Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I am buying an 1873 Winchester made in 1892 from a pal in California. It is an antique under the atf rules and in my experience can be shipped person to person with no problem. I would prefer to ship it via usps as it is much cheaper to get things sent to Alaska by federal mail than ups. My pal looked at the usps website and they seem to have mixed up the atf definition of an antique firearm so that it only includes guns that don't take cartridges, no matter when it was made. Has anyone shipped an antique long gun via usps lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Non-licensee's can ship long guns via US Postal Service..."Antique" or not. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 Antique becomes an issue in shipping them person to person across state lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Antique becomes an issue in shipping them person to person across state lines. How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 9 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Antique becomes an issue in shipping them person to person across state lines. Uh...what??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 18 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Uh...what??? Clearly there is some kind of miscommunication here. A private individual can legally ship an antique gun directly to another private individual, without going through an ffl. This is what I am talking about. If it is not an antique, it has to go through an ffl. The last gun I had shipped from California, the shipping dealer charged just under $200 to transfer and ship the gun, which was highway robbery. It would be even more annoying if the gun didn't legally have to go through an ffl. So, if the gun is an antique is an important question. My point was that the definition for an antique gun given on the USPS web site is different than the one used in the ATF regulations. This could cause problems shipping an antique rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Clearly there is some kind of miscommunication here. A private individual can legally ship an antique gun directly to another private individual, without going through an ffl. This is what I am talking about. If it is not an antique, it has to go through an ffl. The last gun I had shipped from California, the shipping dealer charged just under $200 to transfer and ship the gun, which was highway robbery. It would be even more annoying if the gun didn't legally have to go through an ffl. So, if the gun is an antique is an important question. My point was that the definition for an antique gun given on the USPS web site is different than the one used in the ATF regulations. This could cause problems shipping an antique rifle. I'm an FFL...so... Again, shipping long guns via the U.S. Postal Service is legal. Antique or not. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 7 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I'm an FFL...so... Again, shipping long guns via the U.S. Postal Service is legal. Antique or not. Phantom Things are simpler when you are an FFL. I used to be, had my own shop and worked for other shops for more than 25 years. When I finished my Ph.D I left the business for other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Dang, it can get confusing! From USPS.com 431.3 Antique Firearm Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica: A. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. B. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. (don't know why it came out underlined. I can't seem to override that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade Ripley Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Have you given Fedx a look i am a FFL dealer and never had a problem with shipping with them. Renegade Ripley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 There is no prohibition on non FFL holders from shipping long guns via USPS just handguns, those must be shipped by an FFL to use USPS. the except above clearly identifies antique firearms as "any firearm ... manufactured on or before 1898" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I have gone to my local post office and asked them, "Can I ship this antique Winchester 1887 repeating shotgun that was made in 1889?" They said yes, and I shipped it. They did not even ask for proof of the guns age. They accepted my word that it was an antique. I have also shipped cap and ball revolvers, and antique cartridge rifles that way. I do hold a C&R, but it was never mentioned or asked for, as the guns were antiques. I have never asked to ship an antique cartridge revolver, but I have received one in the mail. Best thing to do, go to your local post office and ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 7 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Things are simpler when you are an FFL. I used to be, had my own shop and worked for other shops for more than 25 years. When I finished my Ph.D I left the business for other things. I don't know what the relevance of this is to the question posed. Again, what makes you think that you as a non-licensee cannot ship a long gun via the US Postal Service across State lines???? Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I would just contact the post office and ask. You may get a more harmonious outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Perhaps what the good Doc is really wanting to know is can it be shipped directly to him? We have established that anyone can ship a long gun through the USPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 My feeling would be ship it USPS to a FFL and pay his fee and be done with it. We know you can ship USPS a long gun anywhere you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: I would just contact the post office and ask. You may get a more harmonious outcome. Oddly, the average usps worker in California does not have a clear understanding of the finer points of firearms law. Goody is quite right, I am (as I have repeatedly said in my posts) talking about sending an antique firearm directly to me. I would like to do what is legal without paying more than I have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Riot Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 41 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Oddly, the average usps worker in California does not have a clear understanding of the finer points of firearms law. Goody is quite right, I am (as I have repeatedly said in my posts) talking about sending an antique firearm directly to me. I would like to do what is legal without paying more than I have to. No offense to anyone trying to help here but do you wish to risk violating the law and possibly your freedom by taking advice you received from an online forum? If so, knock yourself out. I am sure the legal eagles involved will be completely understanding when you tell them that you got your advice from a forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 5 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said: No offense to anyone trying to help here but do you wish to risk violating the law and possibly your freedom by taking advice you received from an online forum? If so, knock yourself out. I am sure the legal eagles involved will be completely understanding when you tell them that you got your advice from a forum. Excellent point. The original post was to ask if anyone had any experience shipping antiques with usps of late. I know what the law is, I was asking about usps policy. As normal, the conversation morphed into something else due to responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: I don't know what the relevance of this is to the question posed. Again, what makes you think that you as a non-licensee cannot ship a long gun via the US Postal Service across State lines???? Phantom But-Doesn't a cartridge firing rifle have to go to an FFL, when shipped USPS from a non-FFL? This '73 is a cartridge gun. Respectfully, OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Is it really considered