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Was Roddenberry a (Gasp!!!)...Socialist????


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I had always thought of Star Trek as being focused on the unique value of the individual; it's the lesson that Kirk teaches Spock, and that seems to underlie many of the plots.

 

But then I caught a repeat of the Next Generation episode where Picard is trying to head off the Borg as they try to stop the First Contact with the Vulcans.

 

Picard lectures one of the characters about how Earth in the time of the Federation is "no longer focused on accumulation of material wealth", but rather on "improvement of the species".

 

Wait...isn't that part of the 2020 Dems platform?????

 

Where, oh where, is my Safe Space?

 

LL

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5 minutes ago, Trailrider #896 said:

When did Gene Roddenberry pass away?  I'm not sure that he really had much to do with Star Trek NG.  :unsure:

 

GR died in 1991, in the middle of the Next Generation run.

 

From Wiki:
 

Roddenberry intended the show to have a progressive political agenda reflective of the emerging counter-culture of the youth movement, though he was not fully forthcoming to the networks about this. He wanted Star Trek to show what humanity might develop into, if it would learn from the lessons of the past, most specifically by ending violence. An extreme example is the alien species, the Vulcans, who had a violent past but learned to control their emotions. Roddenberry also gave Star Trek an anti-war message and depicted the United Federation of Planets as an ideal, optimistic version of the United Nations.[12] His efforts were opposed by the network because of concerns over marketability, e.g., they opposed Roddenberry's insistence that Enterprise have a racially diverse crew.[13]

 

LL

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They always referred to Earth as it was one country, they never mentioned the USA or Germany etc. 

 

ONE WORLD ORDER!!!:blink:

 

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But Checkov did mention Russia, quite often!  E.g.: The Cheshire Cat was a Russian story about a disappearing cat from Minsk - The Garden of Eden was located just outside of Moscow, "a wery nice place" - "Fool me once, shame on you..." was actually a Russian proverb, etc.

 

CS

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19 minutes ago, Count Sandor, SASS #74075 said:

But Checkov did mention Russia, quite often!  E.g.: The Cheshire Cat was a Russian story about a disappearing cat from Minsk - The Garden of Eden was located just outside of Moscow, "a wery nice place" - "Fool me once, shame on you..." was actually a Russian proverb, etc.

 

CS

And Minsk was never in Russia.

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I don't remember Battlestar Galactica ever going there...;)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Count Sandor, SASS #74075 said:

But Checkov did mention Russia, quite often!  E.g.: The Cheshire Cat was a Russian story about a disappearing cat from Minsk - The Garden of Eden was located just outside of Moscow, "a wery nice place" - "Fool me once, shame on you..." was actually a Russian proverb, etc.

 

CS

Yea they talked about countries  and things that happened in the past but I think that Star Fleet was in charge of the planet.

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I think it also depended on what writers that they bought stories from especially in the original series - lots of US history referenced in a lot of the stories - lincoln is featured in one, another has a planet where a nuclear war evidently wiped out civilization and the Yangs were fighting the Kohms - and it ended with Kirk reading  ancient text that is the US constitution. Many historical earth references - one with Apollo and the greek gods, one references Plato, another features a seemingly immortal man who was actually numerous famous historical individuals, another jack the ripper, another the Nazi's, another mobsters, another earth during the great depression, and possibly the most famous reference - the one with modern roman gladiators that references the beginning of what is basically christianity on that planet. 

 

Later series became less and less episodic and incorporated story arcs. There was a pantena of socialism sold as the federation of planets - but it seemed liked the federation was always trying to make trade deals because even with all their tech they needed raw materials and food. So there were monetary trade type agreements. Also individuals seemed to own businesses and take payment for services throughout the shows. There seemed to be little logical thought to it beyond a few references that we don't need or use money anymore - usually when a star trek character needed money to buy or use something. Seemed a lot more aspirational than practical. 

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15 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Better than the Republican mantra of driving the economy into the ground and taxing the masses to pay the rich.:ph34r:

Hmmm...I'm not rich and I got a tax cut!! Thank you President Trump and the Republicans! If you want to talk about driving the economy into the ground. look back to Obama, and it's the DEMS that will raise taxes on EVERYONE!!!!:angry:

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18 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Better than the Republican mantra of driving the economy into the ground and taxing the masses to pay the rich.:ph34r:

I sure hope that was a joke.  Socialism, in all its forms, is the single deadliest activity of the 20th Century.  

