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Long Hunter SASS #20389L

My take on EOT and SASS

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2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

:o

WOW-That is extremely rude and insulting:excl:

Is that all you can contribute to this discussion?:rolleyes:

OLG

Inside joke that you aren’t part of. 

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4 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

:o

WOW-That is extremely rude and insulting:excl:

Is that all you can contribute to this discussion?:rolleyes:

OLG

He is a good friend. Just playing. 

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8 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

He is a good friend. Just playing. 

 

You need to pay him more.........:lol:

OLG

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Very similar to the Colts leaving Baltimore, or so I’m told. Ask any of the old timers up at The Cowboys in Norco and you’ll get an earful. Many won’t make the journey to EOT because of the move and the way it was carried out. It came about before my time and I kinda like going to New Mexico for EOT, going to EOT at Norco would be closer but not nearly as nice, IMHO, of course, fighting freeway traffic ain’t my kind of having fun.

Before your time !?!?? You're as old as dirt !? (Sarcasm added by the author for humor)

maybe I should start a new thread, and call it "midnight wagon train to New Mexico " LOL

sounds like we will be picking at an old scab.

Edited by T-Square

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8 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Before your time !?!?? You're as old as dirt !? (Sarcasm added by the author for humor)

maybe I should start a new thread, and call it "midnight wagon train to New Mexico " LOL

sounds like we will be picking at an old scab.

Yul, pre-dates dirt........:lol:

OLG

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Posted (edited)
On 6/30/2019 at 6:49 AM, Captain Bill Burt said:

Making matches more complex will NOT narrow the gap between an average shooter and a top shooter, quite the opposite.  

I think you are speaking in far too broad of generalities, which is probably why we are having trouble agreeing here.  Don't you think that the "gap" all depends on the individual shooters being compared, and their differential skill sets?

 

Using your good shooter example, he/she will have to slow down at least a smidgeon and aim more carefully, to keep from missing golf ball size targets with pistols at 12 yards (obviously an extreme illustration, to make a point).  But a naturally very slow shooter doesn't necessarily need to slow down more.  They already are going slow to aim carefully.  So if the fast shooter's stage completion time increases, but the naturally slow guys does not change, then by logic alone, the gap between them will be narrowed.  That's all I am trying to say.  It all depends entirely  on the individual shooters being compared.  

Now, if you refuse to accept that the fast shooter would need to slow down to shoot the example above, then we will have a harder time reaching common understanding.   

 

Edited by Dusty Devil Dale

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10 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Making matches more complex will NOT narrow the gap between an average shooter and a top shooter, quite the opposite.  

I think you are speaking in far to broad of generalities, which is probably why we are having trouble agreeing here.  Don't you think that the "gap" all depends on the individual shooters being compared, and their differential skill sets?

 

Using your good shooter example, he/she will have to slow down at least a smidgeon and aim more carefully, to keep from missing golf ball size targets with pistols at 12 yards (obviously an extreme illustration, to make a point).  But a naturally very slow shooter doesn't necessarily need to slow down more.  They already are going slow to aim carefully.  So if the fast shooter's stage completion time increases, but the naturally slow guys does not change, then by logic alone, the gap between them will be narrowed.  That's all I am trying to say.  It all depends entirely  on the individual shooters being compared.  

Now, if you refuse to accept that the fast shooter would need to slow down to shoot the example above, then we will have a harder time reaching common understanding.   

8 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

 

I want it to be fun and allow those who want to shoot clean a reasonable chance to do it.  I also want enough of a mix so those who go to a larger match won't be too surprised at longer distances and smaller targets.

I think I would enjoy shooting your match any time.  I think you nailed what this should all be about.  

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Posted (edited)

You're looking at this from a hypothetical point of view, not a practical one.

Try it, have more complicated stages with smaller farther targets and see what happens, you may be surprised.

 

And you will hear grumbling. Ask me how I know.

Edited by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631

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Found this about the the midnight wagon train to New Mexico.

https://www.shootersforum.com/general-discussion/12046-sass-end-trail-moving-nm.html

It is a sanitized post announcing the secret move to New Mexico but keeping HQ in California.

i guess keeping HQ didn't work out.

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15 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Found this about the the midnight wagon train to New Mexico.

https://www.shootersforum.com/general-discussion/12046-sass-end-trail-moving-nm.html

It is a sanitized post announcing the secret move to New Mexico but keeping HQ in California.

i guess keeping HQ didn't work out.

Well the author of said comments didn’t last long once the move was made. Check your PM’s. 

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1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

The 3 I have in our M/94's, the nose is flush to the breechface when the hammer is down.

