Target placement and safety

[Sedalia Dave]

33 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Let me know if that works. I could not insert the text and it is no longer on the original Website.

 

Thanks  Downloads just fine.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Let me know if that works. I could not insert the text and it is no longer on the original Website.

 

worked for me!  Whatever happened to Calamity?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

29 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

 

worked for me!  Whatever happened to Calamity?

I don't know. The Website was in Manitoba. Maybe one of our Canadian friends may know.

 

IIRC there was a problem with her alias.

 

 

 

[Roscoe Regulator]

1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Let me add this from Calamity Jane.

 

 

Calamity's Splatter Report.doc

This attachment is the conversion to PDF.
 

Calamity's Splatter Report (1).pdf

[LAST CHANCE]

Even targets that are angle downward can give you ricochets and splatter. This year at EOT targets were very close but they were all angled well. I was hit with full bullet ricochets as well as pancaked lead bullet fragments probably over 10 times. 7 of which I eyed down, picked up and kept. I also had splatter fly under my shooting glasses and into the center of my right eye while i was shooting and had to have medicated eye drops every couple hours for 3 days. ( I am more susceptible to being hit because I run the timer quite often)  I had counters pulling their faces away from the shooting array as well as hiding behind props. There is a reason all steel target manufactures have REQUIRED distances for their targets, all of which from what I've seen is minimum of 7-10 yards for pistol ammo. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just to get terminology consistent, ALL metal targets produce splatter.

 

Controlling where the splatter goes is the issue at hand.

 

Phantom

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, LAST CHANCE said:

Even targets that are angle downward can give you ricochets and splatter. This year at EOT targets were very close but they were all angled well. I was hit with full bullet ricochets as well as pancaked lead bullet fragments probably over 10 times. 7 of which I eyed down, picked up and kept. I also had splatter fly under my shooting glasses and into the center of my right eye while i was shooting and had to have medicated eye drops every couple hours for 3 days. ( I am more susceptible to being hit because I run the timer quite often)  I had counters pulling their faces away from the shooting array as well as hiding behind props. There is a reason all steel target manufactures have REQUIRED distances for their targets, all of which from what I've seen is minimum of 7-10 yards for pistol ammo. 

Again, if you think that distance is the issue, you're mistaken. Secondary impacts and barriers are key.

 

Simple physics can calculate the amount of energy lost over 3-5 yards... It ain't much... Therefore distance of a few years is of very little concern regarding splatter control.

[LAST CHANCE]

4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Again, if you think that distance is the issue, you're mistaken. Secondary impacts and barriers are key.

 

Simple physics can calculate the amount of energy lost over 3-5 yards... It ain't much... Therefore distance of a few years is of very little concern regarding splatter control.

we are shooting at targets i can literally pee on. And i definitely can't piss over 3 yards even drinking cheap beer all night. And we shot the same targets in wildbunch for 12 stages days before using real loads with power factors. Never had a complaint of splatter or ricochets, never experienced one that match. Cowboy event, I didnt have one person on my posse that didn't get hit. Luckily we shot with an excellent nurse (EZGZ) who took care of me as well as 2 other shooters during the match.  Then again every target in WB was set 7 yards +. doesn't take a scientist to talk about lead splatter and ricochets. 

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

Moving targets back will not improve things.  I don't eve have to go into the physics to explain it.  The further away the target it, the more likely it is a shooter will miss the center of the target where splatter is directed to the ground.  As the number of misses of the target increase, the hits on the stands will be likely to increase.

 

If your range cannot afford new targets and your existing targets are cratered, consider a reduced number of stages with the best targets until good targets can be purchased.

 

 

[LAST CHANCE]

it's a lot easier to hit the edges of targets when they are 1 yard away and closer to you especially people that are tall, compared to trying to hit an edge at 10 yards. People shooting as fast as they can going somewhat uncontrolled because targets are in their face.

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

All the talk about angles and stands is just wasted bandwidth. Every major steel target manufacturer has a required minimum distance to place the targets. Many current CAS targets are well less than HALF of that distance. If a lawsuit is filed the expert witnesses from the target mfgrs. will testify and the results are pre-determined.

[Sarge]

Quote

The top manufacturers of steel targets have instructions for the setup of their products online.  They are good reads.  I'd recommend anyone setting up a stage do a little research beforehand.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Let me add this from Calamity Jane.

 

 

Calamity's Splatter Report.doc

Sure miss her input back when she was on the forum.

