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Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

out of battery discharge video

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It looked like the shooter was wearing a GoPro. I'd like to see that video.

On reading back through all the stages, that question is asked and answered.

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It looked like the shooter was wearing a GoPro. I'd like to see that video.

 

I asked CC about that on facebook, he said he forgot to turn it on for that stage.

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Excellent steadiness (reaction) to the situation. Have shot with Cheyenne Culpepper a few times and he is one to ride the river with - though he ain't really 'Purdy' :D

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I believe I'm starting to get the lowdown on this "out of battery discharge" (OBD) thingy.

What I'm trying to wrap my head around is why the shooter stopped the rapid lever action after the 6th round and pulled the hammer back instead.

Maybe I missed the loading of the 7th round by the last action work along with the pulling of the trigger. Video and shooter were way too fast to catch all the steps.

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Garth - When running a lever gun it sometimes happens that the first hammer fall will not set off the primer, some folks will just lever to get a fresh round in, others will pull the hammer back to give it another try. When running at full speed fast shooters like CC do this automatically as a practiced re-action.

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Griz:

Got it; however, those folks that lever another round will be short a round in the end, correct? Thus requiring a reload?

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Griz:

Got it; however, those folks that lever another round will be short a round in the end, correct? Thus requiring a reload?

 

Correct. Which is why many folks cock the hammer and try again.

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I had 2 out of battery discharges with my 66. Both because my finger hit the trigger as I was levering the gun closed. No safety like a 73. Could that be the case here? I no longer shoot my 66, went to a 73.

Both times it bent the lever and banged the heck out of my fingers.

Ike

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In looking at video, it appeared that a round would not properly chamber and shooter yanked lever to get it to go in. When that happens inertial energy overcomes firing pin spring safety energy and firing pin sets off out of chamber round. That is why I learned from a study reported on this forum years ago on out of battery discharges in lever rifles to always use a case checker on all rounds.

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Case gauge are good to find split mouth cases, bulged cases from improper crimp, case that are not straight, but will not necessarily find metal fatigued cases that will split circular around to cause full case separation within chamber on next usage.

 

Best solution is to shoot your best & known life brass in your rifle and shoot your unknown range (multi-multi-multi, reloads) in your pistols.

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Here is a link to the experiment I did to show how an out of battery discharge can happen:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXjedW9VQrI

 

The gun is short stroked and lightened mainspring but has the lever safety in place and functioning.

 

I simulated a blockage in the chamber by installing a pin in an empty cartridge to stop the cartridge from going into the chamber the last quarter inch. Such a blockage could be a squib bullet, swelled case, fouled chamber or other obstruction.

 

When closing the lever forcefully, the bolt stops but the firing pin and extension keep moving with enough force to fire the primer by inertia.

 

Sorry Guys, I don't know how to post this as a clickable linkl

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Can you explain for us ranch hands what an "out of battery discharge" is?

 

1.) Non use of Energizer batteries;

2.) Failure to check battery for a full charge;

3.) Opposite of an Honorable Discharge;

4.) None of the above.

 

Howdy

 

None of the above.

 

When firearm is ready to fire, it is said to be 'in battery'. With a revolver this means that the cylinder has rotated to present a live round under the hammer, and the cylinder is locked in position. With a rifle or shotgun, it means there is a live round in the chamber, and the bolt is locked and the firearm is ready to fire.

 

An out of battery discharge is a discharge that happens with the firearm not properly in battery. In the case of the video in question, the bolt had not locked closed yet. You can see the flash as the cartridge ruptured because it was only partially in the chamber and the bolt was not fully closed when the firearm discharged.

 

As can be seen in the video in post #47 a toggle link rifle such as the 1860 Henry, Winchester Model 1866, or Winchester Model 1873 can be made to fire out of battery. This was discovered a number of years ago and has been well documented. If a cartridge jams partially in the chamber with the extractor hook firmly holding the rim, and if the shooter works the lever forcefully enough, the momentum of the firing pin moving forward with the bolt can overcome the firing pin retraction spring and allow the firing pin to jump forward forcefully enough to fire the primer.

