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LostVaquero

Cimmarron 1862 in 380acp legal as main revolver

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Not sure a pocket navy with 6 in barrel is really a pocket pistol.  For SASS it does not meet the rules as one with 6 in barrel but would it qualify as a main match.  Technically the rules say a pocket pistol cannot be converted to main match revolver but is that for a revolver that meet the definition or sort of a blanket rule.

 

So is the 1862 6" 380 acp legal main revolver?

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It's only 5 shot and I'm not sure if you can see the case rims to verify it's loaded safely.  

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Posted (edited)

Being of the same frame size as the .31 caliber Colt pocket pistols I would think that it would require some funny interpretations to get there.  Changing barl lengths back and forth would allow any PP to go back and forth between MM wouldn't it? 

 

PS: If there is a way to index the hammer between chambers, this fixes the five shot problem.  

Edited by Slowhand Bob, 24229

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RULES SAY:

Revolver Requirements

Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, ~

 

380 ACP was introduced  in 1908 . and not a common revolver cartridge. Of course the 9mm was introduced in 1902 and it is SASS legal, as is the 45 ACP (introduced in 1905)

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Hoss said:

RULES SAY:

Revolver Requirements

Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, ~

 

380 ACP was introduced  in 1908 . and not a common revolver cartridge. Of course the 9mm was introduced in 1902 and it is SASS legal, as is the 45 ACP (introduced in 1905)

 

 

 

As you state, there's a pile of post 1899 calibers that are allowed.  Others include 357 Magnum, 44 Special, 44 Magnum, 32 H&R Mag, and the latest bee's knees 45 Cowboy Special.  If a revolver is of an older design but chambered in a modern cartridge and can meet all other requirements (power factor).  This smaller pistol in 380 may be the ideal pistol for shooters of smaller stature/youth. 

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30 minutes ago, The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213 said:

 

  This smaller pistol in 380 may be the ideal pistol for shooters of smaller stature/youth. 

 

I've though that too, but it will have the retractable firing pin and will probably not have notches between the cylinders.  Not that you couldn't convert it to a fixed firing pin and machine some holes.

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13 hours ago, LostVaquero said:

So is the 1862 6" 380 acp legal main revolver?

1

Let's see... 

It is a reproduction of a single action manufactured prior to 1899. 

It is a centerfire caliber larger than 32. 

Both five and six shot cylinders are allowed according to the rule book. 

 

The only sticking point I can see is the line about, "Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers."  The 380 is hardly a commonly available revolver caliber by any stretch of the imagination.   Personally, though I would see this classy little conversion revolver more in the spirit of the game than a lot of the acceptable guns and modifications out there.

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Posted (edited)

The 1862, even though a 5-shot revolver would meet the criteria for a main-match revolver.  It was chambered for .36 ball.  It is not the caliber that has to meet the pre-1899 requirement, its the gun.  But, since the .380 in the same size as a .36 ball, it should meet any caliber requirements nicely. 

The 1862 does not meet the requirements of a pocket pistol in that its barrel was not 4" or less.

 

The only caveat might be that the 5-shot 1862 has a fairly delicate mechanism, and most I've seen in use haven't stood up very long to the kind of use we put them through.  However, an alternative may be the Pietta version of the 1862, which is a 6-shot and basically an 1851 with a fluted cylinder and a round barrel.  

 

If you can meet power-factor and have one of the conversion makers like Gary Barnes fit .380 cylinders, it might make an interesting piece.

Edited by McCandless

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12 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

It's only 5 shot and I'm not sure if you can see the case rims to verify it's loaded safely.  

 

SHB pg 13

Quote

Five-shooter revolvers may load five rounds, but the hammer must rest on a
dummy chamber or safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on
a live round/cap.

 

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Before spending your money you probably should ask PWB for an absolute interpretation.  There was some argument years ago concerning the '62 being built on a pocket pistol frame and I truly can not remember the final interpretation BUT it had nothing to do with the number of chambers or any caliber above 32 it was about the frame size and somewhat concerning the .31 caliber ball size (yes the argument got to include a lot of territory).  

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Even if it's not SASS legal who cares it's a cool gun! I want one!!