an antique? Caliber would seem to matter as I read the ATF definition. "and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade." https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique Regardless the USPS should be an option, just send it to the right place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I have had very frustrating experiences shipping USPS as they never track the package accurately. I would rather spend more and send UPS or FedEx as they would be tracking it better and on time. But that is my opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Anything Coming to Canada I WILL NOT use UPS or FedEx !!! Jabez Cowboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: But-Doesn't a cartridge firing rifle have to go to an FFL, when shipped USPS from a non-FFL? This '73 is a cartridge gun. Respectfully, OLG Post 1898 manufactured guns where a change in ownership occurs must go through an FFL... in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rancho Roy Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 This is the part that makes a pre1898 Rifle, not an antique.... Quote Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. Most ammunition we are talking about is readily available and still manufactured in USA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rattlesnake Slim Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I have purchased two antique Winchester rifles within the last two years. A 38WCF 1873 made in 1890 and a 32WCF 1892 made in 1897. Both came directly to me by USPS, one from an FFL dealer, one from a private individual here on the wire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Rancho Roy said: This is the part that makes a pre1898 Rifle, not an antique.... Most ammunition we are talking about is readily available and still manufactured in USA You have to read this very carefully. The section you are quoting is talking about reproductions of antique firearms. There is an other action that states that guns made in or before 1898 are antiques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 I have received MANY antique long guns shipped directly to me via USPS, FedEx, and UPS. At least half were cartridge arms that used currently available ammunition (45-70, 38-40, 30-40 Krag, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Appalachian Alan Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 someone posted the definition " or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica: A. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. B. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade." yours was an original made in 1892, so it is fine. the A and B are only for replicas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpo Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 On 6/19/2018 at 10:50 AM, Tyrel Cody said: Is it really considered an antique? Caliber would seem to matter as I read the ATF definition. "and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade." https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique Regardless the USPS should be an option, just send it to the right place. Tyrel, the Feds - ATF - have two different definitions of antiques. The one you linked to is for National Firearms Act. That's not what this question is about. My 1873 Winchester, made in 1885, is an antique. But if it had a 12" barrel, it would be a Short Barreled Rifle under the NFA, and wiuld NOT be an antique, because they have a different definition. This page has the "non-NFA" definition. Caliber only applies to replicas. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 @Alpo Thank you for clarifying, I'll be bookmarking that for future reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dustin Checotah Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 On 6/19/2018 at 1:35 PM, Nimble Fingers SASS# 25439 said: I have had very frustrating experiences shipping USPS as they never track the package accurately. I would rather spend more and send UPS or FedEx as they would be tracking it better and on time. But that is my opinion! He has that right. I bought a firearm from the classified page here and the seller gave me the tracking number. I saw that it was entered at his home P.O. then I didn't see it again until I actually saw the package at work. (I worked for the P.O. until recently) I had access at work to the tracking system that is not available to the public. I also know that there is no direct shipment from his P.O. to So it should have been scanned in a few places but was not. A suggestion if you do ship it with the P.O. pack it like it was glass because it won't be treated like is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Hacker, #60477 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 On 6/19/2018 at 2:42 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Post 1898 manufactured guns where a change in ownership occurs must go through an FFL... in a nutshell. As I read the USPS regs, this is only true if the shipment crosses state lines. An individual can ship a rifle or shotgun to another individual within the same state Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 Why are you looking at US Postal Service regs? All transfers of ownership must go through an FFL unless it's FTF and allowed in the State that the parties reside. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted June 22, 2018 Share Posted June 22, 2018 On 6/18/2018 at 10:41 PM, McCandless said: Dang, it can get confusing! From USPS.com 431.3 Antique Firearm Antique firearm means any muzzle loading rifle/shotgun/pistol, which is designed to use black powder or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition (except those that incorporate a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof); or any firearm (including those with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof, if such replica: A. Is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition. B. Uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition that is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. (don't know why it came out underlined. I can't seem to override that) Doc, Even though you both are non-licensee's if the sender gets the right USPS counter person that Antique gun can be sent directly to you, no FFL required. Some folks here are reading the USPS Pub 52 rules wrong. If a gun was made on or before 1898 it is considered to be an antique and can be mailed to an out of state non-licensee. (See the text above in RED) The part about the ammunition pertains to modern made replicas of an old gun. In this case that would be something like a Uberti made 73 rifle in 357 mag. It's an antique design but modern made in a common caliber. So it is not considered to be an antique. and would have to be shipped to an FFL if going out of state. As in part "A." However, if that uberti was a replica of an 1860 henry rifle and was chambered for 44 Henry rimfire ammo (which Uberti would never make) then even though that gun is modern made it would still be considered an antique because the ammo is not readily available. As in part "B." As McCandless points out, it can be confusing. Unfortunately most USPS counter folks don't know the rules either. Over the past 30 years I've dealt with the post office and ATF about the mailability of firearms and definition of an antique. One of the postmaster even told me that any gun had to have the firing pin remove. Luckily, I had a copy of the USPS Pub 52 with me at the time. I ask her to show me that reg. She said she would have to get back to me. Later she called and said I was correct and could I tell her where to get that Pub 52. They didn't even have one to refer to. She and I became friends and anytime she had a gun question she would call me to look it up for her. Dealing with the ATF about antiques. After an ATF audit i was told I had a modern gun listed as an antique. This was a win 92 made in 1894. but, it had been re-barreled to 357mag. I ask for a Tec branch ruling and they ruled it was still an antique. My inspector was OK with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.