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Kirk James

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6 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Think of this: plate rack make-ups are stipulated to be made up with the shotgun, shooter made up a plate rack miss with his rifle... P

Shooter then only fired three rounds at buffalos: Miss

 

 

1 hour ago, KingSnake said:

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I agree with Rainmaker.  "Any knockdowns still standing....bell with SG"  So, rifle KD and SG flying cans can be made up with SG engaging the bell.  When the shooter missed the rifle KD he should've kept going, by knocking it down with his next shot he incurred the P then by only shooting 3 of the 4 required rifle static targets that gives him a miss.  At least that's the way I understand it.

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9 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Not intended to dispute your good points, but thru this entire thread, I've wondered:

Can the 'P' on the plate rack warrant a Miss on the stationary targets because there wasn't

4 rounds remaining in the rifle to fire 4 times?

 

..........Widder

 

If you had a stage with rifle targets set up in 2 arrays, and the shooter was instructed to shoot 5 at each array, but they shot 6 at one and 4 at the other hitting rifle targets with all 10 shots. Did they earn a miss because they did not shoot 5 at the second array?  No they hit 10 rifle targets, not as per stage instructions,  but they did earn a P.

 

Ten shots fired on rifle targets, 9 hits.  The P negates the order targets need to be shot as long as the shooter isn't trying to gain an advantage by dumping on one target.

 

Here the miss occurred on the plate rack and the stage instructions allowed for a make up on misses on the plate rack for plates still standing, there weren't any left standing, thus the shooter cannot make up a miss by shooting the bell with their shotgun.  Shooters mistake.  The miss was on the plate rack and the P was earned on shot #7 shot at the plate rack.  

 

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3 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

No miss for only hitting Buffalos 3 times?

 

Look at it this way.  If you had 10 targets in a line and instructions were to engage all 10. If the shooter hit 1,2,3,4 missed 5, hit 5,6,7,8,9 for 10 shots how many hits did they have?  9 hits but earned a P.

 

The miss was on #5.

 

If someone shot and hit 1,2,3,4,5,5,6,7,8,9 but did not have enough for the 10th target, they would have 10 hits and a P.   You could not assess them a miss because they did not hit target #10.

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Kingsnake,

 

Thanks for posting the actual stage instructions. As one can see the instructions were clear, engage the 6 plates on the rack with 6 rounds, then alternate for 4 rounds on the Buffalos. Shooter chose to re-engage the 5 plate after missing it, hence firing 7 rounds a the 6 plates, that's a P for not following stage instructions, that left him or her only 3 rounds left to fire at the Buffalos so hence the Miss. The shooter had an opportunity to make up the 5th plate they missed while engaging the plate rack by engaging the bell with the shotgun. They chose to shoot re-engage the 5 plate, "P"

 

Can't be any clearer!

 

TB

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28 minutes ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

If you had a stage with rifle targets set up in 2 arrays, and the shooter was instructed to shoot 5 at each array, but they shot 6 at one and 4 at the other hitting rifle targets with all 10 shots. Did they earn a miss because they did not shoot 5 at the second array?  No they hit 10 rifle targets, not as per stage instructions,  but they did earn a P.

 

Ten shots fired on rifle targets, 9 hits.  The P negates the order targets need to be shot as long as the shooter isn't trying to gain an advantage by dumping on one target.

 

Here the miss occurred on the plate rack and the stage instructions allowed for a make up on misses on the plate rack for plates still standing, there weren't any left standing, thus the shooter cannot make up a miss by shooting the bell with their shotgun.  Shooters mistake.  The miss was on the plate rack and the P was earned on shot #7 shot at the plate rack.  

 

When you hit a target with the wrong gun, it counts as a miss.  So that 7th round on the plate rack is a miss whether it hit the target or not.  You've twice mentioned scenarios that are not applicable to this one because in both cases the targets don't allow for makeups with the shotgun.  That changes everything.  In the scenario you mentioned above it's a P, but not a miss, because they are all rifle targets and remain such.  In the OP scenario, once the sixth round is fired, they're no longer rifle targets, they're nothing and not meant to be hit by any guns at that point, as makeups are with the SG on a different target.  Hitting a target with the wrong gun is not a p, it's a miss.  For example, if the scenario calls for a Nevada sweep on rifle targets and your first shot with the rifle hits a pistol target, that's a miss, not a P.  Yes, you will end up one shot short on the rifle, but it's still not a P.

 

It's an interesting WTC.  I look forward to PWB's thoughts.

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2 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When you hit a target with the wrong gun, it counts as a miss.  So that 7th round on the plate rack is a miss whether it hit the target or not.  You've twice mentioned scenarios that are not applicable to this one because in both cases the targets don't allow for makeups with the shotgun.  That changes everything.  In the scenario you mentioned above it's a P, but not a miss, because they are all rifle targets and remain such.  In the OP scenario, once the sixth round is fired, they're no longer rifle targets, they're nothing and not meant to be hit by any guns at that point, as makeups are with the SG on a different target.  Hitting a target with the wrong gun is not a p, it's a miss.  For example, if the scenario calls for a Nevada sweep on rifle targets and your first shot with the rifle hits a pistol target, that's a miss, not a P.  Yes, you will end up one shot short on the rifle, but it's still not a P.