 

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I asked PWB about this gun, if the barrel length was 3 1/2 inches as originally advertised, he said it would be legal for pocket pistol, I'm planning on getting one and having the barrel cut down....

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Posted (edited)

AS I recall the discussion about the 1862, vs other 31 caliber percussion revolvers, it's acceptablity aas a main match gun hinged on it's rebated frame to accept a .36 caliber cylinder.  If the .380ACP version has a rebated frame, it might be an "yes" for a main match revolver.  If not, you might need to do some pretty fancy jaw-bonin' to distinguish this from the pocket-pistol framed .31s.

 

Regardless, submit your query as for any other equipment variance.

Edited by Griff

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All I'll say about it being in .380 is why the heck didn't they make it in .38 Short Colt or .38 S&W?   The intended market is clearly Cowboy shooters, and we pretty much all reload.

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26 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

All I'll say about it being in .380 is why the heck didn't they make it in .38 Short Colt or .38 S&W?   The intended market is clearly Cowboy shooters, and we pretty much all reload.

 

A 6 shot 32 S&W. 

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44 minutes ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

... The intended market is clearly Cowboy shooters...

 

I think you would be wrong about that.  

 

As for main match versus pocket pistol, I seem to recall something about the Pietta '62 being on a fullsize frame, but the Uberti is a pocket pistol size frame.   Not positive about that.  But the primary question will be whether or not it has a safety notch for letting the hammer down between cylinders.  If it does not, then it won't be useful for either.  I asked one of the Cimarron guys last month whether it had the safety notch and he wasn't sure.  There was an ad from Cimarron over a year ago that mentioned it having a retractable firing pin.  If so, that would allow carrying 5 but would be a no-go for CAS.

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12 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

I think you would be wrong about that.  

 

As for main match versus pocket pistol, I seem to recall something about the Pietta '62 being on a fullsize frame, but the Uberti is a pocket pistol size frame.   Not positive about that.  But the primary question will be whether or not it has a safety notch for letting the hammer down between cylinders.  If it does not, then it won't be useful for either.  I asked one of the Cimarron guys last month whether it had the safety notch and he wasn't sure.  There was an ad from Cimarron over a year ago that mentioned it having a retractable firing pin.  If so, that would allow carrying 5 but would be a no-go for CAS.

Yup, the Pietta 1862 really isn't one.  They just took their '51, gave it a fluted cylinder, shortened the round barrel from their '61, stuck it on there and called it "done". 

I may sound dismissive of it, but I have a pair and like 'em.  But, it's not really an 1862.  

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I don't reload, and would have prefered .38 SW because it is honest, and costs about the same but more available with lead moly.  FWIW, .380 ball and HP is more than most 9mm ball/HP.

 

Still I want to do the pocket matches one day, so I am drooling over one with a sawed of barrel to about 2-2.5 inches, with no front sight and maybe a shortened rounded grip....

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On 4/9/2019 at 7:23 AM, Hoss said:

RULES SAY:

Revolver Requirements

Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, ~

 

380 ACP was introduced  in 1908 . and not a common revolver cartridge. Of course the 9mm was introduced in 1902 and it is SASS legal, as is the 45 ACP (introduced in 1905)

 

 

 

On 4/9/2019 at 8:43 AM, July Smith said:

The only sticking point I can see is the line about, "Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers."  The 380 is hardly a commonly available revolver caliber by any stretch of the imagination.   Personally, though I would see this classy little conversion revolver more in the spirit of the game than a lot of the acceptable guns and modifications out there.

"Commonly available" is actually defined in the Glossary of Terms -

Commonly available – obtainable by anyone given ordinary circumstances with ordinary means.

Of course, that begs a definition for "ordinary circumstances" and "ordinary means". :ph34r:

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6 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

 

"Commonly available" is actually defined in the Glossary of Terms -

Commonly available – obtainable by anyone given ordinary circumstances with ordinary means.

Of course, that begs a definition for "ordinary circumstances" and "ordinary means". :ph34r:

 

Anyone can walk into a gunstore and they will probably be able to order the Taurus m380 revolver:

Bud's Guns

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The reality is that this is a fantasy game. The most popular guns and cartridges used in this game didn't exist before 1900.  