Not counting wars, the USSR was  caused the purposeful deaths of up to 61 million of it's own people between 1917 and 1987.

In communist China, Mao and his thugs managed to kill up to 77 million of their people.

Heck, even in tiny Cambodia, with a 1975 population of 7.8 million, managed to kill off 33.5% of the male and 15.7% of the female population in their famous "Killing Fields" and related genocidal activities.

The mere hundreds of thousands killed in other communist utopias pale in comparison but. are equally shocking when viewed individually.  The numbers tend to numb the mind.

Here in the good ol' USA our socialist democrats are only getting warmed up.  The want to disarm the population while ginning up their antifa thugs to attack political opponents in the streets.   

The above quote; a typical toss out a half baked slogan and run squealing "naa na nuh naa naah" blurb is what passes for political thought in socialist/democrat circles these days.  Forum rules prohibit issuing an adequately vehement response.

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I don’t think Roddenberry was a Socialist but I do believe he analyzed the trends in human nature and predicted what he thought things would be like in the future, especially with with The Next Generation. 

 

Think about it. Earth couldn’t be in a United Federation of Planets if the Earth itself wasn’t united. 

 

Personally, the thought of the United Nations running things turns my stomach. They are a toothless inept conglomeration of bureaucracy. 

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21 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

A society without money? Yes.

 

In "Mudd's Women" , Caption Kirk made a clear statement about paying a reasonable compensation to the miners for dilithium crystals.  I've seen a reference to "credits" either in the TV series or the related comic book pledged as collateral, so maybe life has imitated art with our electronic payments.

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2 hours ago, Joke 'um said:

I sure hope that was a joke.  Socialism, in all its forms, is the single deadliest activity of the 20th Century.  

Not counting wars, the USSR was  caused the purposeful deaths of up to 61 million of it's own people between 1917 and 1987.

In communist China, Mao and his thugs managed to kill up to 77 million of their people.

Heck, even in tiny Cambodia, with a 1975 population of 7.8 million, managed to kill off 33.5% of the male and 15.7% of the female population in their famous "Killing Fields" and related genocidal activities.

The mere hundreds of thousands killed in other communist utopias pale in comparison but. are equally shocking when viewed individually.  The numbers tend to numb the mind.

Here in the good ol' USA our socialist democrats are only getting warmed up.  The want to disarm the population while ginning up their antifa thugs to attack political opponents in the streets.   

The above quote; a typical toss out a half baked slogan and run squealing "naa na nuh naa naah" blurb is what passes for political thought in socialist/democrat circles these days.  Forum rules prohibit issuing an adequately vehement response.

 

 Abortion is probably tied with socialism for the most deadly activity, certainly some similarities, but I'm staying out of that conversation today.

 

^_^

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Yes gene was a socialist.  This is not new.  I forget when I first read about it, then I went back and looked at star trek and went "Oh yeah, that makes sense".  To be fair I don't know what label he applied to himself, could have been something similar.  He was also a veteran and a philanderer and an atheist and none of those things makes me enjoy the world he created any more or less. 

 

 

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Jack London was a bit of a socialist as well but that don't mean his Call of the Wild, White Fang and The Sea Wolf  are not worth re-readiing.

 

;)

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Socialism is a great idea that has NO way of being successfully implemented!  The idea cannot be properly and fairly executed!!  It's like saying that all of a sudden, everyone is green!!  YES!  You all may be green, but some of you are, or will be, more green than others!!  Another name for true socialism is UTOPIA!! The ONLY way that Utopia can work is under a benevolent dictatorship, another impossibility!!

 

I believe in an after life!  If the afterlife is real and is as usually described, there is a deity! If we agree to call that deity God, then God is a benevolent dictator!!  Since perfection is NOT possible in this world/universe/whatever you choose to call it, Heaven/Utopia/real socialism IS NOT POSSIBLE!!