 

It's an interesting WTC.  I look forward to PWB's thoughts.

 

In my opinion the cowboy plate rack and buffalo targets are rifle targets and remain so for the entire shooting string, you seem to think otherwise.  In this case the shooter could make up a miss on the plate rack by shooting their shotgun at another target (listed as a bell) to make up misses on the plate rack for plates left standing; there were none in this case.  The shooter earned the miss. 

 

Where in SASS rules or these stage instructions does it state that the first 6 rifle targets are no longer rifle targets after the 6th round is fired? 

 

Let's see how PWB interprets this one.

 

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1 minute ago, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

 

In my opinion the cowboy plate rack and buffalo targets are rifle targets and remain so for the entire shooting string, you seem to think otherwise.  In this case the shooter could make up a miss on the plate rack by shooting their shotgun at another target (listed as a bell) to make up misses on the plate rack for plates left standing; there were none in this case.  The shooter earned the miss. 

 

Where in SASS rules or these stage instructions does it state that the first 6 rifle targets are no longer rifle targets after the 6th round is fired? 

 

Let's see how PWB interprets this one.

 

That statement is in the stage instructions which state that six rounds go on the plates (misses made up on the bell) then 4 on the static. Pretty clear that after six no further rifle rounds, or any other rounds, are to go on the plates. As you said it will be interesting to see what PWB says.

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Just now, Captain Bill Burt said:

That statement is in the stage instructions which state that six rounds go on the plates (misses made up on the bell) then 4 on the static. Pretty clear that after six no further rifle rounds, or any other rounds, are to go on the plates. As you said it will be interesting to see what PWB says.

 

That is one way a shooter earns a "P", by shooting targets out of order per the stage instructions.  I am speaking from experience getting my share of P's in CAS. :)

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Just now, J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526 said:

 

That is one way a shooter earns a "P", by shooting targets out of order per the stage instructions.  I am speaking from experience getting my share of P's in CAS. :)

I'm with you on that one.  One thing I know for 100% sure, if I'm wrong on this one it won't be the first time!

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Remember that there were no unfired rounds.  A P cannot causse" a miss."

 

So go through the flow chart, step by step.

 

Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

No - assess misses.  1 Miss

 

Were the targets engaged in the correct order except for misses - no,

Was a clean miss allowed by the set up - yes - assess procedure.

 

(When did they earn the procedure - when they took two shots at target 5.)

So they missed target 5 and due to their procedure did not have ammo for the last target.  Again, the P resulted in not having ammo for the last target - but the rules state a P and a miss cannot be both "awarded."

 

And the stage instructions say you can make up a miss on the plate rack with the shotgun, which the shooter did.

 

So score 1 P.

 

In generally, if you have a string of 10 targets, miss a middle one, get confused and try again, thus leaving the last target, you get a P only.  You are not given both a miss and a P for the one mistake.

 

 

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Ok, I'll buy that the 4th stationary target is not a miss, due to the P.

But the miss on #5 plate was to be made up with the SG, not the rifle - Miss

At this point all the KD are down with No opportunity for a make up.

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1 minute ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

There were no KD left up...

KD's left standing were to be made up with SG, meaning only 6 rounds could be fired at plate, not 7. Hence the "make up with SG" part of the Stage Instructions

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Different scenario, but same underlying principle.  5 rifle targets 5 pistol targets.  Instructions say double tap the rifles, then double tap the pistols.  Shooter doubles four rifle targets misses his 9th round on the 5 target and hits it with his tenth round, draws pistol(s) and places his first round on the 10th rifle target.  WTC?  2 misses, no P.

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The instructions and basic math tell the shooter, engage 6 on the plate rack. "then alternate on the two Buffalos for 4 rounds". Nothing said with rounds remaining.

Instructions say, 'any knockdowns still standing you can make them up by engaging the bell'. Nothing was said about making up misses on the Buffalos on the bell.

P for shooting 7 rounds at the plates, 1 miss for not hitting the Buffalos with 4 rounds, only 3.

P+1

Shooting the shotgun at the bell at the end was a waste of time. It counted for nothing.

Ike

 

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6 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Different scenario, but same underlying principle.  5 rifle targets 5 pistol targets.  Instructions say double tap the rifles, then double tap the pistols.  Shooter doubles four rifle targets misses his 9th round on the 5 target and hits it with his tenth round, draws pistol(s) and places his first round on the 10th rifle target.  WTC?  1 miss, no P.

 

This whole thread is interesting... in your scenario, wouldn't the Miss with his 9th rifle round be a Miss and the Pistol hit on a rifle target also be a Miss?  2 Misses?

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Just now, McCandless said:

 

This whole thread is interesting... in your scenario, wouldn't the Miss with his 9th rifle round be a Miss and the Pistol hit on a rifle target also be a Miss?  2 Misses?