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On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 7:43 AM, July Smith said:

Let's see... 

It is a reproduction of a single action manufactured prior to 1899. 

It is a centerfire caliber larger than 32. 

Both five and six shot cylinders are allowed according to the rule book. 

 

The only sticking point I can see is the line about, "Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers."  The 380 is hardly a commonly available revolver caliber by any stretch of the imagination.   Personally, though I would see this classy little conversion revolver more in the spirit of the game than a lot of the acceptable guns and modifications out there.

The founders described allowable ammunition in terms or caliber rather than making specific cartridge designations. This opened the door to just about any ammunition that meets diameter requirements (caliber).

 

Snakebite 

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Posted (edited)

This is the gun the OP was talking about.  It fits all the requirements of a main match revolver.   It is purpose-built .380.  (Bullet dia. .355)  Which means the bore is the same as for a 9mm instead of the usual .375 for .36 ball.  We already allow 9mm as main-match ammo, the .380 is basically a 9mm "short".

It is the same frame size as a "Model P Jr." which is already a SASS-legal revolver. 

The only caveat is that there is not yet any mention of a firing pin rest between chambers.  So we don't know if this will be a 5 shot or a 4 shot revolver (for CAS purposes).

 

cimarron1862coltpocketnavyconversion-380acp_lead.jpg.05a0e7ff4ed419d16901a877a216f180.jpg

 

cimarron1862coltpocketnavyconversion-380acp_inset.jpg.1a21a3fe6bc20c2537d8f361dfed3ea7.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by McCandless
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39 minutes ago, McCandless said:

This is the gun the OP was talking about.  It fits all the requirements of a main match revolver.   It is purpose-built .380.  (Bullet dia. .355)  Which means the barrel is .355 (9mm) instead of the usual .375 for .36 ball.  We already allow 9mm as main-match ammo, the .380 is basically a 9mm "short".

It is the same frame size as a "Model P Jr." which is already a SASS-legal revolver. 

The only caveat is that there is not yet any mention of a firing pin rest between chambers.  So we don't know if this will be a 5 shot or a 4 shot revolver (for CAS purposes).

 

cimarron1862coltpocketnavyconversion-380acp_lead.jpg.05a0e7ff4ed419d16901a877a216f180.jpg

 

cimarron1862coltpocketnavyconversion-380acp_inset.jpg.1a21a3fe6bc20c2537d8f361dfed3ea7.jpg

 

 

 

Good looking revolver!

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Commonly available when?  Today or 1899?

 

I don't see the combination being targeted at CAS.  The 380acp was said to be an available cartridge but there are no commercial ammo that would be SASS legal.   All are jacketed.   So it's a handloading situations - something the vast majority of us do anyway.  So why not 38 Short Colt that would correct?  

 

A page and a part of 380acp ammo at Grafs is probably pretty typical of what you would find. 

 

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/25?page=1

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7 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

Commonly available when?  Today or 1899?

 

I don't see the combination being targeted at CAS.  The 380acp was said to be an available cartridge but there are no commercial ammo that would be SASS legal.   All are jacketed.   So it's a handloading situations - something the vast majority of us do anyway.  So why not 38 Short Colt that would correct?  

 

A page and a part of 380acp ammo at Grafs is probably pretty typical of what you would find. 

 

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/25?page=1

Believe it or not, the world doesn't revolve around CAS/SASS...

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To all wondering why 380 acp and not a more traditional rimmed cartridge. Is there room for 5 rims to fit? It's an awfully small circle we're looking at.

 

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Posted (edited)

As for whom the gun is marketed, I stand by my assertion that it is for cowboy shooters.   Very careful wording there.   Not CAS shooters or SASS shooters.   This is a gun that would be of interest to people who like old timey revolvers.   Would it be good to use in our game?  Would hope so, but not everyone who is a single action aficionado is a CAS shooter.   Yes, there is overlap, but the people who like old style guns includes all of us, but the CAS shooter does not necessarily include all those who like old style guns.

