Total Time is now the official scoring method

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I guess beating a dead horse does make a difference.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Well, when the hole created from beating that horse suddenly broke the surface in China someone took notice.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Now that Horse can find some rest ....

WOO -HOOO !!!

 

Reasoned thought has Won the Day ....

 

Now are the Squaw Grippers , sub Caliber Shooters ,,,, won't be affecting other shooters ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

This is very welcome news.  Too bad SASS did not listen to it's customers on scoring and other issues earlier. 

[Coyote Kincaid]

Nevermind, I found it.

[Buckshot Dobbs]

4 minutes ago, Coyote Kincaid said:

Where has this been made official and when does it become official?

come on Kincaid, pay attention man. 

 

[Coyote Kincaid]

Just now, Buckshot Dobbs said:

come on Kincaid, pay attention man. 

 

Haha! Man I got so excited I didn't even look up. I just scrolled past the pinned posts like I always do.

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

So, in total time, what's a SDQ ?? Isn't it something like 5 seconds for each target/miss on the stage plus 30 seconds?? Something like that ??

Does it state this in a handbook somewhere??

[K.C. Ranger]

So, now that total time is the status quo, should we start a thread demanding rank points be used? 

[Hud McCoy]

Yes a stage DQ is 30 seconds and the number of targets on the stage times 5 equals stage DQ.

[Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263]

That's what I thought, thanks Hud. Would still like to see in writing somewhere. Just looked thru the handbooks, didn't find anything yet. Handbooks have not been updated yet, still says rank points is the official way to score, I'm sure that will change shortly.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

1 hour ago, Hud McCoy said:

Yes a stage DQ is 30 seconds and the number of targets on the stage times 5 equals stage DQ.

I think this wording may cause misunderstandings.  We usually shoot physical targets multiple times.  This wording indicates we should count the number of physical targets present on a stage and not the number of times the physical targets are to be shot.  Let's be very clear with the wording of the penalty.

[Yul Lose]

Good news, for sure.

[Yusta B.]

38 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

I think this wording may cause misunderstandings.  We usually shoot physical targets multiple times.  This wording indicates we should count the number of physical targets present on a stage and not the number of times the physical targets are to be shot.  Let's be very clear with the wording of the penalty.

After reading some of the arguments on the wire - you are absolutely right. It should specify 5 sec for each round required in the stage description + 30 sec.

[Rye Miles #13621]

YAY!!!!!!

[Cat Brules]

 

Well,

Here's what I received.

Cat Brules

July 13, 2017

 

 

 

Dear SASS Match Directors, Event Organizers, RO Committee, and Affiliated Club Contacts:   After careful consideration and evaluation of the countless requests and movements regarding scoring methods for Cowboy Action Shooting™, the SASS Board of Directors do hereby decree that effective immediately, all SASS Sanctioned Cowboy Action Shooting™ matches are to be scored using Total Time. Please consider this your notice to that effect and make immediate changes to your match planning to accommodate the change.    SASS Sanctioned Cowboy Action Shooting™ matches will no longer be allowed to use any scoring method other than Total Time. Updated contracts will be issued in the coming weeks to reflect the change.    We feel strongly that this monumental change will garner great support and appreciation from our valued members.    Respectfully, Misty     Misty D. Miller aka Misty Moonshine Chief Executive Officer Single Action Shooting Society SASS Patron Life #83232 misty@sassnet.com Office: 505-843-1320 Toll free: 877-411-SASS

[Whiskey Hayes #41999]

I believe in previous handbooks it was stated round count x 5 + 30 was a stage DQ using total time.  A 10 - 10 - 4 stage would be 150 seconds for SDQ.  I have all the old books on my computer but I won't be at PC till Monday.  I'm sure SASS will let us know correct method very quickly. This Saturday I'm going to use 150 seconds for SDQ.

 

Whiskey Hayes

[Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317]

3 hours ago, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

That's what I thought, thanks Hud. Would still like to see in writing somewhere. Just looked thru the handbooks, didn't find anything yet. Handbooks have not been updated yet, still says rank points is the official way to score, I'm sure that will change shortly.