These 3 FP I have been run'n for about 5 years now(bought the 3 on the same order), and came from Cowboys and Indians store.

Maybe there was a change in FP specs?......:huh:

http://cowboysandindianstore.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=19

OLG

 

Or they lengthened the bolt..... ;)

 

..........Widder

 

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43 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Before your time !?!?? You're as old as dirt !? (Sarcasm added by the author for humor)

maybe I should start a new thread, and call it "midnight wagon train to New Mexico " LOL

sounds like we will be picking at an old scab.

Picking at an old scab for sure but in my opinion EOT would not exist if they hadn’t made the move. Not everyone liked the move and the way it was carried out but with the way things are now up at Norco and the state in general drawing more than a few hundred shooters, especially those from outside the state would have been problematic to say the least. The Cowboys up at Norco have very little influence that’s why they are down to 9 matches a year. I would have liked to be a fly on the wall had they asked for 12 bays for an entire week to stage an EOT. I’m by no means an old timer up there but midnight wagon train to New Mexico ain’t that far off the mark. Things change and things have definitely changed out here and things evolve and SASS has definitely evolved and trying to hold the evolution back is like the little Dutch boy trying to stop the dike from breaking by sticking his fingers in the holes. If we think going backwards is going to move the sport forward I believe we are sadly mistaken.

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3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

can an owner of a Non-modified (Factory spec'd) firearm sue the manufacturer

Easy answer:  anybody can be sued by anybody for anything.

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I'm thinking this topic has strayed from it's original subject matter. Knowing Longhunter for many years I respect his opinion and insight. The conversation regarding the "dumbing down" of SASS matches has been going on for some time and we have become the laughing stock of the shooting world and are no longer a viable shooting sport, merely a game that allows us to shoot guns as quickly as possible. Target sizes and distances are no where near the suggestions in the rule book. Sometime after 2008 targets became very large and got really close. We didn't even try big targets at the same distances, seems like they just appeared in your face and there was no common ground. Many of those complaining about Longhunter's post never shot the distances we used to shoot, yet they are experts. Try putting on a few shoots yourselves and listen to the majority if the shooters. 

 

It's obvious the current way of doing things is not drawing new shooters, sponsors are gone, and most clubs are only a couple members from shutting down.

Frivolous banter will not fix our problem, only serious conversation. Most of us on the Wire love SASS and want it to succeed, it's time for a rebranding. I'm thinking we need a "target factor" just like the "power factor" in other shooting entities. We need some mandates from the WB that dictate target sizes, shapes, and distances. Changes are hard and sometimes painful. Steel Challenge, NRA Action Pistol, etc, all have specifics and we just do what we like. 

 

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1 minute ago, Assassin said:

We need some mandates from the WB that dictate target sizes, shapes, and distances

Too many rules already, though I generally agree with Assassin's post.  I have previously drawn fire for suggesting this game was more fun when the shooter's handbook fit in your shirt pocket.

 

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1 minute ago, MizPete said:

Too many rules already, though I generally agree with Assassin's post.  I have previously drawn fire for suggesting this game was more fun when the shooter's handbook fit in your shirt pocket.

 

The suggested target distances and sizes are already in the rule book, not really adding any rules, just making them mandates rather than suggestions. 

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I stand by my statement.  I like common sense and The Cowboy Way.

 

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35 minutes ago, Assassin said:

I'm thinking this topic has strayed from it's original subject matter. Knowing Longhunter for many years I respect his opinion and insight. The conversation regarding the "dumbing down" of SASS matches has been going on for some time and we have become the laughing stock of the shooting world and are no longer a viable shooting sport, merely a game that allows us to shoot guns as quickly as possible. Target sizes and distances are no where near the suggestions in the rule book. Sometime after 2008 targets became very large and got really close. We didn't even try big targets at the same distances, seems like they just appeared in your face and there was no common ground. Many of those complaining about Longhunter's post never shot the distances we used to shoot, yet they are experts. Try putting on a few shoots yourselves and listen to the majority if the shooters. 

 

It's obvious the current way of doing things is not drawing new shooters, sponsors are gone, and most clubs are only a couple members from shutting down.

Frivolous banter will not fix our problem, only serious conversation. Most of us on the Wire love SASS and want it to succeed, it's time for a rebranding. I'm thinking we need a "target factor" just like the "power factor" in other shooting entities. We need some mandates from the WB that dictate target sizes, shapes, and distances. Changes are hard and sometimes painful. Steel Challenge, NRA Action Pistol, etc, all have specifics and we just do what we like. 

 

So do you really think moving targets back out are going to increase the interest in CAS? Speaking for myself I’ll probably find something else to do. 

