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Shooting Bull

Shooting on the move - Definition?

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Scenario: Shoot rifle and pistols from Table 1, shoot shotgun from Table 2. Not all but at least one shotgun round must pass over the top of Table 2. Gamer finishes rifle and pistols, grabs shotgun and starts to move toward Table 2. Gamer engages first two shotgun targets before getting to Table 2. Gamer finishes moving to Table 2 while emptying and reloading then engages final two shotgun targets with both rounds passing over Table 2. 

 

Knowing you’re not allowed to shoot while “on the move” and thinking about those first two shotgun rounds, what exactly is the definition of “on the move”? 

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Shooters handbook pg 12 

Movement is not allowed with a loaded round under the hammer of any firearm.
Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has
a loaded round under the hammer of a firearm in hand, at least one foot must
remain in place on the ground. The first violation will result in a Stage
Disqualification penalty. The second violation will result in a Match
Disqualification penalty assessment. Note: Shuffling the feet to maintain balance
or adjust the shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually
change location.

 

No call As long as he came to a full stop before closing the action on the shotgun and either fired it or opened it before moving again.

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Think of it as walking, and every time you have two feet on the ground, you fire a shot.

Saw Sage Chick shoot that way at the Guns of August regional one year.

6 shotgun at three different locations, if I remember correctly

It was effective and decreased her shotgun time significantly.

When I first heard about that new rule, 
I thought of her shotgun string, & knew exactly what they were referring to.

--Dawg

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Quote

Shooting on the move (continuous, fluid movement while engaging targets). 

SHB p.23 "SDQ PENALTY"

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Another rule that if repealed wouldn't improve my times a bit... but could sure help those athletically inclined folks...     Just thinkin' out loud... 

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26 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

SHB p.23 "SDQ PENALTY"

 

I saw that and am looking for a more concrete definition. Is it what Turkey 

Flats Jack said? You have to come to a complete stop?

 

To further elaborate, the gamer in question had one foot firmly on the ground but the other foot was off the ground. Was he still moving “leaning” toward the next position? I can’t honestly say. I do know someone in the posse felt he was. 

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"Continuous fluid movement."  I believe that fits the scenario in question.  Which would be a SDQ.  PWB referenced it above. 

 

 

 

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A little further down, reference is made to "Step Shooting."  It was at one time thought so long as "one foot" was on the ground a shooter could continue shooting.  A shooter on the West Coast use to practice on a Tread Mill.  Did not actually stand still.  Step Shooting is now Not Allowed.  you gotta come to a complete stop.  If you cock a pistol or rifle on a live round or close a Double on a live round or close a '97 while moving, you're done.  Think "False Start" and a 5 yard penalty.  Only the second time you do it, you go home.

 

PLUS ONE too Doc Shapiro

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Pretty sure if you're on the move with the shotgun, after you stop and engage your targets, you need to open the action before moving your feets.

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11 minutes ago, Cemetery said:

Pretty sure if you're on the move with the shotgun, after you stop and engage your targets, you need to open the action before moving your feets.

That is incorrect.


SHB page 16

A shotgun is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage in the following condition only: - Action open, round in chamber or on carrier. - Hammer(s) fully down on an empty chamber(s) or expended round(s), action closed.

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One can move while opening, shucking, reloading shotgun. Just have to stop when action is closed with live rounds. Takes a little thought and practice. But does save time. 
 

i also try to “side step” a step or two when appropriate when re-holstering and then drawing my 2nd pistol. 

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59 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

A little further down, reference is made to "Step Shooting."  It was at one time thought so long as "one foot" was on the ground a shooter could continue shooting.  A shooter on the West Coast use to practice on a Tread Mill.  Did not actually stand still.  Step Shooting is now Not Allowed.  you gotta come to a complete stop.  If you cock a pistol or rifle on a live round or close a Double on a live round or close a '97 while moving, you're done.  Think "False Start" and a 5 yard penalty.  Only the second time you do it, you go home.

 

PLUS ONE too Doc Shapiro

 

THAT’S what I was looking for! Thanks! 

 

Nasty Nels I owe you an apology. Not at all sure if I came to a complete stop. Since you said I was moving I need to get the score changed. ;)

 

Thanks for the heads up everybody. :wub:

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Interesting ! I see pistols coming out of the leather, when transitioning between positions, with hammers getting cocked. Need instant replay to see the hammer position, the Barrell direction (170 rule), and movement. 

I'll be much more watchful for this as a spotter !

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18 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Interesting ! I see pistols coming out of the leather, when transitioning between positions, with hammers getting cocked. Need instant replay to see the hammer position, the Barrell direction (170 rule), and movement. 

I'll be much more watchful for this as a spotter !

 

This is just my opinion:

Although you should be commended for being an observant spotter, remember that looking at something from

an off angle can be very deceptive, just as when someone actually cocks their pistol.