 

Red-Eyed Kid - I snipped this off page 24 of the 2016 ROI book.

 

 

 

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

 The SASS Wire is not composed of an over whelming number of SASS members by a long shot. This was pushed by a group that was very vocal. The other side of the camp just kept their mouth shut because the others had already made up their mind and then they presented a well done presentation at EOT. This was not how things were done in the past. Now, a small number of people are making decisions for the majority without a consensus of all of the clubs. Had there been a TG Summit, it would have been fair, this was not. I don't care which method is used for scoring, but I guess after 30 plus years, we have been doing it wrong all along. BRING BACK THE TG SUMMIT so all members get a voice.

[COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921]

This is a great change; I never liked other categories having an effect on a small category like Classic Cowboy.

 

Many years ago while shooting Modern at a 2 day match; I beat the third place Modern shooter by 100 seconds and didn't place.

At the same match; a top shooter left before shooting 2 stages  and still placed in the top 3. Nothing will ever make me think that it's fair when someone gets a DQ or doesn't finish the match, places above someone that finished the whole match.

[Yankee, SASS #266]

This SUCKS!

[Dusty Barbacobre #101065]

I was poised to be a champion and they go and change the rules on me again! (At least, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!) Dang rule changes!

 

;-)

[Yul Lose]

1 hour ago, COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921 said:

This is a great change; I never liked other categories having an effect on a small category like Classic Cowboy.

 

Many years ago while shooting Modern at a 2 day match; I beat the third place Modern shooter by 100 seconds and didn't place.

At the same match; a top shooter left before shooting 2 stages  and still placed in the top 3. Nothing will ever make me think that it's fair when someone gets a DQ or doesn't finish the match, places above someone that finished the whole match.

I've been beat like that a couple of times. Both times the guy in my class got a SDQ and he still won with rank points and I beat him time wise both times.

[Boon Doggle]

A big Thank You TJD.

[Texas Jack Daniels]

To everyone who has sent me a note or said thank you on the wire I thank you and am humbled by all of this.  All I did was a pile of math while in China that presented an objective analysis as opposed to subjective opinion.  It was the follow up by all the TG's and SASS members who took to heart my suggestion that they discuss this with their clubs and request the WB to consider a change that ultimately influenced the decision. 

 

For those interested the long version of the presentation is available if you want to see the math. 

http://www.thunderriverrenegades.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/SASS-Scoring-Program-Comparison-Release-1.pptx

http://www.thunderriverrenegades.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/SASS-Scoring-Program-Comparison-Release-1.pdf

 

I am in China and cannot see Facebook at all. To those who have posted there I also thank you. 

 

To everyone, until we meet again may the good Lord hold you in the palm of his hand. 

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

No more Rank Points means no more 999. Now if you get a SDQ it's 30 seconds plus 120 which total's 150.  For two  SDQ's it's a Match DQ.

 

SDQ is 30 seconds plus 120 which total's 150 SDQ

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

5 hours ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

 The SASS Wire is not composed of an over whelming number of SASS members by a long shot. This was pushed by a group that was very vocal. The other side of the camp just kept their mouth shut because the others had already made up their mind and then they presented a dog and pony show at EOT. This was not how things were done in the past. Now, a small number of people are making decisions for the majority without a consensus of all of the clubs. Had there been a TG Summit, it would have been fair, this was not. I don't care which method is used but I guess after 30 plus years, we have been doing it wrong all along. BRING BACK THE TG SUMMIT so all members get a voice.

At least 2 attempts were made to add scoring  to past TG summit agendas.  The WB would not put it on the agenda.  Put the blame where it belongs not on vocal TGs at the EoT TG meeting with no agenda. 

[Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L]

25 minutes ago, Jackrabbit Joe #414 said:

No more Rank Points means no more 999. Now if you get a SDQ it's 30 seconds plus 120 which total's 150.  For two  SDQ's it's a Match DQ.