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4 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

So do you really think moving targets back out are going to increase the interest in CAS? Speaking for myself I’ll probably find something else to do. 

I can't speak for Assassin...he does well on his own...but I think we're talking about two separate concepts here.

 

I don't think folks that are advocating "moving targets back" are suggesting going back to the stage designs (specifically target size/distance), of the 90's. I think it's more of a pendulum thing...moving them away from Bordertown size and distance.

 

Both Hell on Wheels and EOT (this year), had the targets at distances that would have been close in the 90's (though most of experience regarding those stage designs come from sitting in China Camp's living room watching old videos and hearing the stories). Perhaps match designs should focus on size/distance variety rather than a monolithic design...and avoid extremes on the small/far targets.

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I can't speak for Assassin...he does well on his own...but I think we're talking about two separate concepts here.

 

I don't think folks that are advocating "moving targets back" are suggesting going back to the stage designs (specifically target size/distance), of the 90's. I think it's more of a pendulum thing...moving them away from Bordertown size and distance.

 

Both Hell on Wheels and EOT (this year), had the targets at distances that would have been close in the 90's (though most of experience regarding those stage designs come from sitting in China Camp's living room watching old videos and hearing the stories). Perhaps match designs should focus on size/distance variety rather than a monolithic design...and avoid extremes on the small/far targets.

 

Phantom

I agree on the size/distance variety but I’ve frequented a few clubs out here that think  far and small make for a fun match and they don’t in my opinion. Coming up with some universal distance and size concept would be my choice but there are still those in charge that would say they’re still to big and to close. Would SASS be willing to put themselves in that position of setting those kind of hard standards?

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24 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I can't speak for Assassin...he does well on his own...but I think we're talking about two separate concepts here.

 

I don't think folks that are advocating "moving targets back" are suggesting going back to the stage designs (specifically target size/distance), of the 90's. I think it's more of a pendulum thing...moving them away from Bordertown size and distance.

 

Both Hell on Wheels and EOT (this year), had the targets at distances that would have been close in the 90's (though most of experience regarding those stage designs come from sitting in China Camp's living room watching old videos and hearing the stories). Perhaps match designs should focus on size/distance variety rather than a monolithic design...and avoid extremes on the small/far targets.

 

Phantom

Well put Phantom!

 

My idea of moving the targets out would be getting closer to the norms of the mid 2000's when SASS was growing at its fastest rate. I think a lot can be said for the type and size of targets being used. Using pistol targets as an example, the recommended distance is 7-10 yards. If you have 16" squares or cowboy silhouette targets, have them closer to the minimum distance. Larger, 20-24" targets, move closer to 10 yards. 

 

Variation was always one of my favorite things to encounter in a match. Having varying distances for rifle targets from near to far was always fun to play with. I remember a stage at horse ridge one year where the pistol targets were at that maximum distance area and required a bit more time, but the three pistol targets also doubled for three out of the five rifle targets and it was a blast! 

 

For those that want to add in a small challenging target, go for the optional bonus that doesn't count as a miss. The shooters that enjoy that type of shooting can go for it without blowing their clean match if they miss. The folks that just want to pedal down and go fast can skip right over it. Acting like it can only be one way or another is too much like politics and I'm pretty sure we are here to have fun.

 

From my observation, I feel that most cowboy matches are fairly easy to shoot clean if you are willing to sacrifice enough speed to maintain 100% accuracy.

 

FWIW Everytime I have shot winter range I have felt the target size and distance was spot on.

 

Shifty

 

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9 hours ago, Cypress Sun said:

Seriously?

 

If you would prefer "The Real West",  just pretend like you're shooting most of the targets in the back or from a blind side position. 

 

You could also ride a horse or take a horse drawn wagon to the match. I guess that little blue thing that beeps must be a huge distraction also.

 

Sorry bud, this one struck a chord with me.

 

And this is why I don't post on this forum.  Thanks for the sarcasm. 

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7 hours ago, Assassin said:

We need some mandates from the WB that dictate target sizes, shapes, and distances.

If this happens, you will definitely shut some clubs down. I can't see clubs spending the $$ on new targets to comply.

They will probably either discontinue SASS affiliation and shoot how they want with what they have or shut down altogether.

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3 hours ago, Tequila Chase said:

 

And this is why I don't post on this forum.  Thanks for the sarcasm. 

Ignore the sarcasm and keep posting, Tequila Chase.  I, for one, enjoy hearing what you have to say.  You're a relative newbie like myself, so I like reading your point of view.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

 

I will offer another point of view on categories, however.  I'm fast approaching 70.  I'm a relative newbie, but I closely associate with some very good CAS shooters who have BEEN regulars in the winners circle over many years.  They are still avidly competitive, but age creeps up on all of us.  We simply cannot physically move as fast as we once could, but we still like to play the game competitively.  

