Shooter's Choice of Which Gun to Start With?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

In order to try and give more choice and make stages more interesting lots of stages are written "shooter may start with any gun." HOWEVER, the very next sentence is invariably, "however, the rifle cannot be LAST." If that is the case why bother? The thread on chronographs provides part of the answer. SASS has gone to a very low power factor of 60 for ammo and virtually no one even enforces that. You hear ammo out of rifles that sounds like an air rifle going off. Some pistols aren't much louder. Maybe if we started actually enforcing the power factor we could actually have shooter's choice of which firearm to start with. Seems like in a lot of places if someone tries to enforce the rules they get accused of being a "rule nazi." If some rules are so unpopular that no one enforces them maybe we ought to just scrap them. (Mild grumbling and frustation. )

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

In order to try and give more choice and make stages more interesting lots of stages are written "shooter may start with any gun." HOWEVER, the very next sentence is invariably, "however, the rifle cannot be first."

Uhm, Larsen, I don't mean to be nitpicky, but don't you mean "rifle cannot be last"?

 

Some rifles do trip the timer, others don't. It would be nice if it was totally shooter's choice sometimes...

[Yul Lose]

We do that a lot around here but rifle can't be last. I've never heard of not allowing the rifle first. I do like being able to choose which guns to shoot.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

RIGHT rifle can't be last. I'll fix that. No wonder I got that P on that last stage!!!

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Larsen, let's get a real minimum power factor set, like Wild Bunch, and go for it! Chrono everyone in the match or test ones that are pushing the minimum.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

do it often in southern FL,,, I haven't missed picking up a rifle yet,,, but then I know how to run a timer..

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

do it often in southern FL,,, I haven't missed picking up a rifle yet,,, but then I know how to run a timer..

Maybe with the thicker air from all that humidity down there in FL the rounds make more noise.

[Grizzly Dave]

Chrono everyone in the match? For a match like Winter Range? When? I suppose you could test only those who are reported to match officials, but this opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Joe Bucket Mouth is beating me, so I'll protest his ammo and maybe having to run thru the chrono will throw him off his game... (with apologies to Joe Bucket Mouth if there is such a person)

 

Now before ya light me up, I'm sure there are ways to handle it that aren't horribly time consuming or disruptive of match flow, but it seems to me to add a level of complexity to match operations for larger matches that may not be necessary.

 

We have a lot of shooter choice, and yes at time rifle can be last and that is stated in the stage instructions, along with a reminder for TOs to be vigilant about recording the last shot. More often it's a case where each gun type has it's own shooting position, and the rifle is in the middle. Haven't seen a serious competitor opt to go end to end and come back to the middle yet.

[Sixgun Seamus]

I write stages for our club with rifle last. (choice) A lot depends on props blocking the sound. I've seen some TO's that don't really know how to hold a timer to properly pick up the sound. We have never had a problem. Like CC says - Know how to run the timer.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Totally agree about knowing how to hold the timer. However, the gun still has to make some noise.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Chrono everyone in the match? For a match like Winter Range? When? I suppose you could test only those who are reported to match officials, but this opens a whole 'nother can of worms. Joe Bucket Mouth is beating me, so I'll protest his ammo and maybe having to run thru the chrono will throw him off his game... (with apologies to Joe Bucket Mouth if there is such a person)

 

Now before ya light me up, I'm sure there are ways to handle it that aren't horribly time consuming or disruptive of match flow, but it seems to me to add a level of complexity to match operations for larger matches that may not be necessary.

 

We have a lot of shooter choice, and yes at time rifle can be last and that is stated in the stage instructions, along with a reminder for TOs to be vigilant about recording the last shot. More often it's a case where each gun type has it's own shooting position, and the rifle is in the middle. Haven't seen a serious competitor opt to go end to end and come back to the middle yet.

I have,,, don't like shooting rifle last because it's not done at big shoots....

[Tom Bullweed]

I see a couple shooters at most local matches, the same shooters everytime, that have gnat fart loads. I have been known to bring them ten empty .22 hulls mixed in thier brass. They get the point but make no effort to bring comliant loads. I worked the unloading some at last week's matches and saw grown men shooting .38 Colt short loads in .357 chambered revolvers.

 

I guess the game means something else to them. For what its worth, they rarely score in the top 10% of shooters, so I do not understand the reason for the popgun loads.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

Sure don't have any problem with any of my BP loads!!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Sure don't have any problem with any of my BP loads!!

Nope! I forgot to put powder in one of my revolvers at WR and the caps made more noise than some of the rifle loads.

[Chicken Scratch]

Being a Gunfighter I like to shoot

My Pistols Last

 

Scratch

[Blastmaster]

timers can pickup low rifle reports,,,, if TO wants it too.

[Red Cent]

Always end with the pistols. Last gun in the holster not on the clock.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Rifle cannot be last has been going on like this for years, we have had some shoots where you went and had your pistols chronograph but not the rifles. Why not the rifles then????

 

Like every thing else it's strictly politics cause who in the heck is going to say something to ^#!@( about there light loads in pistols. Some years back there was a cowboy who drilled out the primer pockets a little larger and used nothing but magnum primers, a little bit powder and the bullet in the pistol loads. Some sounds like a .22 short & others like a bb gun or ate too many beans!

 

Heck lets just keep going and have some darn fun ain't no sense saying anything else about it..

 

Or what will we do again, start all over with the chronograph at the shoots?????????????

 

Mercy when will this crap all end........

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Always end with the pistols. Last gun in the holster not on the clock.