 

SDQ is 30 seconds plus 120 which total's 150 SDQ

That assumes it is a 10-10-4 stage.  In reality, it is 5 seconds per shot, plus 30 seconds.  If the stage was a 10-10-6, it would be 130 seconds.

 

10-10-4  = 120sec + 30sec = 150sec

10-10-6 = 130sec + 30sec = 160sec

  9-10-4 = 115sec + 30sec = 145sec

[Marauder SASS #13056]

43 minutes ago, Texas Jack Daniels said:

To everyone who has sent me a note or said thank you on the wire I thank you and am humbled by all of this.  All I did was a pile of math while in China that presented an objective analysis as opposed to subjective opinion.  It was the follow up by all the TG's and SASS members who took to heart my suggestion that they discuss this with their clubs and request the WB to consider a change that ultimately influenced the decision. 

 

For those interested the long version of the presentation is available if you want to see the math. 

http://www.thunderriverrenegades.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/SASS-Scoring-Program-Comparison-Release-1.pptx

http://www.thunderriverrenegades.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/SASS-Scoring-Program-Comparison-Release-1.pdf

 

I am in China and cannot see Facebook at all. To those who have posted there I also thank you. 

 

To everyone, until we meet again may the good Lord hold you in the palm of his hand. 

 

Thanks for the limited analysis.  I would not call it totally objective due to the assumptions used. 

 

You did a good job of stating the common complaints about ranks scoring and the misunderstandings of using such indexing.

 

But at this point it doesn't matter, we will use total time for all matches, larger or small.  So we can move on to other more important discussions. 

 

Such as is an empty cartridge laying crossways in an open action an unsafe situation?

[Marauder SASS #13056]

As to the Stage DQ, in some cases I've seen, the score is also done by taking the highest time and adding from 10 to 30 seconds. 

 

This is done when the max time recorder may be larger than the time calculated by the normal method of targets +30 seconds. 

 

That ensures that the DQ will be the largest time scored.

[Diamond S Doug]

On 7/13/2017 at 9:46 AM, Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 said:

So, in total time, what's a SDQ ?? Isn't it something like 5 seconds for each target/miss on the stage plus 30 seconds?? Something like that ??

Does it state this in a handbook somewhere??

The only place I could find a reference was in the ROI manual, no longer on line, Page 24; 

 

Other scoring systems may be used at state and local levels, such as overall time. If overall time is used, a maximum allowed time for each stage should be calculated prior to the match to be used as the disqualification score and maximum stage score. It is recommended the maximum time allowed for a stage be a total of all the available targets/miss penalties plus 30 seconds.

 

This gives the SDQ and Maximum time allowed stage time so a SDQ will never be higher than a recorded score.

 

I wonder if this will make it to the handbooks that are posted online.

[Diamond S Doug]

16 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

As to the Stage DQ, in some cases I've seen, the score is also done by taking the highest time and adding from 10 to 30 seconds. 

 

This is done when the max time recorder may be larger than the time calculated by the normal method of targets +30 seconds. 

 

That ensures that the DQ will be the largest time scored.

The last posted RO1 handbook had a Maximum stage score on page 24 that was also targets x 5 + 30 as well.  See my previous post.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Doug, you are correct, but what do you do when an other shooter shoots the stage slower than that but someone gets a stage DQ?

 

Do you leave the DQ with a lower score than the other shooter?

[Diamond S Doug]

5 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Doug, you are correct, but what do you do when an other shooter shoots the stage slower than that but someone gets a stage DQ?

 

Do you leave the DQ with a lower score than the other shooter?

 

The slower shooter gets scored with the maximum score of the stage which is targets x 5 + 30

So if a shooter SDQs on a 10, 10, 4 they get scored 150.

If a slow shooter scored 180 on a stage they get scored a 150, the maximum stage score. In this example both shooters get the maximum score on the stage.

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

Failure to anticipate the consequences - which will flow out over time.