Shooter's Choice of Which Gun to Start With?

[Palo Verde, SASS # 56522]

. No wonder I got that P on that last stage!!!

 

Gee whiz, Lars, is that what's got your panties is in a twist today?

Stop by tomorrow and the B.R. Rascal and I will chill you out with a cool one.

[San Quinton, SASS #4818]

And how long will it take before a group of unhappy campers declare the long heard "Well, everybody didn't shoot the stage the same so it just cannot happen that way!"??????

[Blastmaster]

Back to the original question and comment.

 

Yes it would be very welcome and add significant variation to shooting sequences by letting the rifle be shot last.

 

It has already been discussed about some difficulty picking up rifle shoots because of low sound from the muzzle, poor timer holding techniques and cheating.

 

I see little problems allowing rifle to be shot last at most regular monthlies, which vast majority of folks shoot anyway, and there is not that urge to win at any cost for the little plastic trophy. Most clubs probably have a stage with a roof, sides or other facade feature that would help direct more of the rifle blast to timer. Use that stage rather than something more open or next to another bay for the rifle last scenerio.

 

Clubs could, right now, shoot monthly stages with rifle last. There are no rules stating you can not. Just do it! Revisit the issue and see if it works for the club.

 

Save the standard five different sweeps, 10-10-4 and not end with rifle for the big matches

[Gawd Awful]

Too much depends on TO to finish with rifle even a rifle that meets WB power factor might not get picked up by a TO that's not holding timer properly or checking to see if timer is picking up shots, as a MD I'm not going to chance it that every TO is going to do it right.

 

AO

Exactly. Last time I wrote a "rifle last" stage, we had (if I rember correctly) 5 reshoots on my posse alone. All with different T.O.s

[Cowboy Junky]

In order to try and give more choice and make stages more interesting lots of stages are written "shooter may start with any gun." HOWEVER, the very next sentence is invariably, "however, the rifle cannot be LAST." If that is the case why bother? The thread on chronographs provides part of the answer. SASS has gone to a very low power factor of 60 for ammo and virtually no one even enforces that. You hear ammo out of rifles that sounds like an air rifle going off. Some pistols aren't much louder. Maybe if we started actually enforcing the power factor we could actually have shooter's choice of which firearm to start with. Seems like in a lot of places if someone tries to enforce the rules they get accused of being a "rule nazi." If some rules are so unpopular that no one enforces them maybe we ought to just scrap them. (Mild grumbling and frustation. )

Power factor is only part of the problem. Ever since I started dabbling with Marlins I have noticed lots of TO's missing my rifle splits. I've been more conscious of it because I'm trying to use that info to see what the switch is doing to my stage times.

 

I shoot a 1000+ FPS 122 grain load from my rifle and the timers miss them often so it's not all about power factor. Also IMHO even if they did enforce a PF or raise it (which isn't a bad idea) it would have to be MUCH higher than 60.......more like 120+ or outlaw Marlins......OMG.......lol

 

From what I have seen it will always be a big risk for a small reward to shoot the rifle last. If you have a good stage writer you don't have to end with rifle to "mix" things up.

[Ripsaw]

Adding shooter choice to the stage is a good thing. It gets you to think about stage strategy a little. What is the most efficient way to shoot this stage? How does gun choice affect movement? Choice on where to stage the guns is also good. "stage shotgun safely" is an example. That way you can move with it or stage it where you are going to shoot it. Your choice. Another is target choice. Engage all 5 targets with no double taps, vs. "Nevada Sweep" gives some variety.

 

All these things add up to variety and thoughtful play. It is a game, right? Thought so.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Adding shooter choice to the stage is a good thing. It gets you to think about stage strategy a little. What is the most efficient way to shoot this stage? How does gun choice affect movement? Choice on where to stage the guns is also good. "stage shotgun safely" is an example. That way you can move with it or stage it where you are going to shoot it. Your choice. Another is target choice. Engage all 5 targets with no double taps, vs. "Nevada Sweep" gives some variety.

 

All these things add up to variety and thoughtful play. It is a game, right? Thought so.

I don't even write to stage gun safely. We know to do that. And it is up to the shooter to do so.