Always end with the double. If a shell sticks, it's not on the clock to clear it.

[Chicken Scratch]

it would not be on the clock to clear it because the timer ends at the last shot

[Blastmaster]

I see a couple shooters at most local matches, the same shooters everytime, that have gnat fart loads. I have been known to bring them ten empty .22 hulls mixed in thier brass. They get the point but make no effort to bring comliant loads. I worked the unloading some at last week's matches and saw grown men shooting .38 Colt short loads in .357 chambered revolvers.

 

I guess the game means something else to them. For what its worth, they rarely score in the top 10% of shooters, so I do not understand the reason for the popgun loads.

Do you realize that a 38 Short Colt case is nothing more than a 9mm case with a rim? Use 9mm reloading data for use in a modern pistol, such as the Ruger Vaquero.

 

If you scoff at 9mm performance, then there is nothing more to say.

[Boggus Deal #64218]

it would not be on the clock to clear it because the timer ends at the last shot

That's my point.......

[Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843]

If given the choice, I always shoot pistols last. As a Double Duelist, I keep both pistols out and do not have to hostler on the clock. Cheers. Hoss

[Will Lynchem]

I completely agree with Boggus Deal! Individual clubs will or will not enforce the rules as they may. But after listening to many Winter Range vets, about how Wild Bunch had a set power factor and they will randomly check and chronograph shooters ammo, I chronographed my loads and made sure the ammo I loaded (all 2,000 rounds) met the required power factors. I think at major sass matches if they did random checks like wild bunch you wouldn't have nearly as many folks using "mouse fart" loads. Hence, maybe,

with the new timers being more sensitive to shot sounds, we can begin to shoot rifles last and mix up the stages even more.

Just a thought, W. L.

[Blastmaster]

which gun to start with?

 

Depends on how the stage scenerio is wrote up.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

LP,

I have had a chrono available at the FL state match for years. Had 2 loads challenged and both passed.....barely. 60 PF is pretty enemic.

 

I doubt enforcing it would have much of an impact.

 

Stan

[Blackey Cole]

I'm for the mininum power factor being enforced. If wb can do it why not CAS? I use to run light loads but had many problems with squibs. Now the first pistol shot usually startles me or it did at WR. But after that I was ok . I found if you want reliable ammo it needs powder.

[Awful Close]

Want to stop the use of mousef%&t loads?

Put the targets further out.

[Assassin]

Perhaps we should use minimum decibels, rather than PF. Timer must pick up rifle report within a certain distance. If it does not pick up the shot it's a penalty.

[357wheelgunner]

I am fairly new to this game and have only been to a dozen or so local monthly matches at three different clubs. Two things have really stood out from my, limited, experience, we'll three things if you count the really great guys at all the clubs, they have all been very helpful and generous with this tenderfoot.

Anyway as to the whole "bang" thing.There sertainly does seem to be a contingent of desperados out on the range whose only goal is to shoot the lightest loads possible. Mostly out of 32's or 38's, er, 357's. I swear that a couple of times they forgot to put any powder in the shells! They barely go "Poof" much less "bang".Have even had the RO call squibs on a couple of them. Another problem is that the Bullet is being chucked out there so slowly that it is barely audible when it hits the target! Got to say it don't seem right. Personally, when I pull the trigger, I like to hear the thunder, feel the buck and see the target dance to the music!

[Blastmaster]

Don't make a rule that you can not monitor,test or enforce because of lack of personnel, equipment, time or desire.

No one test the 60PF now so what makes you think anyone would test for 100PF?

 

Are you as MD want to kick an elderly out of match for underpowered ammo? And you knew they were never in the race for a prize?

 

People would soon learn to carrry different ammo for a) KD, Main match & c) calibration ammo

 

People that shoot the really squibie ammo are not in the leader board list.

 

WB has had some success with PF but only because of small turnouts at matches.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Want to stop the use of mousef%&t loads?

Put the targets further out.

Then you would lose most of your shooters.

[Assassin]

I am fairly new to this game and have only been to a dozen or so local monthly matches at three different clubs. Two things have really stood out from my, limited, experience, we'll three things if you count the really great guys at all the clubs, they have all been very helpful and generous with this tenderfoot.

Anyway as to the whole "bang" thing.There sertainly does seem to be a contingent of desperados out on the range whose only goal is to shoot the lightest loads possible. Mostly out of 32's or 38's, er, 357's. I swear that a couple of times they forgot to put any powder in the shells! They barely go "Poof" much less "bang".Have even had the RO call squibs on a couple of them. Another problem is that the Bullet is being chucked out there so slowly that it is barely audible when it hits the target! Got to say it don't seem right. Personally, when I pull the trigger, I like to hear the thunder, feel the buck and see the target dance to the music!

I see more 45's that are down loaded than the smaller calibers. Cases are just about black with blow by due to low pressure loads and no seal in the chamber. Don't know any really good shooters that down load to the point of not meeting the min.PF. Most want to make sure bullet makes a solid hit on the target.

[J-BAR #18287]

Psychologists and effective personnel supervisors say that rewarding good behavior is much more effective than punishing bad behavior. "Catch them doing something right rather than trying to catch them doing something wrong." Perhaps we should be thinking of ways to reward the "non-mouse fart" shooters.

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

Too much depends on TO to finish with rifle even a rifle that meets WB power factor might not get picked up by a TO that's not holding timer properly or checking to see if timer is picking up shots, as a MD I'm not going to chance it that every TO is going to do it right.

 

AO