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The issue:  When opening the action the lifter comes up and contacts the bolt before the bolt is fully retracted into the frame.  That means the rifle's out of time, right? The rifle runs fine but I assume this is still an issue that needs to be fixed to prevent parts from breaking and make it run even better, right?

 

The fix:  File a small portion of metal off the flat surface of the lever that contacts the lifter arm, right?

 

The concern:  I'll have a file in one hand and my rifle in the other.  Yeah, BIG TIME concern. :wacko:

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At least you don't have a Dremel in one hand and the rifle in the other...

 

Yes that's the fix. Take your time and you'll be fine. I've done 2 and I'm no gunsmith.

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I did the work on my first rifle and it did fine. I did exactly what you are going to do. GO SLOW!!! Be prepared to take it apart and put it back together a bunch of times to check it till it is right. 

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14 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

The issue:  When opening the action the lifter comes up and contacts the bolt before the bolt is fully retracted into the frame.  That means the rifle's out of time, right? The rifle runs fine but I assume this is still an issue that needs to be fixed to prevent parts from breaking and make it run even better, right?

By "lifter, I assume you mean the carrier, which hits the bolt.  (I think the part you are talking about filing on is actually the lifter.)  You are right that the rifle is out of time.  I'm curious how it got that way (lifter bent upward).   Usually folks bend the lifter downward by over-pressuring or hammering the lever against a stuck or jambed round.   It seems like bending it upward (making the carrier come up too fast) could only really happen if someone over-pressured the lever trying to extract a round, or dropped the rifle or other mishap.  Before I filed the lifting surfaces, I would try gently bending the lifter arm ever so slightly downward.  Overcorrection in the bend can be easily reversed, where you can't replace material removed through filing.  

But it could also be caused by an  incorrect length of toggles installed.  Have you short-stroked the rifle recently? Are you sure the toggles are the correct ones for the s-s set up?  Often they are stamped with dots to identify them.   A different toggle set might also solve your problem, if fitted by someone qualified.  

My $0.25 worth.   Move patiently  and carefully.  

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14 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

where you can't replace material removed through filing.

 

Good man with a TIG welder can.    "Can't" is a hard word to live with.

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SECRET MESSAGE TO BULL:

Don't put a 'Godzilla' power push on the file.   'Bull with a File' is equivalent to a small man with

a chainsaw...... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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15 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

By "lifter, I assume you mean the carrier, which hits the bolt.  (I think the part you are talking about filing on is actually the lifter.)  You are right that the rifle is out of time.  I'm curious how it got that way (lifter bent upward).   Usually folks bend the lifter downward by over-pressuring or hammering the lever against a stuck or jambed round.   It seems like bending it upward (making the carrier come up too fast) could only really happen if someone over-pressured the lever trying to extract a round, or dropped the rifle or other mishap.  Before I filed the lifting surfaces, I would try gently bending the lifter arm ever so slightly downward.  Overcorrection in the bend can be easily reversed, where you can't replace material removed through filing.  

But it could also be caused by an  incorrect length of toggles installed.  Have you short-stroked the rifle recently? Are you sure the toggles are the correct ones for the s-s set up?  Often they are stamped with dots to identify them.   A different toggle set might also solve your problem, if fitted by someone qualified.  

My $0.25 worth.   Move patiently  and carefully.  

 

This rifle was short stroked MANY years ago by Jim Bowie.  I have to assume it was timed correctly when he did the original work.  It was identified as being out of time just recently.  I have absolutely no idea if it really was timed correctly in the first place.  If it was I have even less idea when it went out of time.

 

Interesting thought about bending the lifter arm.  Hmmmmmmmmm.

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2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

SECRET MESSAGE TO BULL:

Don't put a 'Godzilla' power push on the file.   'Bull with a File' is equivalent to a small man with

a chainsaw...... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

Years and years ago my father forbid me from ever using his hacksaw again after I broke the third blade. :(

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18 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

This rifle was short stroked MANY years ago by Jim Bowie.  I have to assume it was timed correctly when he did the original work.  It was identified as being out of time just recently.  I have absolutely no idea if it really was timed correctly in the first place.

If Jim Bowie did the work there's no need to assume - it was done correctly period.

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Posted (edited)

I've done it a few times. I've also welded the surface back up. Both our 73s got out of time after the first few months and they were definitely in time before. I think that is pretty common. 

 

What worked best for me is scratching a line with calipers around the whole thing just down a bit from where I was grinding. I made the line further down than I was going to take off. I used that line as a guide to keep me straight and also I could keep track of how much I was taking off. Also definitely put the lifter arm in a vise. 

Edited by Chicken George*
Somehow I missed that he said lever. Definitely grind the lifter arm and not the lever. They are a lot cheaper. Last one I bought from Jim Bowie was only $35. But maybe he gave me a good deal... Great guy!!

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

The fix:  File a small portion of metal off the flat surface of the lever that contacts the lifter arm, right?

 

 

My understanding is that you want to file on the bottom of the lifter arm not the lever

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43 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Good man with a TIG welder can.    "Can't" is a hard word to live with.

Yeah, just about anything can be done these days.  My obvious point was to do the easily reversible things first, rather than breaking out the files, which often ends in parts being ordered.  