If there is only a single category or two or three, my older friends and I have no physical way to compete against young fellows like Matt Black or Bobcat Tyler, who still are in the part of their life where they have the capability, coordination and eyesight to shoot at light speed.  Absent some kind of contest geared for those of us who are half-blind with arthritis, hip replacements, and multiple other age related failings, there would be little point in spending the high cost of travel to go and shoot at EOT, Winter Range, or elsewhere. 

 

 

Yeah, they certainly were winners for many years.

 

 

Edited by MaxxPT

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1 hour ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

Ignore the sarcasm and keep posting, Tequila Chase.  I, for one, enjoy hearing what you have to say.  You're a relative newbie like myself, so I like reading your point of view.

 

Thanks Marshal.

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There is a thing I refer to as "Optimum Performance" levels.

 

WE ALL basically have an Optimum Performance (OP) level where each of us can

run a Cowboy stage within our given 'speed' and still maintain a high level of hits on the targets.

 

A Traditional shooter can normally maintain their OP levels from about 5 to 8 yards.

A Duelist shooter can normally maintain their OP levels from about 5 to 6 1/2 yards.

A Gunfighter can normally maintain their OP levels from 5 to 6 yards.

 

When targets that are 16 x 16 and larger start getting moved away from the firing line

to 7 yards and more,  we have somewhat hindered the Duelist and GF competition.  

The Duelist and GF has to throttle back a little in order to maintain a high level of hits.

No so with your Traditional style shooter.   Two hands on the pistol and one eye focused

on the front site allows the Trad style shooter to get on target quicker and still maintain

their high level of hits.

Remember, I'm not just talking about speed..... but rather maintaining a high level of hits at

an individuals speed ability..... their OP.

 

Now, if you want your club(s) to cater to Traditional style shooters, then go ahead and move

them targets back to 7 - 10 yards and have a blast.

But if you want EVERY style of shooters to have a chance to 'run their game', then set up those

targets within 7 yards....... maybe more like 5 1/2 to 6 yards.

 

You'll discover the competition gets tighter.   

 

I'm not surprised that Matt Black's total time at EOT was within the same time range

as EOT's champ time the past couple years.   Target distances and placement mean very little

to these great shooters.

Nor am I surprised at the Overall finish of Missouri Lefty as a GF.   But remember, Lefty is gifted

with rifle and SG also, which makes him a competitor, regardless.

 

I ain't telling any of you a big secret because I think you all know it.

When you move those targets back to 7 yards and further (for pistols), you are

basically putting a handicap on the Duelist and GF.   And in some ways, you are

penalizing other shooters who just can't shoot well.

 

Our Champions are gonna be Champs regardless.   But the rest of us would atleast

like to be able to shoot at our given OP without a stage design/target distance becoming

an UNNECESSARY hinderance.

 

One more thing:   Targets that are too close can also become a problem for ALL styles of shooting.

They may be fun to look at when they are close but angles and such on a normal stage can

become problematic with maintaining a high level of hits.

 

SASS should not only look at the number of Clean Shooters at EOT, but also the total number

of misses.   But, this can also be a misleading figure because of the number of NEW shooters.

Remove the number of NEW shooters at this years EOT and then see how those numbers

look.  

 

Hope all Y'all have a good day..... and thanks for tolerating my lengthy post.

 

..........Widder

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Tequila Chase said:

 

And this is why I don't post on this forum.  Thanks for the sarcasm. 

 

Tequila,

There are times WE ALL become a target on this Wire.   When ya start reading and posting

your .02,  ya just gotta remember that we are all sitting at the lunch table trying to

carry on a good discussion while eating a burger and washing it down with your favorite

beverage.

If somebody, like that CoonAss Krazy Kajun, gets on the Wire and says.... "Widder, your crazy",

it would be no different than me and Krazy sitting at the lunch table and he says I'm crazy.

 

Hang with us.  Whether folks agree or not with your comments, you are entitled to post them

as much as anyone.