 

That is exactly what happened in this instance. I you watch just before the OBD, you will see the shooter works the lever extra vigorously, probably trying to shove the stubborn round into the chamber.

 

That is why if a round seems to be stubborn to chamber in a Henry, '66, or '73, the shooter should never try to force it into the chamber.

 

The shooter may or may not have known that, perhaps he forgot in the heat of competition.

 

Personally, if I had a OBD like that, I probably would not have enough discipline to finish the stage.

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Case gauge are good to find split mouth cases, bulged cases from improper crimp, case that are not straight, but will not necessarily find metal fatigued cases that will split circular around to cause full case separation within chamber on next usage.

 

Best solution is to shoot your best & known life brass in your rifle and shoot your unknown range (multi-multi-multi, reloads) in your pistols.

It will find rounds that will not chamber, unless there is stuck round in the chamber already with some kind of failure.

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Not to change the subject, but it doesn't seem like a great idea to run DOWNRANGE in front of a partially loaded (?) rifle with a closed action.

 

Just sayin.....

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Not to change the subject, but it doesn't seem like a great idea to run DOWNRANGE in front of a partially loaded (?) rifle with a closed action.

 

Just sayin.....

The stage called for the rifle to be pointed to the left when placed after the string - seemed to be 45° give or take - and there was a wood block to ensure this - there was no danger for the shooter.

 

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Not to change the subject, but it doesn't seem like a great idea to run DOWNRANGE in front of a partially loaded (?) rifle with a closed action.

 

Just sayin.....

 

 

From the video it appears that the rifle is discarded at that position pointed to the left, and from the layout of the rest of the stage that is where it's supposed to be discarded. Perhaps there was a board to force you to discard it so it's pointing to the left, away from the side of the bay where shooter will be moving down range. What also isn't seen is if another posse member removed the malfunctioning rifle as the shooter moved away.

 

Edit - Gunner, who was there, beat me to it, I was confident that it was something like that.

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Question. Can an out of battery discharge happen in a 92? Or is it associated only with the toggle linkage rifles as stated above. Just asking for clarification

Thanks!

Glad the shooter was not harmed!

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Question. Can an out of battery discharge happen in a 92? Or is it associated only with the toggle linkage rifles as stated above. Just asking for clarification

Thanks!

Glad the shooter was not harmed!

Yes,

 

As well as Semi-auto rifles/pistols and pump shotguns.

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Great video, you held it together very well and I'm glad no one was hurt.

 

So, according to some, an out of battery discharge will maim the shooter and anyone within a 500 yd. radius. This didn't appear to be the case. Was the rifle damaged? Did it split the cartridge case? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

Cholla

 

Had the shooter done what most people do an look down into the action while moving the lever the outcome would have been a lot less harmonious.

 

The main reason the shooter did not get injured is that he kept the rifle shouldered instead of removing it from his shoulder and looking down onto the action.

 

It is human nature to want to see why the firearm is malfunctioning so people lower the firearm and look into the action. However,doing so places the shooter directly into the path of hot gasses and shrapnel if an OBD occurs.

 

The risk of serious injury due to an OBD means that shooters and TOs need to be keenly aware what not to do while manipulating the action on a firearm that is jammed.

 

If you look closely the shooters finger was not in the trigger guard when the OBD occurred.

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What about the Marlin 1894? Looks to me like even with one-piece firing pin, the pin is blocked by the lever blade until the lever is substantially closed.

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Question. Can an out of battery discharge happen in a 92? Or is it associated only with the toggle linkage rifles as stated above. Just asking for clarification

Thanks!

Glad the shooter was not harmed!

 

I suppose it could happen but in 26 years of working the 92's I have never seen nor heard of it happening. Probably because the 92 has a passive safety built into the design. The top of the lever blocks the firing pin until the action is fully closed.

 

As for this 73 OBD It could well have been something as simple as a stuck firing pin. Over the years I have work several 66 and 73's that were damaged because of OBDs. Some were related to the short stroke work that prevented the toggle from going fully straight. They just blew open bending levers, whacking fingers and one sent a piece of brass into the timers neck. !!!! not good.