Sorry, you're right.  A miss with the rifle on 10 then a miss with the first pistol! 


Thanks,

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I'm changing my call based upon reading the actual stage instructions.

 

1 - miss + 1 - P + Wasted time with 1 shotgun shot.

 

Here's why.....Shooter missed the 5th plate but downed it with the 6th shot. That earned a P. Shot the 6th plate down so ALL of the plates are down. Finished on the static targets. Attempted to make up the miss by shooting the bell with his shotgun however........as per stage instructions, Any knockdowns still standing you may make them up by engaging the bell with the shotgun. There were no knockdowns still standing to make up so the shotgun shot at the bell was actually a waste of time as there was nothing to make up.

 

Interesting WTC. I look forward to PWB's call.

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Well, how about this - stage instructions say “Rifle loaded with 10 rounds”. Direction say engage the 6 plates THEN alternate on 2 buffalos for 4 rounds.  This logically leaves 6 rounds to expend on 6 plate rack plates. Shooter engages 6 plates with 7 rounds -“P”. Which is for the extra(7th shot) on the 6 plates. The miss on the 5 plate did not cause the “P” the 7th shot did. Then, since stage instruction say 4 shots on 2 buffalo - the shooter has only 3 remaining - hence, a miss. So, a “P” and a miss. Next shooter please!

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Let's see how PWB interprets this one.

I'm sure PWB is laughing, at this point, and waiting to see what else comes out here.  So I'll take a go at it too. 

P for shooting the wrong rifle target order.  Shot 6 went on prior missed R-5, shot 7 went on R-6 and one Buffalo was not shot. 

No miss, double jeopardy rule, (plus miss was apparently made up with SG. - - although instructions did not say miss on buffalo could be made up--still double jeopardy) 

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3 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I'm sure PWB is laughing, at this point, and waiting to see what else comes out here.  So I'll take a go at it too. 

P for shooting the wrong rifle target order.  Shot 6 went on prior missed R-5, shot 7 went on R-6 and one Buffalo was not shot. 

No miss, double jeopardy rule, (plus miss was apparently made up with SG. - - although instructions did not say miss on buffalo could be made up--still double jeopardy) 

He's been online on a couple of other threads.  The wheels are turning and soon there will be a proclamation I hope 

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1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

He's been online on a couple of other threads.  The wheels are turning and soon there will be a proclamation I hope 

I hope so too. 

This is a fun one, unless you're the CRO/TO or a spotter, with need to quickly make the calls.   

 

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Widder has the answer and won't share!  Just for that I take back none of the good things I've said about you Widder!

 

I'm waiting for the Blue Ink Marshall to make it official..... :D

 

Besides, if we all start putting down the right answer(s), he could loose his high paying job

as a Wire referee AND..... his blue ink subsidies......... :lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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5 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I'm sure PWB is laughing, at this point, and waiting to see what else comes out here.  So I'll take a go at it too. 

P for shooting the wrong rifle target order.  Shot 6 went on prior missed R-5, shot 7 went on R-6 and one Buffalo was not shot. 

No miss, double jeopardy rule, (plus miss was apparently made up with SG. - - although instructions did not say miss on buffalo could be made up--still double jeopardy) 

 

A miss CAN cause a P, let me explain.......

 

Targets: 1 - plate rack with 5 plates and 2 - static targets. Shotgun doesn't matter in this instance.

 

Rifle - 10 rounds. Engage the 5 plates until down, then engage one of the static targets with remaining rounds. Plates still standing will be a miss.

 

Pistol - Doesn't matter in this instance

 

Shooter shoots rifle at the plate rack with 7 shots, 7th shot edges last plate but doesn't knock it down. Shooter engages static plate with the next 3 shots.

 

Shooter earns a P and a miss. The stage instructions dictate that the static target is to be engaged AFTER the plates are down by the use of the word THEN.

Don't think it can happen, guess again, it did.

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3 minutes ago, Cypress Sun said:

 

A miss CAN cause a P, let me explain.......

 

Targets: 1 - plate rack with 5 plates and 2 - static targets. Shotgun doesn't matter in this instance.

 

Rifle - 10 rounds. Engage the 5 plates until down, then engage one of the static targets with remaining rounds. Plates still standing will be a miss.

 

Pistol - Doesn't matter in this instance

 

Shooter shoots rifle at the plate rack with 7 shots, 7th shot edges last plate but doesn't knock it down. Shooter engages static plate with the next 3 shots.

 

Shooter earns a P and a miss. The stage instructions dictate that the static target is to be engaged AFTER the plates are down by the use of the word THEN.

Don't think it can happen, guess again, it did.

A miss did not cause a P.  The plate was still standing after 7 shots.  The shooter has 3 more tries to knock it down.  The shooter did not follow the instructions to knock all the plates down then engage the static plate.  The shooter gets a miss for leaving the plate up.  The shooter gets a P for hitting the static target while the plate is up.

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