 

Have a great day.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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Posted (edited)

A few observations from old SASS shooter that recently returned to the game:

  1. Lots of categories is good! Gives folks many options to purse their interests and abilities. Back in the day everyone shot basically the same equipment at the exact same scenarios (distances). It seems today some successful CAS clubs also run additional "out law" type categories or rules too give more options and challenges to their members. Increases the fun factor!
  2. Categories expands the types of firearms that we can play with too! (i.e. short range speed, longer range accuracy stage option, Cody-Dixon, Wild-bunch, long range, single shot rifles, bolts, 1911/other cool pistols). Now some really nice vintage lever, single, and bolt rifles come out for the longer targets options.
  3. Changing up stages some and adding bit more distance is good too! The top shooters are still going to win and probably by a bigger margin, but it will be more fun for everyone to add some variety to the stages? Pushing targets back a few yards won't change things all that much other, adding optional targets sets even better. More "shoot em as you see em" stages would be nice, especially if the targets were moved around.
  4. A good safety plus moving shotgun targets back some would be to reduce the splatter or pellets coming back at the shooters and pedestrians. Many use some type of factory bird/target shell (~1200fps plus or minus, ~3dram). I get hit by shotgun pellets fairly routinely it seems, at least more so than rifle/pistol.
Edited by Slimy

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Sounds like there might be two potential factions developing in CAS. One being the fun up close shoot afap stages. Then, the more competitive cowboy shooters wanting something a little more serious, kind of like Wild Bunch, utilizing stricter rules, more skill and fewer categories. I understand both concepts.

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33 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Sounds like there might be two potential factions developing in CAS. One being the fun up close shoot afap stages. Then, the more competitive cowboy shooters wanting something a little more serious, kind of like Wild Bunch, utilizing stricter rules, more skill and fewer categories. I understand both concepts.

I think you’re correct about the two factions, but IMHO, they’ve been here quite awhile. Is there a middle ground? I believe they’ve found it up at Cajon and possibly Escondido, time will tell there. About four years ago I had the opportunity to shoot a match in Cheyenne and I believe Wildhorse John was the MD and I thoroughly enjoyed that match until the prairie fire came knocking and the fire department shut us down.

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10 hours ago, Tequila Chase said:

 

And this is why I don't post on this forum.  Thanks for the sarcasm. 

Anyone that has a picture of Sam Elliot as an avatar should post as often as possible. 

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36 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

I think you’re correct about the two factions, but IMHO, they’ve been here quite awhile. Is there a middle ground? I believe they’ve found it up at Cajon and possibly Escondido, time will tell there. About four years ago I had the opportunity to shoot a match in Cheyenne and I believe Wildhorse John was the MD and I thoroughly enjoyed that match until the prairie fire came knocking and the fire department shut us down.

Why, thank you Sir! I think one of the reasons Cajon is doing well is that we do try to balance the stages. Not Bordertown close, but not Pala far. Not too complicated, but you do have to pay attention to which target to hit. Some movement, but no 100 yard dashes either. Oh, and we like and appreciate our shooters too!:D

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23 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Back to my point, people and lawyers will sue for whatever. Doesn't matter if 30,000 shooters, it's a number,  are shooting 73's without an incident, then there is one. Lawyers will get in line. So an old women buys a coffee at McDonalds, can we all agree that coffee is hot, she spills it on her, she sues and..........she gets a payout. Never should have happened.

Modern 66's and 73's will fire out of battery, so removing the safety is a good thing! Besides they now can work the safety spring so the safety still works but eliminates the spring resistance. Why not have one then?

In reality the shooter asked to have the mod performed and or did it themselves. Why is anyone but the shooter responsible? Because there are lawyers and people wanting payouts for their own decisions.

Ike

 

18 hours ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

That's not the whole of it: 

So McD's insurance company actually wins the lawsuit but pays out $80,000 in legal fees.  The old woman, as the loser, doesn't have any assets from which McD can  recover their legal fees.  

OR--- McD's insurance company simply settles the suit.  Either way the company raises McD's premiums world-wide to redeem costs.  

Bottom line:  Get over any mental Perry Mason theatrics.  WIN OR LOSE, you aren't going to come out at present-day $ parity if you get sued.  So don't get caught thinking your principles or arguments are enough to win and survive it financially.   Due diligence beforehand is going to be your best shot to keep what you have.  You have to AVOID THE ACCIDENT in the first place, wherever possible.  

I wasn't going to say anything about this so as to not drift off topic, but since it was brought up twice I'll just throw it in. So many people have no idea what actually happened with the "hot coffee". There is a documentary by the same name that is worth watching so that you can get the true story, but the gist is that it wasn't just that the coffee was hot, but rather very hot and a very flimsy cup. The woman didn't get a little burn. She had 3rd degree burns and literally melted genitalia. She spent over 2 years getting skin graft surgeries, but she made millions right? Wrong. The jury awarded her almost $3 million based on her injuries, but the judged dropped it down to around $600,000. I don't know about any of you, but I consider my "junk" to be worth a lot more than that.

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