 

With the speed of some shooters, they can have their pistols cocked and safely pointed at the targets, yet

their drawing and cocking speeds can be very deceptive.   Proceed with caution when you are actually

looking for violations.

 

..........Widder

 

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2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

A little further down, reference is made to "Step Shooting."  It was at one time thought so long as "one foot" was on the ground a shooter could continue shooting.  A shooter on the West Coast use to practice on a Tread Mill.  Did not actually stand still.  Step Shooting is now Not Allowed.  you gotta come to a complete stop.  If you cock a pistol or rifle on a live round or close a Double on a live round or close a '97 while moving, you're done.  Think "False Start" and a 5 yard penalty.  Only the second time you do it, you go home.

 

PLUS ONE too Doc Shapiro

I may be wrong on this, I have been many times before, but I believe if you're coming into a shooting position you can close the shotgun once one foot is planted and then shoot when you come to a stop, basketball travelling rule. The same should apply to cocking a pistol.

 

Thanks

Randy

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Widder,

agreed.

I won't be "looking" for a violation, but will be more aware and would raise the question if I see a situation that I think is unsafe.

im entering my third year of shooting, and I still have a lot to learn.

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Randy, you read too much into my comment.  Once the shooter is coming to a STOP at the shooting position, and ONE foot is planted and the other foot is coming down, you may cock pistols, close a Double, or close a '97.  Further movement will get you a penalty.  Sorry if I explained it poorly.  I may still be explaining it poorly (hope not).

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20 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Widder,

agreed.

I won't be "looking" for a violation, but will be more aware and would raise the question if I see a situation that I think is unsafe.

im entering my third year of shooting, and I still have a lot to learn.

 

I shoot down in GA at Mystery Dog Ranch during the summer.

I also shoot at the Cleveland, TN club (Ocoee Rangers) and a lot of GA pards travel across the border

to shoot there.

You are more than welcome to spot for me anytime.   Hopefully, we may cross paths this summer.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 you gotta come to a complete stop.

 

55 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Randy, you read too much into my comment.  Once the shooter is coming to a STOP at the shooting position, and ONE foot is planted and the other foot is coming down, you may cock pistols, close a Double, or close a '97.  Further movement will get you a penalty.  Sorry if I explained it poorly.  I may still be explaining it poorly (hope not).

Thanks, the comment in orange is what got me, as others seem to think you have to come to a complete stop before you can cock or close a shotgun.

 

Randy

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7 hours ago, Turkey Flats Jack said:

Shooters handbook pg 12 

Movement is not allowed with a loaded round under the hammer of any firearm.
Movement is defined by the basketball “traveling” rule. Whenever a shooter has
a loaded round under the hammer of a firearm in hand, at least one foot must
remain in place on the ground. The first violation will result in a Stage
Disqualification penalty. The second violation will result in a Match
Disqualification penalty assessment. Note: Shuffling the feet to maintain balance
or adjust the shooting stance is allowed as long as the shooter does not actually
change location.

 

No call As long as he came to a full stop before closing the action on the shotgun and either fired it or opened it before moving again.

Agree, as long as shooter paused in forward motion, and was stopped each time he actually closed the shotgun action.  ( The OP didn't say otherwise, it just said he fired before arriving at Table 2) 

 

I would presume that the reason the Stage Direction said only (at least) one round needed to go over the top of Table 2, would have to be to allow some shots to be taken enroute there, and I would further presume that the Directions were not intended to allow shooting while moving, in contradiction to the SHB prohibitions on moving with a cocked shotgun.   What else could the stage directions have meant?  It would be the shooter's responsibility to make sure he/she stayed compliant by stopping fully before cocking the shotgun.   

The shooter doesn't sound like a gamer, but just a good competitor who is doing a good job of planning transitions, unless he failed to stop, as above.  Then SDQ. 

The test is whether or not he moved both his feet with a closed, cocked shuotgn.  

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26 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

 

The shooter doesn't sound like a gamer, but just a good competitor who is doing a good job of planning transitions, unless he failed to stop, as above.  Then SDQ. 

The test is whether or not he moved both his feet with a closed, cocked shuotgn.  

 

Let’s not get carried away praising the shooter, he can be pretty dense sometimes. ;)

 

I can guarantee one foot was firmly planted. What I don’t know is if I came to a complete stop before shooting. Another shooter said I didn’t. SDQ 

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17 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Let’s not get carried away praising the shooter, he can be pretty dense sometimes. ;)

 

I can guarantee one foot was firmly planted. What I don’t know is if I came to a complete stop before shooting. Another shooter said I didn’t. SDQ 

To me, this would be a very hard one to call.  As a TO, if I didn't actually see both feet move with the gun cocked, I'd be inclined to NC.  Possibly caution the shooter, if it looked sloppy to me.  I wouldn't ruin the shooter's match unless I saw the foot motion FOR SURE.   Many matches have stages with intermediate SG shooting position options.  