OLG

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

3 hours ago, LAST CHANCE said:

we are shooting at targets i can literally pee on. And i definitely can't piss over 3 yards even drinking cheap beer all night. And we shot the same targets in wildbunch for 12 stages days before using real loads with power factors. Never had a complaint of splatter or ricochets, never experienced one that match. Cowboy event, I didnt have one person on my posse that didn't get hit. Luckily we shot with an excellent nurse (EZGZ) who took care of me as well as 2 other shooters during the match.  Then again every target in WB was set 7 yards +. doesn't take a scientist to talk about lead splatter and ricochets. 

Maybe not (in reference to your scientist comment), but relying on your anecdotal evidence is pretty flimsy.

 

And if one thinks that they have an ounce of an argument against a related lawsuit based on a target manufacturers distance recommendation.. well... You really are kidding yourself.

 

I'm finished... Said my piece... Let the brilliance that is the Wire continue.

 

Phantom

[LAST CHANCE]

Actually, there's nothing anecdotal about it.  The lead was turned in to the Wildbunch and my thoughts and opinions (as well as the posse) about it were brought up and discussed in person at the time of the event. Flimsy comments about my word are not taken kindly. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

On 11/1/2018 at 7:11 PM, LAST CHANCE said:

Actually, there's nothing anecdotal about it.  The lead was turned in to the Wildbunch and my thoughts and opinions (as well as the posse) about it were brought up and discussed in person at the time of the event. Flimsy comments about my word are not taken kindly. 

First off, you taking this personally is uncalled for.

 

Your evidence is purely anecdotal. That's not an attack on you...

 

If you wish to disagree with me, please do. But attacking me personally is really not necessary.

 

Phantom... Guess I'm not done

[Snakebite]

A lot to be said on both sides of it... Good targets that are set up properly should indeed put the splatter down on the ground quickly. However... I believe that at times the lead can have a secondary rebound off of the ground and often off of the target stands ... I'm sure not going to get into any more Pi$$ing contest over it.  One thing that I have found is that nothing anyone says will change things, and SASS is NOT going to dictate minimum target placement for fear of loosing some important clubs.  EVEN I have moved a bit on this issue over the years. I have moved the targets at our annual Fort Miller match in closer than they use to be... I have NOT yet moved them into the Shooter's box however. My biggest fear at some places is that someone is going to shoot themselves in the foot!  The only thing that might possibly change things would be a law suit. Win or Loose, it would cost the club a bunch of money to defend themselves.  

[VICIOUS, SASS#8014]

HOWDY . For my aussie cowboys. I feel your pain. My government has mandated no target closer then 10 meters for steel'.

              Also mandated shrouding around targets except shotgun steel targets. Rubber conveyor belt  inside the wood last forever, but heavy to lug. 

Calamity; took up skating

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

On 11/1/2018 at 7:25 PM, Snakebite said:

A lot to be said on both sides of it... Good targets that are set up properly should indeed put the splatter down on the ground quickly. However... I believe that at times the lead can have a secondary rebound off of the ground and often off of the target stands ... I'm sure not going to get into any more Pi$$ing contest over it.  One thing that I have found is that nothing anyone says will change things, and SASS is NOT going to dictate minimum target placement for fear of loosing some important clubs.  EVEN I have moved a bit on this issue over the years. I have moved the targets at our annual Fort Miller match in closer than they use to be... I have NOT yet moved them into the Shooter's box however. My biggest fear at some places is that someone is going to shoot themselves in the foot!  The only thing that might possibly change things would be a law suit. Win or Loose, it would cost the club a bunch of money to defend themselves.  

 

[LAST CHANCE]

 

15 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

First off, you taking this personally is uncalled for.

 

Your evidence is purely anecdotal. That's not an attack on you...

 

If you wish to disagree with me, please do. But attacking me personally is really not necessary.

 

Phantom... Guess I'm not done

I'll be at WR and EOT 2019. If you are attending we will discuss this in person at some point... If you bring a cup... I'll have bourbon on hand. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, LAST CHANCE said:

 

I'll be at WR and EOT 2019. If you are attending we will discuss this in person at some point... If you bring a cup... I'll have bourbon on hand. 

I'll be there... I'll drink from the bottle.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'll be there... I'll drink from the bottle.

That should say-"Everyone's bottles". 

OLG

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

... I believe that at times the lead can have a secondary rebound off of the ground and often off of the target stands ... 

 

Its been my experience that any secondary rebound is rocks and other debris thrown out when the bullet fragments hit the ground. When I ran a club we solved this by putting carpet remnants under our targets. 

[Cholla]

This was from 13 years ago:

 

http://cowboybullets.com/assets/images/Instructions/SHOOTBeesand.pdf

 

 

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

 All  great information but , this has been beaten to death since day one. The industry has set minimums and you either follow them or you do not  at your own risk of injury or a lawsuit.