 

A line in an old song goes, "Tax the rich! Feed the poor, 'til there are no rich no more!" and there is the rub!!  When you have nobody to take the taxes from and the food runs out because everyone is being fed for free and nobody is working to grow the food, THE FOOD RUNS OUT!!  SURE!!  Now nobody is rich!!  Now we are all poor and we begin taking from the weaker to provide for our survival.  THE REAL DIFFERENCE with socialism is that those who have power are ALREADY taking from the poor and becoming rich themselves!!

 

On August 15, 2019 at 3:09 PM, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

Better than the Republican mantra of driving the economy into the ground and taxing the masses to pay the rich.:ph34r:

 

Your posit doesn't and can't work in the real world!!  Humans are what they are!!  We are humans!!  We strive to improve our lot in life!!  Socialism only allows the bullies to improve their position, NOT the hard workers or the visionaries!!  That is animalism, something we try NOT to exercise as humans!!

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8 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Socialism is a great idea that has NO way of being successfully implemented!  

 

My only minor qualm with your post is that it can and is successfully implemented on a small scale.  I'm not sure what the largest ever successful commune was, but I bet it wasn't more than 20 people (unless you count cults, which I am not inclined to do).  Every family unit is basically a tiny communist society to some extent.  That's why kids tend today fall for it so easily.  When folks start talking about it, it resonates with them because that's basically all they've ever known so it makes sense. 

 

I think the current generation of parents forgot to teach kids the value of a dollar like my parents taught me.  I know I screwed that up with my daughter.  Fortunately, she's already grown out of her communist phase.  All it took was moving out into a place with 4 roommates.  For about 3 months. 

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Howdy,

Once you invent the replicator there will be no shortage of anything.

Except perhaps replicators??

Just take a minute and think about how our whole culture would 

change with the invention of the replicator.

The real question would be if people could be replicated.

A question to kick around by the campfire.

Best

CR

 

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3 hours ago, Chili Ron said:

Howdy,

Once you invent the replicator there will be no shortage of anything.

Except perhaps replicators??

Just take a minute and think about how our whole culture would 

change with the invention of the replicator.

The real question would be if people could be replicated.

A question to kick around by the campfire.

Best

CR

 

 

Somebody once pointed out to me that the holodeck was the last great invention of the star trek universe.  I'm sure Gene didn't intend it that way, but in real life, between the replicator and the holodeck, I'm sure all human progress would grind to a halt. 

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Any one else ever wonder what kind of raw materials would be needed to feed a replicator?

How would those materials need to be processed or prepared?  Where would the stuff be stored or how would it be delivered to the replicator? What would you do with any waste or byproducts?

 

 I’ve always wondered about that! Will they be able to simply bypass the physics involved!!

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1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Any one else ever wonder what kind of raw materials would be needed to feed a replicator?

How would those materials need to be processed or prepared?  Where would the stuff be stored or how would it be delivered to the replicator? What would you do with any waste or byproducts?

 

 I’ve always wondered about that! Will they be able to simply bypass the physics involved!!

 

I know on DS9 they talk of repairing and supplying the replicators in Quark’s bar. 

 

Also, the waste is put back into the replicators to be recycled.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Somebody once pointed out to me that the holodeck was the last great invention of the star trek universe.  I'm sure Gene didn't intend it that way, but in real life, between the replicator and the holodeck, I'm sure all human progress would grind to a halt. 

 

I know my human progress would be having a great time! :D

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2 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

 

I know on DS9 they talk of repairing and supplying the replicators in Quark’s bar. 

 

Also, the waste is put back into the replicators to be recycled.

 

Meaning that there MUST be some sort of raw materials. thus transportation and storage..  Unless there are large freight transporters, (which we've never seen or heard of) and the distance problem is somehow overcome, this will require freight ships.  Then you have the logistics and warehousing required to store and distribute those materials.

 

There is always waste that is not recyclable as well.  

 

SEE??  Utopia can't even be made to work in SIFI!!!  :rolleyes: :o :lol:

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1 hour ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

Meaning that there MUST be some sort of raw materials. thus transportation and storage..  Unless there are large freight transporters, (which we've never seen or heard of) and the distance problem is somehow overcome, this will require freight ships.  Then you have the logistics and warehousing required to store and distribute those materials.

