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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

Ruling on leaving hulls in SG in hand..

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Since

Verification from the Range Operations Committee (ROC):

 

  Quote

The shooter would get a MSV for "failure to CLEAR all rounds remaining in the long gun" before FIRING the next TYPE firearm of the stage...even though the long gun is not actually "discarded" until the end of the last SG shooting string (or at the ULT).

this was likely to get buried in the other thread...

 

this was from Palewolf

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That's how it needs to be called, then!

Good luck, GJ

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Thank you Mr. Cheyenne for moving that information out front for all to enjoy.

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Pity that actual statement is not stated in the rule book, would have saved a whole lot of debate.:D and  the  'discarded'  reference is clarified better.?

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I think the rules would have been better served if the rifle and shotgun were included in the discarded for further use which would allow either firearm to contain empties staged or in hand for further use.  Just my opinion. 

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2 hours ago, twelve mile REB said:

I think the rules would have been better served if the rifle and shotgun were included in the discarded for further use which would allow either firearm to contain empties staged or in hand for further use.  Just my opinion. 

 

The statement in the rules regarding a RIFLE "restaged for further use" is expanded in the first reference in the SHB (quoted below)...it pertains primarily to a situation in which a round has been chambered in a RIFLE at the wrong time/location which must be fired (=P), allowing it to be restaged with rounds remaining without assessing an additional 10-second MSV penalty; (or ejecting all RIFLE rounds and reloading on the clock to avoid any penalties).

 

A SHOTGUN loaded at the wrong time/location is not required to be FIRED, as would a rifle or (revolver). once there is a live round under a cocked hammer...the one (or two) round(s) loaded may simply be removed without incurring a penalty.

 

Quote

If the rifle is the last firearm used (NOT recommended), it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area.  (This does not apply to firearms shot out of sequence, made safe, and then restaged for further use.)

SHB p.14

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Liked the quick decision on this

 

'course I would use three hands to shoot the revolvers if I had them so this doesn't directly apply to me other than when I RO

 

cheyenne

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3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

The statement in the rules regarding a RIFLE "restaged for further use" is expanded in the first reference in the SHB (quoted below)...it pertains primarily to a situation in which a round has been chambered in a RIFLE at the wrong time/location which must be fired (=P), allowing it to be restaged with rounds remaining without assessing an additional 10-second MSV penalty; (or ejecting all RIFLE rounds and reloading on the clock to avoid any penalties).

 

A SHOTGUN loaded at the wrong time/location is not required to be FIRED, as would a rifle or (revolver). once there is a live round under a cocked hammer...the one (or two) round(s) loaded may simply be removed without incurring a penalty.

 

SHB p.14

 

I have no argument PW, but have seen and been in shootoffs that allowed the shooter to restage the rifle with a empty  in the chamber fire another weapon then reload the rifle and engage the stop plate.  The three times I remember also included RO heavy weights either running, participating or watching the event.  I understand that "S" happens and can go unnoticed or things can change over time.  I thought that allowing the same latitude to the shotgun would make sense to me.   Unfortunately, I don't have the time or resources at the moment to look it up.  However would not the rules covering safe to leave the shooters hand cover the situation described in your first paragraph?    

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5 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

 

I have no argument PW, but have seen and been in shootoffs that allowed the shooter to restage the rifle with a empty  in the chamber fire another weapon then reload the rifle and engage the stop plate.  The three times I remember also included RO heavy weights either running, participating or watching the event.  I understand that "S" happens and can go unnoticed or things can change over time.  I thought that allowing the same latitude to the shotgun would make sense to me.   Unfortunately, I don't have the time or resources at the moment to look it up.  However would not the rules covering safe to leave the shooters hand cover the situation described in your first paragraph?    

myself, I'd like to know exactly where these things happened and who saw it without calling it... 

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1 hour ago, twelve mile REB said:

 

I have no argument PW, but have seen and been in shootoffs that allowed the shooter to restage the rifle with a empty  in the chamber fire another weapon then reload the rifle and engage the stop plate.  The three times I remember also included RO heavy weights either running, participating or watching the event.  I understand that "S" happens and can go unnoticed or things can change over time.  I thought that allowing the same latitude to the shotgun would make sense to me.   Unfortunately, I don't have the time or resources at the moment to look it up.  However would not the rules covering safe to leave the shooters hand cover the situation described in your first paragraph?    

 

In a RARE stage situation with multiple split RIFLE shooting strings (as in a "shoot off" scenario) I would say that exception would apply:

 

Quote

 

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire - Rifles

A rifle is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:

- Empty.

- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for further use).

SHB p.15

 

 

The shotgun rule does not contain that allowance:

 

Quote

Safe Conditions During a Course of FireShotguns

A shotgun is considered SAFE to leave the shooter’s hands in the following condition only:

- Empty.

ibid

 

 

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3 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

myself, I'd like to know exactly where these things happened and who saw it without calling it... 