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 All  great information but , this has been beaten to death since day one. The industry has set minimums and you either follow them or you do not  at your own risk of injury or a lawsuit.

 

What industry? Where are these minimums published?

[Captain Bill Burt]

I did a little reading on velocity decay, interesting stuff. Two things seemed relevant to this discussion. One seemed obvious the other not so much. First, ballistic coefficient is pretty important. The less aerodynamic a bullet is the more quickly it loses speed. That didn’t surprise me. Second the higher the bullets initial speed the more quickly it’s velocity will decay.

 

Based on the table I found adding three or four more yards to target distances is not going to result in a significant loss of bullet speed when splash back happens. If we assume very poor BC for the splatter, less than 1000 FPS muzzle velocity, less velocity lost from impacting the target, you’re looking at a reduction in velocity of maybe 50 FPS max, probably less than that.

 

As Creeker said those few yards aren’t going to make a significant difference.

 

http://www.appliedballisticsllc.com/Articles/ABDOC121_VelocityDecay.pdf

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

Only matters what manufactures set as minimums .Keeps the potential law suits sort of subdued.

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

What industry? Where are these minimums published?

 In your quest to prove me wrong I will say this, MGM TARGET says 15 yd minimum any closer puts shooter and spectators at significant  risk . ARNTIZEN says 8 yd up to 38 cal ,12 yd for  44 ,45  and 12 yds. for bird shot. USPCA says 7yds . Need more ? let me know.

 

 Best wishes 

[Shooting Bull]

I need you to quote industry standards. ANSI standards for eye protection is an example of an industry standard. What you’ve quoted are manufacturers recommendations. The two are NOT the same. I don’t give a hoot about proving you or anyone else wrong. What I care about is people posting rules or “industry standards” that don’t exist. 

[Shooting Bull]

4 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 standard 

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Altogether too many folks seem to "Know what the Know" and are immune to simple facts and science.  Just to continue a point .... there are NO industry standards.  The problem(s) are caused by physics.  Projectile hardness and speed are of little or no consequence.  Target and Target Stand Design are the most important.  Targets MUST hang with the lower edge BEHIND the upper edge.  There should be NO projections through the target such as bolts or hooks.  Re-Bar is absolutely the worst target stand material.

 

After those hard parts are taken care of, the next item up for bids is the surface of the shooting bay.  If the shooting bay is gravel, your going to eat splash back.  PERIOD.  Rocks will deflect lead just as much if not more than poor targets.  A layer of Carpet remnants laid under the target can and will eliminate the splash back from a gravel bay surface.

 

Continuous parroting of nonsense is a waste.  Until the target design, method of hanging and base is addressed, target distance has no bearing.  I realize it is impossible to confuse some with actual facts and scientific proofs because they know what they know, no matter how ridiculous.  Entirely too many ignorant PARROTS!!

[Cowboy Junky]

Personally I don't think it has much to do with distance. It's more about target surface, they way the are hung (loose, tight the angles) the bolts that hold them on, etc. The most important is the cone as brought up early on. The worst hits I have seen have been on a common firing line and have came from another stage (inside that cone). I haven't seen anyone get hurt (personally) shooting close targets that were done right since I started in the late 90's. 

 

All I have ever seen was some splatter....but IMHO that's part of the sport. Nothing a decent set of glasses won't stop or a bandaid won't fix.  I get hit as the RO pretty often...…..but I have gotten much worse crossing a briar patch...…...lol.  

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

It's really not rocket science...

 

Target condition and angle defines where the splatter goes initially...

 

What the splatter encounters afterwords defines it's ultimate destination.

 

Cheers!

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Target angle and surface smoothness/hardness is of far more concern than distance.  Secondary is the way the targets are hung, that is, does the target turn significantly as it is being struck by the projectiles to allow for the parallel plane of the steel to line up with the firing line outer limits.

 

Absent of the correct angle to deflect projectiles down and back, pitting, holes, and bolts in the face of the target can create conditions where the projectile does not react to the target as expected and ricochets iradically.

 

Projectile speed and harness also play a role in ricochets when target angle is not correct.  Soft projectiles at moderate speed "splash" as they come apart on impact. 

 

Hard cast projectiles tend to stay together as a larger mass and bounce back after impacting a vertical target, even with a good surface, or encounter pits, holes, bolts, etc.  Slow speed projectiles don't have the energy to "splash" so retain much of their mass as they bounce off the steel.

 

Have you ever wondered why SG targets bounce back the most?  They are regularly set up with a nearly vertical face to the firing line that lends to bounce back.