 

With that being said, if people who like these old guns actually own and shoot them, then they are more than likely handloaders.  Many of the guns that appeal to this crowd are in hard to find and/or expensive calibers.   Plus, there is also the fact that factory ammo may be more powerful than shooters wish to put in these guns, especially if they are old physically, and not just old designs.  Therefore, that makes the choice of .380 vs .38 Short Colt vs. 38 S&W a moot one.

 

However, something was just mentioned that had not occurred to me.  The rims on the Colt and S&W round may take up too much space to fit in the cylinder.  In that case, this would explain why the .380 was chosen, and it actually makes sense.   Which also may give credence to the idea that it's intended for CAS shooters, and not the "larger" community of single action lovers.   For CAS, it needs to be at least a 5 shot.   If it was just for general enthusiasts, a 4 shot cylinder would be okay.   But by making it a 5 cylinder gun, that suggests to me they are thinking of the CAS crowd.  That would, to me, suggest that there will be some sort of a safety notch.  Without it, they will have missed a major boat for the intended audience.

 

Just my thinking.  :)

 

But yeah, making it in .32 S&W or .32 S&W Long would have allowed it to be a six cylinder revolver... 

Edited by H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619

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On 4/9/2019 at 8:23 AM, Hoss said:

RULES SAY:

Revolver Requirements

Original single action revolvers manufactured prior to 1899, ~

 

380 ACP was introduced  in 1908 . and not a common revolver cartridge. Of course the 9mm was introduced in 1902 and it is SASS legal, as is the 45 ACP (introduced in 1905)

 

 

Rules for ammunition state:

 

SHB pg 37

Quote

Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or
percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber.
- Must be in a caliber commonly available in revolvers. Examples include, but are
not limited to, .32-20, .32 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .38 Special, .44 Magnum, .44-
40, and .45 Colt.

 

Talks all about caliber of the bullet. Says nothing of cartridge which holds said bullet.

 

There is one category where a shooter's cartridge is regulated.

 

Classic Cowboy participants may shoot percussion revolvers over .36, but must shoot rimmed cartridge ammunition. Ref SHB pg 7

 

Quote

- Revolver and Rifle Calibers: .40 caliber or larger, rimmed cartridges. Examples
include, but are not limited to, .38-40, .44 Special, .44 Russian, .44 Mag., .44-40,
.45 Schofield, .45 Colt, or .36 caliber or larger cap and ball.
- May use any SASS legal ammunition as long as it adheres to the above caliber
restrictions.

 

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2 hours ago, Snakebite said:

The founders described allowable ammunition in terms or caliber rather than making specific cartridge designations. This opened the door to just about any ammunition that meets diameter requirements (caliber).

 

Snakebite 

 

The "commonly available" ship sailed a long time ago... we allow .32acp, 9mm, 10mm, 45acp... (at one time, we allowed .30 carbine, but not anymore), as Snakebite says, it's the caliber, not the cartridge.  Although the cartridge is designated .380, the bullet size has been around a long time. 

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4 hours ago, Brimstone Bill Willson said:
10 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

 

"Commonly available" is actually defined in the Glossary of Terms -

Commonly available – obtainable by anyone given ordinary circumstances with ordinary means.

Of course, that begs a definition for "ordinary circumstances" and "ordinary means". :ph34r:

 

Anyone can walk into a gunstore and they will probably be able to order the Taurus m380 revolver:

Bud's Guns

 

Yes, but what constitutes "ordinary circumstances" and "ordinary means"? Custom work on a revolver is certainly ordinary, so a custom .356 barrel and custom .380 acp cylinder would have to be considered "ordinary". And what is "ordinary means"? Either a person's income or a procedure of ordering or manufacturing the parts. It's certainly ordinary to have, say, an octagon barrel made for a revolver, or a hammer modified to a lower profile, or a cylinder re-chambered, so...

 

Like McCandless said, " The "commonly available" ship sailed a long time ago."

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I don't know, definitively, if it is SASS/CAS legal, or not(I'd think it would be). I hadn't even heard of this revolver before I saw this thread -- and now I want one.

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1 hour ago, Oddnews SASS# 24779 said:

I don't know, definitively, if it is SASS/CAS legal, or not(I'd think it would be). I hadn't even heard of this revolver before I saw this thread -- and now I want one.

It depends upon what your definition the word "IS", is. :P 

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