category?:unsure: 

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12 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

So bad instruction from the TO erased 15 seconds of penalty time and possibly changed the final standings in the category?:unsure: 

 

That's how a RESHOOT for "improper coaching" works.

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Oh, I understand and agree with a reshoot for improper coaching. It's just that improper coaching usually messes up the shooter and adds time, not eases earned penalty time. ( yes, I know that the unnecessary SG round did add time that should not have been added) 

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Phew, long trip to get to end of the trail.  :lol:

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Amen brother!

TB

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11 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Phew, long trip to get to end of the trail.  :lol:

 

What better way to sit at the lunch table with Pards and talk over 'stuff'.

Besides, PWB enjoys our 3-4 page chit-chats..... :D

 

..........Widder

 

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Just sayin'. It's difficult to believe that a simple and correct call of a P & 1 miss in this occurrence has generated 3 pages of opinions. I'm a short-timer in Sass, only started in 2005. Been an RO2 since 2006 with several renewals. I've witnessed almost this same scenario more then once. It's a slam dunk call, folks! Stay current on the rules, understand them & problem doesn't exist.  Just my considered & ( I believe) qualified opinion.

DC

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And to be clear, the "how to shoot the stage" states ENGAGE the 6 plate rack targets and then alternate the buffaloes for 4 rnds.. Very clear directions. Seems purty clear to me but, considering my limited experience, maybe I'm wrong.

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On 2/10/2020 at 1:16 PM, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

P with no misses..the shooter did make good with the shotgun but only 3 on the buffalo instead of the instructed 4.

I stand corrected as of course there is a miss along with the P'..I still say with respect a poorly written stage description.

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 This was an excellent stage that everyone enjoyed and understood.  One shooter earned a P.  Every time someone gets a P does not make a bad stage, bad TO or bad shooter. Trust me, I have had enough P's, just not this time.   Simply shoot the 6 plates on the plate rack and alternate on the two stationary targets for four targets. .  Doesn't get much easier.  It even gave the opportunity to make up a plate left standing by using your shotgun on the bell after the ten shots.  My purpose of posting was to make sure I knew the correct penalties.  As noted by 3 pages of discussion, the penalty to be assessed was confusing to some of us.    I appreciate everyone 's input and your keeping up with our madness Pale Wolfe.  Your a patient man!!!  Thanks

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13 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Has the stage writer chimed in here yet?

 

The only reason there was no plate remaining was because the shooter fired 7 shots on the plates instead of 6 as specified (incurring a "P" for hitting the rifle targets "out of order").

The shooter changed the condition of the make-up allowance by re-engaging the missed T5 (not allowed by stage instruction)...he should have left T6 standing, "then alternate on the 2 buffalos for and additional 4 rounds"

IMO, loading and firing an extra SG round to "make-up the miss" was a reasonable (time penalizing) solution to the problem caused by the shooter failing to follow the stage instructions.

There is no miss for "failure to engage" the last buffalo target, as the shooter fired the required 10 rifle shots for the stage (albeit in the wrong order).

 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

"Rifle cartridge" makeup shots are not allowed by rule.  They are not supported by the stage instructions either.   Re-engaging the missed T5 is a P.   And firing that round on T5 means it could not be fired AS REQUIRED by the stage instructions on target S2 (second stationary target).   Sound like a miss to me and to the Miss Flow Chart.

 

Even if you invoke the almost completely ridiculous claim that shot 5 missed target S2, then shot 7 does not belong on T6, because only 6 shots were allowed on KD targets.

 

So when does the shooter have the ability to change conditions for shooting the stage?  Don't stage instructions apply regardless of what the shooter does?   If the shooter can "change conditions" depending upon how they shoot, we are going to be in real deep trouble enforcing rules.   JMHO

 

Good luck, GJ

 

9 hours ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

Just sayin'. It's difficult to believe that a simple and correct call of a P & 1 miss in this occurrence has generated 3 pages of opinions. I'm a short-timer in Sass, only started in 2005. Been an RO2 since 2006 with several renewals. I've witnessed almost this same scenario more then once. It's a slam dunk call, folks! Stay current on the rules, understand them & problem doesn't exist.  Just my considered & ( I believe) qualified opinion.

DC

Well, I just seen this post. What is the correct call, just for closure. It's like a good book I was reading with the last page missin.

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13 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

For PWB:

The first question in the Miss Flow Chart is "Did shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo".  The answer is no.  ALL of the rifle targets were not hit.  That should be a miss.

The fact that the shooter had shot 10 rounds should be moot.

I stick with 1 miss and a P.

 

Respectfully, 

BS 

I'm curious.....if you have 10 rifle targets and the instructions are to hit each target once and a shooter double taps one of the targets do you give them a P and a Miss? In that scenario "All" of the rifle targets would not be hit.

 

Stan

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