 

There is always waste that is not recyclable as well.  

 

SEE??  Utopia can't even be made to work in SIFI!!!  :rolleyes: :o :lol:

The base materials needed are Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. Since they are only raw materials, they can be stored in the transporter as non-reassembled matter. 

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The key to unlimited wealth and properity is as always energy - virtual unlimited vast cheap energy would make transportation, raw materials, manufacture, and recycling possible and cheap. That would make every individual wealthy in today's terms. In fact the average person today is vastly wealthier than the average person of past centuries as today we have vastly more energy available than in past centuries.

 

The dream of virtually unlimited fusion power is that it would remake the world like the industrial revolution and fossil fuels did a century ago. Add virtually unlimited energy to increased computing power and the world could be remade again.

 

But even with all that, there would still be human nature and a need to rank and define work and profit.  Individual self interest and interest of family would still exist and would stand in the way to a functioning socialist society - which is a good thing as socialist societies always tend towards an accretion of power, control, and authortarianism. The foundation of individual inalienable rights and responsibilities is the true bedrock of freedom and liberty.

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Define wealth.

 

Define prosperity.

 

Get both side to agree on that. On something tangible and real. Non emotional.

 

Not everyone agrees on what those are and therein lies a huge problem.

 

Some see wealth as evil and something that should be vilified and punished. (The left.)

 

Some see wealth as a fruit of your hard labor, a success story, a reward. (And are called evil capitalists by the left...hmmm. )

 

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

Any one else ever wonder what kind of raw materials would be needed to feed a replicator?

How would those materials need to be processed or prepared?  Where would the stuff be stored or how would it be delivered to the replicator? What would you do with any waste or byproducts?

 

 I’ve always wondered about that! Will they be able to simply bypass the physics involved!!

 

That was covered in either one of the series or in a tech book.  All the replicator needs are atoms.  Every bit of waste gets recycled back into the replicator and broken down into it's atoms.  It gets stored in a cargo hold somewhere because the replicators use transporter technology to bring it to you.  I think it was even capable of rearranging the atoms, so all it really needed was protons, electrons, and neutrons.  The limiting factor was that you needed to know a precise and complex 'recipe' to tell it how to assemble them. 

 

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That would make alchemy a true possibility.  Still, matter converted to energy and back to matter will involve losses...

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Isn't the goal of socialism to make everyone equal?

I kinda like NASA's idea...

 

Giant golden asteroid contains enough heavy metals to make everyone on Earth a billionaire – and Nasa is heading there in 2022

 But the only downside is if we're all billionaires, then wouldn't a gallon of milk sell for $427?

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6 minutes ago, Shotgun Willie Nelson said:

Isn't the goal of socialism to make everyone equal?...

 

Does this mean EVERYONE will have an AR15?

 

:D

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Roddenberry was indeed a leftist.  That is not in dispute.   

 

That being said, his personal opinions and stuff like that are much more apparent in the Next Gen than they were in TOS.

 

That being said, the whole "There's no money in the future" was in all truth, a mistake made by the writers that they decided to run with.   Clearly throughout TOS, the concept of money was very real.  Even in the Wrath of Kahn there is a reference to money, in that Carol Marcus said that Project Genesis needs "funding" if it is going to work.   In the early episodes of Next Gen, offhand references to various crewmembers of the Enterprise buying things or gambling or other things with real money are made in passing.

 

Then came Star Trek 4: The Voyage Home and the line spoken by Kirk, "They're still using money.  We need to find some."  In context it is clear that Kirk was referring to physical currency, not the concept of money itself.

 

But, the writer's on Next Gen (and Roddenberry himself) took that line and ran with it to mean that even the concept of money has been done away with.  It was an unworkable fallacy that many a Trekker wishes that they'd give up on. 

 

Heck, after Roddenberry died, the producers started doing things they knew he'd disapprove of cuz they knew that some of his ideas were unworkable.

 

Information brought to you by a guy who's old enough to remember when Trekkie wasn't a derogatory term cuz Trekker hadn't been invented yet.   (And who groaned when Roddenberry suddenly decided to go with Trekkie after years of arguments over which term was correct.) 

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