The one that was obviously a stuck firing pin (it was still stuck when I took it apart) was a 45lc shot with black powder loads. The blow back fouling is what got the firing pin.

One of the advantages of the original 73 one piece firing pin design is working the action also retracted the firing pin. It does not depend on a coil spring to push it back.

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there was no part of a case left in the chamber,,,

 

best of my recollection this is what happened,,, first 6 went smoothly, 7th round wouldn't fire at all, least that I heard so I cocked it once or twice to try to get it to go,, then had to use extra force to extract the case,, 8 th round is the one that blew, no extra jiggling or anything,,,went about halfway into the chamber before blowing,, One bullet was in the barrel...

 

I will post a pic of the case this evening, it had a hole about 5/16 blown open, but all of the case was still there.. it looked like a door standing open.

 

I will also check to see if there is a bulge in the barrel,,, I did have a low charge one two nights before,, never heard a thing either...

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btw,,, I was NOT jiggling it,,, only extra force was to extract the 7th round, and the 8th wasn't requiring extra force.. a slow motion vid is being prepared and after I look at it I may post it...

 

even if the block of wood wasn't there you can see I laid the gun at about a 40 deg angle away from the targets...

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This may be over-simplification, however when I watched the vid several times, it appeared to me, CC was running the lever home

and got his finger into the trigger area and closing the lever released the hammer with his finger partly on the trigger. OOPS??

 

Coffinmaker

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watched it carefully, didn't hit the trigger unless my middle finger was not in the lever,, maybe,, I'll play with it and see what happens...

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Either way CC, THAT can certainly give one a severe case of Soggy Shorts. Fine Recovery .... Well Done :)

 

Coffinmaker

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played with the rifle,,, if my middle finger wasnt in the lever it may have hit the trigger and the rifle is sans a lever safety due to a ss kit...

 

the trigger may have been hit and it can fall unto the bolt

 

now, what happened with the 7th round, I have no idea!

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http://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=241091

 

Go down to the '73 test and the one after. This is what happens when you forcefully try to put one in the chamber.

 

This thread is from 2015.......hope it helps. Never force a round into any firearm. It might not be a good idea.

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CC worked the first six rounds of rifle using two fingers in the lever,,,eazy peezy.

 

Seventh round, he chambered but did not go off, he reached up and recocked hammer , but did not go. CC then lowered rifle, a little, and reached down with right full right hand to lever, to extract the seventh round, the lever did not work as free and needed more than two fingers to work the action. seventh round was extracted, unfired.

 

Then CC tried to chamber eight round and that is when the OBD happened.

 

Is that an accurate account?

 

Question,,, is the firing pin stock or one piece or? Is there a firing pin return spring in the bolt? Shooting BP, could there be a fouling/grud build up in the firing pin hole or tunnel in the bolt face? Broken return spring? A burr on the tip of the firing pin?

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Shyanne

 

I still think round seven was a silent squib and round eight has no where to go. Hence OBD

 

Here are the two videos Cypress Sam had a hand in making. ;)

 

 

 

 

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I'm guessing there was a squib and it looks like you accidentally bumped the trigger. I would suggest that you put the lever safety back in. You can actually run one faster with the safety than without and it minimizes the chance of this sort of thing happening.

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there was only one bullet in the barrel, I figure the 8th round,,, have no idea about the 7th round,, the brass rats didn't find a round that hadn't fired, and I don't think the obd bullet cud have pushed a squib round out..

 

the lever safety was removed years ago to facilitate the short stroke at the time, no spring on the two piece stock firing pin,,,

 

I've got another vid coming soon that I should be able to see things better,

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That's why the 73s have a lever safety block if the lever isn't completely against the stock a block will prevent the trigger from being fully pulled to release the firing pin. A lot remove the spring and block to make the easier to lever but a piano wire spring can replace the flat spring and still activate the block but no extra effort required to lever the gun. Marlins also have a block if I remember correctly.

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