[Blastmaster]

I don't even write to stage gun safely. We know to do that. And it is up to the shooter to do so.

I shoot at clubs that if the scenerio doesn't say anything, you default back to restage guns back where they came from.

 

Your method and mine are site specific club understands and fine and great, but it sure does mess with out of towners.

[Outrider Outlaw]

Perhaps I am missing something here. I admit I'm not real familiar with the actual timing clocks, but it would seem to me that the advantage to having "mouse fart" loads in the last gun fired would be that the clock wouldn't pick up the report and hence would not register all the shots fired--thus recording a shorter time. If there is a question about how many shots the clock recorded isn't it possible to review the "stop" times on the clock and count the number of shots recorded?

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

Perhaps I am missing something here. I admit I'm not real familiar with the actual timing clocks, but it would seem to me that the advantage to having "mouse fart" loads in the last gun fired would be that the clock wouldn't pick up the report and hence would not register all the shots fired--thus recording a shorter time. If there is a question about how many shots the clock recorded isn't it possible to review the "stop" times on the clock and count the number of shots recorded?

No, because if the shooter has some really good stage time and TO was not watching to see if timer was picking up shots then shooter would have to reshoot stage, timer does not need to get every shot , the last shot is what counts

 

when having a stage end with a rifle your probably not going to have a consistent match because some TO's are not going to get the right time on a shooter regardless of loads

 

AO

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Cowboy rules have evolved this way because of a couple of other factors that are not within the realm of "set a higher minimum power/noise factor".

 

Multi-stages on an open bay - loud shot on adjacent stage being picked up by timer especially when a quiet rifle load is being used on your stage.

 

.22 rifles can be used by youth shooters. And they are required by rule to be standard velocity ammo - something that probably no one really enforces because std vel 22 ammo is even harder to find than high velocity 22 ammo anymore.

 

You would open up rules for several rewrites if you try to enforce a higher minimum just to catch the shot report from existing light-load and youth shooters.

 

My suggestion - Leave Cowboy rules alone, and live with "no rifle last" - it's not that big a problem to add to a stage description.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Boggus Deal #64218]

I shoot at clubs that if the scenerio doesn't say anything, you default back to restage guns back where they came from.

 

Your method and mine are site specific club understands and fine and great, but it sure does mess with out of towners.

If there is a default you must do then you need to tell out of towners about it. It sounds to me like that club might have a thing for out of towners...

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I see a couple shooters at most local matches, the same shooters everytime, that have gnat fart loads. I have been known to bring them ten empty .22 hulls mixed in thier brass. They get the point but make no effort to bring comliant loads. I worked the unloading some at last week's matches and saw grown men shooting .38 Colt short loads in .357 chambered revolvers.

 

I guess the game means something else to them. For what its worth, they rarely score in the top 10% of shooters, so I do not understand the reason for the popgun loads.

Do you actually know the power factor or their loads or are you guessing that they are illegal. If you believe that they are illegal, you should be doing a chrono check of their loads. Bet they do not do it again if they fail.

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

I have a nice little Marlin Model 92 that I converted to shoot .32 S&W short for stages with the rifle last!

 

Just kidding!

 

We have found in Orlando that on open stages, no buildings, where the stage has side berms, the timer picks up rifle shots quite well. It seems like on the stages where you stick the rifle out of a window, that there is a problem.

[Hoss]

was at local match about a year ago, a little foggy on the first stage of the morning. One shooter, who is famous for mouse fart loads, was on the line. I could see the bullets as they left the muzzle to the target. One of them hit the target deflected down nearly whole, hit a rock or something and bounced up in the air about 10'. I think if I went and looked for that bullet I could have reloaded it again! I think that is one of the problem with really light loads, they are more likely to ricochet off targets nearly whole. Being hit by splatter is one thing, being hit by a 105 grain bullet, even at minimal speed, is another! I was once standing next to a guy that had his watch crystal broken by spatter. I suspect it was a nearly whole bullet.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

We almost always have shooters' choice of gun order (rifle last is allowed). Although I'm pretty slow, I still have preferences. I like to shoot pistols last and try to remember to not holster the first one until the string is done. I can gain a second or so then.

 

When I was new I always shot the SG last as I felt is shook me up a bit.