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3 minutes ago, Wyatt said:

My understanding is that you want to file on the bottom of the lifter arm not the lever

  Filing on the lever articulating cam surfaces seems to me a sure fire way to end up ordering an expensive replacement part.  It is much easier/safer to put the lifter in a vise, bend it down a measured half millimeter (no heat needed) reassemble and test - - bend again and retest--bend again and retest, as needed.  Be patient.  It needs to be a slow and precise process.   Timing of any gun is like that.  You can't rush it or get lazy.  

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27 minutes ago, Hells Comin said:

If Jim Bowie did the work there's no need to assume - it was done correctly period.

Agree.  Very meticulous and knowledgeable gunsmith.   We missed him at Western Regional this year.   I understand he retired.   

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13 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

  Filing on the lever articulating cam surfaces seems to me a sure fire way to end up ordering an expensive replacement part.  It is much easier/safer to put the lifter in a vise, bend it down a measured half millimeter (no heat needed) reassemble and test - - bend again and retest--bend again and retest, as needed.  Be patient.  It needs to be a slow and precise process.   Timing of any gun is like that.  You can't rush it or get lazy.  

 

Good luck 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

The fix:  File a small portion of metal off the flat surface of the lever that contacts the lifter arm, right?

 

File the lifter arm not the lever and check the timing with a cartridge not the carrier. make sure the cartridge does not hit the bolt tab on the face as it comes up.

Edited by Flash
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SB-What difference(if any)do you see, when the weight of a cartridge is on the carrier?

OLG

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Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What difference(if any)do you see, when the weight of a cartridge is on the carrier?

 

Not much for weight of cartridge.  But until you run a dummy cartridge, you don't see all the possible damage you can do to the cartridge support tab on the bolt face.

 

A lot of timing difference between just cycling gun easy, and cycling it as fast as a Bull can go.  You are not close to done retiming the gun until the smith AND the shooter have had a chance to run at speed with the gun, for maybe a hundred rounds.

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708
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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

SB-What difference(if any)do you see, when the weight of a cartridge is on the carrier?

OLG

 

I've only cycled it empty and slow. 

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17 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I've only cycled it empty and slow. 

 

Well-Lets see what a 'Bull' can do, with a tube filled with dummy rnds......^_^

OLG

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I would NOT file on the lever.....I would file on the lifter arm. 

 

HOWEVER....if this is a gun that has been used for a long time I might look to see if the lifter arm is bent from years of hitting the top of the frame. If the gun was properly timed when you first got it then something else would have to be affecting the timing......The lifter arm didn't just add metal to itself right.

 

Stan

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5 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Good man with a TIG welder can.    "Can't" is a hard word to live with.

The problem with welding in this kind of application is that adding material in unmeasured quantities eliminates your existing known indexing points and takes you back to square one in fitting the part. 

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^_^   Maybe you haven't seen Lassiter TIG a part.....  an ar-tist' !

 

GJ

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7 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

At least you don't have a Dremel in one hand and the rifle in the other...

 

Hmmm....Shooting Bull and a Dremel....now there's a scary thought.....:blink:

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Be sure to look at the Cowboy and Indian's store instructions as well ... (Bowie) ...

The valuable lesson I learned from those instructions was to make sure the lever is straight (not bent) before removing any material from the lifter arm. Bending back straight first saves a lot of filing.  

 http://cowboysandindianstore.com/pdf/C-I short stroke instructions 4-30-14.pdf 

 

 

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PLUS ONE too Santa Fe River Stan.

 

ALWAYS attack the cheapest part FIRST.  If the rifle was previously correctly timed ..... what was changed??  The Breach Block (Bolt) MUST fully retract into the frame before the Carrier Block makes contact.  When lifting the cartridge, the bolt MUST fully retract into the frame BEFORE the cartridge rim makes contact with the cartridge guide tab on the bolt.

 

I would ask, what has been changed??  New Carrier Block (Aluminum ??).  If the carrier is now coming up too soon, something has been changed.  Normally following an OOBD or other incident, the carrier begins to rise late.  DO NOT attack the lever (unless you have a new one handy). 

 

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Based on all the input here I think maybe some more expert diagnostics need to take place before I start removing metal from ANYTHING. 

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A very wise choice padawan.  Diagnosis better, acquire you must.

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

^_^   Maybe you haven't seen Lassiter TIG a part.....  an ar-tist' !

 

GJ

I'm sure that is so, but the weld then still has to be redressed, without any known starting point.  No weld comes out measured.  So you started out knowing a thou had to be removed, and you accidentally filed off two.  Then rewelded back enough to cure your mistake (an unknown but excess amount of replacement, to enable the redressing).  So now you're back at square one on fitting.   

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9 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Good man with a TIG welder can.    "Can't" is a hard word to live with.

Looking at a friends rifle..  Noticed the smith had drilled into the lifter and bottomed a screw into the hole then filed it to fit.  Came from big name shop, not garage blacksmith.      GW

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1 minute ago, G W Wade said:

Looking at a friends rifle..  Noticed the smith had drilled into the lifter and bottomed a screw into the hole then filed it to fit.  Came from big name shop, not garage blacksmith.      GW

I’ve seen that before also. Don’t know why it wouldn’t work

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Exactly where is the lifter drilled.  The reason I ask -if it can be seen while the action is closed it's probably not legal.

33 minutes ago, Medicine Creek Johnny said:

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Harlan Wolff did my rifle and it doesn’t look like he did any filing on the lifter. I’ve seen a couple of others he’s done and they all look like that.

 

That’s a C&I 5th gen.

 

 

 

 

 

94611B0B-7B2E-47AB-A5C2-7A513D60F852.jpeg

Edited by Captain Bill Burt

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