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19 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Let’s not get carried away praising the shooter, he can be pretty dense sometimes. ;)

 

I can guarantee one foot was firmly planted. What I don’t know is if I came to a complete stop before shooting. Another shooter said I didn’t. SDQ 

 

Howdy Bull.

"Another Shooter" or one of the Spotters or TO saw it?

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy Bull.

"Another Shooter" or one of the Spotters or TO saw it?

 

..........Widder

 

 

Honest question: does it matter? We’re all safety officers. 

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2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Let’s not get carried away praising the shooter, he can be pretty dense sometimes. ;)

 

I can guarantee one foot was firmly planted. What I don’t know is if I came to a complete stop before shooting. Another shooter said I didn’t. SDQ 

I thought you said the shooter was a real gamer ;)

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Did you stop to shoot or was continuous?  Very fine line with good shooters.  If the shooter has a pause while they shoot, it seems to me they are good.   When it comes to whether or not a shooter was continuous or stopped, I would think the TO is going to gather information to make a decision if one person makes the statement from the gallery or one spotter.  

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13 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

Did you stop to shoot or was continuous?  Very fine line with good shooters.  If the shooter has a pause while they shoot, it seems to me they are good.   When it comes to whether or not a shooter was continuous or stopped, I would think the TO is going to gather information to make a decision if one person makes the statement from the gallery or one spotter.  

My understanding is that only the TO makes the call on everything except misses.   Spotters can advise, but the TO would be out of bounds to call a "P" or SDQ on something he/she didn't actually observe.   What shooters in the background say they saw or didn't see is irrelevant.  Penalties are not voting matters. 

Every shooter is a safety officer and each can watch for safety issues and bring blatant problems to TO attention, but only the TO can assign penalties.   

Please correct me if I am mistaken.  

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I probably shouldn't post this but...   Gads, I really hate this rule.  It causes so many issues, and really prevents this game from some vastly entertaining scenarios.  But it is the current rule and we have to live with it or move on.

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

I probably shouldn't post this but...   Gads, I really hate this rule.  It causes so many issues, and really prevents this game from some vastly entertaining scenarios.  But it is the current rule and we have to live with it or move on.

 

 

And I wrote this stage to give the shooters some latitude about where they wished to shoot from and to adjust the pace of their shooting.

 

Some will shoot two and move, move and shoot four, etc. 

The only parameter I gave was where their shotgun was initially staged (position one) and that "at least one shot MUST pass over the table" at position two (the move to position)

 

These instructions as opposed to generic move to position B and do X.

 

But it seems sometimes trying to give the shooters more than the generic causes more headache (for everybody) than it's worth.

 

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1 hour ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

My understanding is that only the TO makes the call on everything except misses.   Spotters can advise, but the TO would be out of bounds to call a "P" or SDQ on something he/she didn't actually observe.   What shooters in the background say they saw or didn't see is irrelevant.  Penalties are not voting matters. 

Every shooter is a safety officer and each can watch for safety issues and bring blatant problems to TO attention, but only the TO can assign penalties.   

Please correct me if I am mistaken.  

 

Quote

It is expected the Chief Range Officer will be the responsible party for resolving all safety related matters occurring in the loading, unloading, and firing line areas.  However, as all shooters are considered Safety Officers, any shooter who observes a safety infraction not witnessed by the CRO should call the infraction to a CRO’s attention, at which time the matter will be resolved.

SHB p.19

REF also: SHB pp. 24-25 - "ASSESSING PENALTIES AND PROTESTS

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3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

Honest question: does it matter? We’re all safety officers. 

 

I may have misread the actual meaning of your comment but to me, it read as though

when "Another Shooter" interjected their observance meant you earn the penalty automatically.

 

PWB posted the actual action that is to be taken before any penalty can be assessed.

 

That is the only reason I was curious as to WHO actually assessed your penalty.

If it doesn't matter to you, then it surely don't matter to me.

 

..........Widder

 

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8 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

And I wrote this stage to give the shooters some latitude about where they wished to shoot from and to adjust the pace of their shooting.

 

Some will shoot two and move, move and shoot four, etc. 

The only parameter I gave was where their shotgun was initially staged (position one) and that "at least one shot MUST pass over the table" at position two (the move to position)

 

These instructions as opposed to generic move to position B and do X.

 

But it seems sometimes trying to give the shooters more than the generic causes more headache (for everybody) than it's worth.

 

 

I wasn't complaining about the stage instructions.  Rather about the SASS prohibition against shooting on the move.

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10 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Did you stop to shoot or was continuous?  Very fine line with good shooters.  If the shooter has a pause while they shoot, it seems to me they are good.   When it comes to whether or not a shooter was continuous or stopped, I would think the TO is going to gather information to make a decision if one person makes the statement from the gallery or one spotter.  

 

 

That's the $64K question.  I don't have a clue but another shooter said I didn't stop. 

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FYI to for everybody: Another thing I don't know is whether or not the shooter who said I didn't stop was a counter. 

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