[Shooting Bull]

In order to try and give more choice and make stages more interesting lots of stages are written "shooter may start with any gun." HOWEVER, the very next sentence is invariably, "however, the rifle cannot be LAST." If that is the case why bother?

 

 

As much as I hate to admit this, you and I think a lot alike. I asked this exact question for the exact reason at Winter Range. Due to rifle not being allowed to be last it took pretty much all decision making out of the "shooter's choice" stages.

[Grizzly Dave]

 

 

As much as I hate to admit this, you and I think a lot alike. I asked this exact question for the exact reason at Winter Range. Due to rifle not being allowed to be last it took pretty much all decision making out of the "shooter's choice" stages.

 

I disagree, it allowed left handed folks to start at the right instead of the left. IIRC there was only one stage where using the 'shooter choice' to start on the right and move to the left impacted me, and that was where the rifle was at the left box and also two shotgun targets there, two at the right box as well. So I took the SG with me, restaged it, shot the rifle and then shot the shotgun. Would I have rather shot the SG first then rifle? you bet, but for me, that was a better option that moving left to right with a SG and a bum knee.

 

But as noted, allowing the rifle to be last opens up a lot more options, and at least where I shoot is being allowed more and more.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

 

I disagree, it allowed left handed folks to start at the right instead of the left. IIRC there was only one stage where using the 'shooter choice' to start on the right and move to the left impacted me, and that was where the rifle was at the left box and also two shotgun targets there, two at the right box as well. So I took the SG with me, restaged it, shot the rifle and then shot the shotgun. Would I have rather shot the SG first then rifle? you bet, but for me, that was a better option that moving left to right with a SG and a bum knee.

 

But as noted, allowing the rifle to be last opens up a lot more options, and at least where I shoot is being allowed more and more.

Picking which end to start on and choosing which gun to start with aren't necessarily the same thing. A lot of the stages at Winter Range are mirror stages so a shooter can start on either end.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Just throw in a couple of knock down targets or Texas star and the power factor problem will take care of itself. After a couple of months, they will adjust their loads.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Just throw in a couple of knock down targets or Texas star and the power factor problem will take care of itself. After a couple of months, they will adjust their loads.

Yep. It sure will. The reason most shooters have a box of knockdown loads in their gun cart at all times.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Yep. It sure will. The reason most shooters have a box of knockdown loads in their gun cart at all times.

Yep. And, if the shooting order is plate, knock down, plate, knock down, plate. The sound will be poof, bang, poof, bang, poof.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Yep. And, if the shooting order is plate, knock down, plate, knock down, plate. The sound will be poof, bang, poof, bang, poof.

Larsen.....

 

You need a trip to the cupcake tree!

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Yep. And, if the shooting order is plate, knock down, plate, knock down, plate. The sound will be poof, bang, poof, bang, poof.

I ain't smart enough for that. I'd screw it up. Mine would go bang, poof, bang, poof, bang!

So, all of mine would actually go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang!

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Yep. And, if the shooting order is plate, knock down, plate, knock down, plate. The sound will be poof, bang, poof, bang, poof.

Hey Boggus, I'm not smart enough either. At CA State one year they had a plate rack and a life size bear. I loaded my pistol rounds (108 grain) to shoot the bear and my rifle (140 grain) to shoot the KDs. I mixed up the pistols and shot the plates with the 108 grainers, got all of them down. Then went of the bear with my rifle rounds. Even though my pistol rounds are light, they do the job if the aim is good.

[Blastmaster]

If there is a default you must do then you need to tell out of towners about it. It sounds to me like that club might have a thing for out of towners...

BD,

 

Those clubs do not have hard feelings toward out of towners, just what they do. They do use the 'make safe' phrase on occassion, so they know what it means. As mentioned, if it doesn't say 'make safe', then their default is put it back where it came from.

 

Not many out of towners, but when there are, they get the message.

 

I only mention it in response to your post of not even mentioning 'make safe' in your descriptions and assume everyone knew it. Locals would, but out of towners to your club may not know your intent.

 

It is always good for stage writers to make clear (especially if there are out of towners) in the scenerio reading what their intent/limits are.

 

That' all.