 

If you were in a position to adjudicate such things I would of course name names, places and circumstance.  However,  you are not in such a position and I find no satisfaction in embarrassing those involved or pointing fingers.  I am interested only in being able, with a certain amount of certainty, to recall and administer rules in a fair and honest manner.  In any event this is not the forum to do so. 

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3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In a RARE stage situation with multiple split RIFLE shooting strings (as in a "shoot off" scenario) I would say that exception would apply:

 

 

The shotgun rule does not contain that allowance:

 

ibid

 

 

I understand PW my point from the beginning was that it would not hurt my feelings if it did contain that allowance.  I would love to see a duelist cope with split pistols and shotgun in such a manner.  A gamer out gaming the rest of the crowd, how cool is that.

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10 hours ago, twelve mile REB said:

I understand PW my point from the beginning was that it would not hurt my feelings if it did contain that allowance.  I would love to see a duelist cope with split pistols and shotgun in such a manner.  A gamer out gaming the rest of the crowd, how cool is that.

Not a problem I would just set the shotgun down on the prop while still holding on to it and shoot my pistol 

You want to talk about an advantage how about the two handed shooters, how about we make it where you use only your strong hand to cock the pistols and the weak hand can only support the pistol 

Every shooting style has their advantages and disadvantages, when I posted my WTC we had a split decision what the call would have been 

Never would I have thought that this would have been distorted the way it has 

unbelievable 

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4 hours ago, Bittertrigger said:

Not a problem I would just set the shotgun down on the prop while still holding on to it and shoot my pistol 

You want to talk about an advantage how about the two handed shooters, how about we make it where you use only your strong hand to cock the pistols and the weak hand can only support the pistol 

Every shooting style has their advantages and disadvantages, when I posted my WTC we had a split decision what the call would have been 

Never would I have thought that this would have been distorted the way it has 

unbelievable 

 

Ok.  I really don't understand how you consider an opinion that wishes the shotgun had the same allowances during split weapon scenarios that the rifle and pistols enjoy,  to have distorted the original post.  I never talked about an advantage or disadvantage but did say how much I personally enjoy watching someone that has the ability to cope with a situation in an original manner.  Also, I do NOT consider a gamer a cheat but a 100 watt blub surrounded by 60 watters.  Of course your mileage may vary.

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+1

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This thread has been reported as turning contentious. Please don't make us lock the thread.

 

BTW, PWB gave a ruling on another thread, which is quoted in the OP, and he has already answered a question.  Isn't that enough?

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Question asked, ROC consulted for correct call, PaleWolf gave us the answer, Cheyenne started a new thread so we could all see the answer, I predict 2 pages if Allie doesn't have to lock it. :D:lol:

 

Randy

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Yep - it's been asked, cussed & discussed, submitted, resolved & codified. Probably not more than 1 more page & this puppy can go to sleep !  :D:D

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1 hour ago, Yusta B. said:

Yep - it's been asked, cussed & discussed, submitted, resolved & codified. Probably not more than 1 more page & this puppy can go to sleep !  :D:D

That's a shame, Just when I felt like beating a dead horse.

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16 minutes ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

That's a shame, Just when I felt like beating a dead horse.

 

Fell free to kick the bones around!

;)

 

 

dead horse.jpg

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Fell free to kick the bones around!

;)

 

 

dead horse.jpg

I think there may be one or two worth gnawing on for a while!!;)

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 Winter Range Top 16 Shoot off.  Rifle was shot 1st  shooting 10 rds,  then carried to a new position where an eleventh shot would shoot the final target for the win.  One or more shooters loaded the final 11th round on the move in the magazine of the rifle and staged  for future use after shooting the shotgun and pistols.   Very creative.  This was one of those special cases. 

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11 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

 Probably not more than 1 more page & this puppy can go to sleep !  :D:D

Any bets?  :lol:  MT

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I certainly wouldn't add anything relevant, anymore, to promote additional comments resulting in multiple pages

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This has been an informative thread and fun to read.  Thanks to all who posted.

 

Honest.  

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wait!!!!! Wyatt had NOTHING to say? 

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2 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

wait!!!!! Wyatt had NOTHING to say? 

Yes he did! He has a special technique that only "special" people can see. ;)

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Are

16 hours ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

That's a shame, Just when I felt like beating a dead horse.

 

I remember when young, and if and when mom or dad made a ruling, decision or a clarification, it went no further. :lol:  MT

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Well if anything, it will make for great debate around the fire :D:D

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2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Yes he did! He has a special technique that only "special" people can see. ;)

It involves vinegar & a candle .......  :lol:

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17 hours ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

That's a shame, Just when I felt like beating a dead horse.

when I was very young I lived on a dairy farm,, when a cow wud die and bloat, my sister and I wud use it like a trampoline!!  fortunately they never burst!!

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5 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

when I was very young I lived on a dairy farm,, when a cow wud die and bloat, my sister and I wud use it like a trampoline!!  fortunately they never burst!!

That explains a lot .....  :)

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