[Blackey Cole]

My problem with shooters choice is unless it's a stand and deliver stage the placement of the shooting stations dictate my order as I almost have to shoot from the LR to the ult as that is the shortest route.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

BD,

 

Those clubs do not have hard feelings toward out of towners, just what they do. They do use the 'make safe' phrase on occassion, so they know what it means. As mentioned, if it doesn't say 'make safe', then their default is put it back where it came from.

 

Not many out of towners, but when there are, they get the message.

 

I only mention it in response to your post of not even mentioning 'make safe' in your descriptions and assume everyone knew it. Locals would, but out of towners to your club may not know your intent.

 

It is always good for stage writers to make clear (especially if there are out of towners) in the scenerio reading what their intent/limits are.

 

That' all.

WOW! Just how unsafe are they that they have to be told to make the guns safe? Winter Range didn't tell you to make guns safe this year. Only a couple of stages where you had to stage vertically because of down range movement, were you told where to restage the guns. EOT, last year the same way.

[Blastmaster]

WOW! Just how unsafe are they that they have to be told to make the guns safe? Winter Range didn't tell you to make guns safe this year. Only a couple of stages where you had to stage vertically because of down range movement, were you told where to restage the guns. EOT, last year the same way.

One meaning of ' make safe' to me is that you can take firearm to next shooting position to restage, or leave it (horizontal/vertical) where you were, park it on the ground, hold it in your hand, reholster or not, or whatever else you can think of. The sky is the limit when you tell me to make it safe, and that is OK too, if that is your intent.

 

What I was referring to was more of where to restage firearm or leave it to what I said above.

[Cowboy Junky]

That's the problem with "make it safe".....it is too vague and means different things to different people. For me it simply means putting the gun down and not breaking any SASS rules in the process.

 

So I could restage it, take it with me etc. IMO it's better to NOT tell the shooter what to do with a gun UNLESS it's a safety issue like moving forward etc then add the specific instructions to the stage. Otherwise let the SASS conventions rule.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

That's the problem with "make it safe".....it is too vague and means different things to different people. For me it simply means putting the gun down and not breaking any SASS rules in the process.

 

So I could restage it, take it with me etc. IMO it's better to NOT tell the shooter what to do with a gun UNLESS it's a safety issue like moving forward etc then add the specific instructions to the stage. Otherwise let the SASS conventions rule.

I use the instruction make safe, and it means exactly what it says. As a match director I have found, that make safe is pretty universally understood. Not telling them what to do generally leads to lots of questions and confusion.

[Wyatt]

Want to stop the use of mousef%&t loads?

Put the targets further out.

 

Then you would have to consider changing your alias

 

Awful Far is available

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Do you tell them to reholster their pistols after each pistol string? Do you tell them every stage to load their pistols with five rounds, hammer down on an empty chamber? Do you have to tell them where to start every stage?

instruction make safe, and it means exactly what it says. As a match director I have found, that make safe is pretty universally understood. Not telling them what to do generally leads to lots of questions and confusion.

Maybe you should have them read the Shooter's Handbook, especially the Stage Conventions, that answers a lot of questions......

[Boggus Deal #64218]

One meaning of ' make safe' to me is that you can take firearm to next shooting position to restage, or leave it (horizontal/vertical) where you were, park it on the ground, hold it in your hand, reholster or not, or whatever else you can think of. The sky is the limit when you tell me to make it safe, and that is OK too, if that is your intent.

 

What I was referring to was more of where to restage firearm or leave it to what I said above.

By the way, I believe, parking it on the ground is not an approved method of making it safe...

[Shooting Bull]

That's the problem with "make it safe".....it is too vague and means different things to different people. For me it simply means putting the gun down and not breaking any SASS rules in the process.

 

So I could restage it, take it with me etc. IMO it's better to NOT tell the shooter what to do with a gun UNLESS it's a safety issue like moving forward etc then add the specific instructions to the stage. Otherwise let the SASS conventions rule.

 

I agree with your definition of "make it safe", just put it somewhere that's safe and in compliance with SASS rules. But I see that as a GOOD thing, not a problem.

 

Writing stages with these types of options built in allows different shooters to shoot stages however best suites their style. This increases variety and in the long run, increases enjoyment of the game. Yep, definitely a good thing.