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OAL TIME VS RANK POINTS


Fargo Bill, SASS #4942

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Noticed the WR results showed a number of competitors placing lower had faster times than those ahead of them with fewer rank points. Should one try for speed, rank points, accuracy, beauty, style, boot type, gun brand, holster fashion, or is there some other way I can get nearer the top. Just thinking, not trying to open another verbosity contest. I like all winners.

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I just shoot the best I can on each stage and see what happens. Some times rank points help you and some times they don't. Just shoot and enjoy it. If you start trying to max out your speed on each stage you will probably not be happy with the results.

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I suppose one could justify rank points in this manner:

"Look son, being a good shot, being quick with a pistol, that don't do no harm, but it don't mean much next to being cool-headed. A man who will keep his head and not get rattled under fire, like as not, he'll kill ya. It ain't so easy to shoot a man anyhow..."

On the other hand, in the end, that didn't help Little Bill much, did it? :-)
Nor did it save J. B. Books, either. :-)

So, thats my view and, pretty much the other side of the argument regarding rank point scoring. :-)

In a sport glorifying the tumultuous, gritty and violent aspects of the Old West era, many view what might be called the gentrification of the scoring system, more than a bit out of place. Rather like Books showing up in the electrified Carson City, some say. Ymmv. :-)

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My question is, how would you adjust your shooting in a rank vs time match?

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If you know your competition in a rank match you just need to shoot faster than them on each stage. If it is total time you really need to run as fast as you can. The later will often come with the screeching sound of a train about to leave the tracks. :)

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Adjusting your shooting "style" for any match is a recipe for disaster in the making.

There are three authorized scoring systems.

Total Time

Rank Points

Stage Points

 

When shooting Regional Matches and above Rank Points or Stage Points scoring is required.

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I thought this question was only allowed to be asked at the Start of Winter! :D

 

 

Rank Point Scoring rewards Consistency, Total Time rewards Raw Speed. To win, requires Speed, Accuracy, and Consistency. Size of the match, number of stages, etc all come into play.

 

Most importantly......Be Safe and Have Fun!

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Noticed the WR results showed a number of competitors placing lower had faster times than those ahead of them with fewer rank points. Should one try for speed, rank points, accuracy, beauty, style, boot type, gun brand, holster fashion, or is there some other way I can get nearer the top. Just thinking, not trying to open another verbosity contest. I like all winners.

This is just my opinion, but I would say that of those listed, the most important would be beauty, style and gun(s) but not necessarily brand but rather also by beauty and style.

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Let's say that there is are 5% groups of talent within the entire population of shooters at a large match. So that gives us 20 groups of varying talent within that population. It's my opinion that rank point scoring rewards the unremarkable within each of the groups. A hiccup or equipment failure in a single stage could cause the best shooter (fastest overall time) to lose because there's a glitch in his consistentcy. In my opinion, consistency is not what the game is about and is an attempt at "political correctness" to gain acceptance amongst the more elitist shooting organizations, which have a profusion of issues of their own AND which, most CAS participants have no, -zero- interest in.

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With rank points a miss can cost a wide range of ranks depending on the stages. With total time a miss will always be five seconds period. So some shooters may shoot a little differently between those matches. If you notice Matt Black did not win a WR stage but he won the match on rank and was not the fastest. A couple of years ago at EOT he won many stages and was the fastest but lost by rank. I don't know Matt but I do know he is as fast as anybody. So my guess would be he shot this match a little differently to get the desired effect. But I may be wrong. I prefer total time. But if you shoot enough of rank it will probably balance out.

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I could easily show a couple of videos showing the difference in shooting styles for a rank point match vs total time. However I promised my kid no more vids on the sass wire. I will just say that at a certain level it behooves oneself to have a transmission and know when to gear up and gear down. Also an understanding of match speed, fast match speed and exhibition speed is paramount in mastering what it takes to adjust in a rank point vs total time match

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I could easily show a couple of videos showing the difference in shooting styles for a rank point match vs total time. However I promised my kid no more vids on the sass wire. I will just say that at a certain level it behooves oneself to have a transmission and know when to gear up and gear down. Also an understanding of match speed, fast match speed and exhibition speed is paramount in mastering what it takes to adjust in a rank point vs total time match

Congrats to Matt, I also noticed he didn't win any stages but finished very well in all stages. I decided it just proves you need to shoot smart and hold it together for an entire match. Last year at EOT he was the fastest shooter on 6 stages, 2nd fastest on 2 and 3rd fastest on 1 but a broken rifle (if I remember correctly) cost him the match. At the level he and all the top shooters are it seems it takes very little to go from 1st to 20th.

 

Of course I'd be thrilled if I could finish in the Top 100. Congrats again to Matt and all the top finishers.

 

Randy

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At a very large match with a bunch of competition of roughly equal ability, a second can cost you a lot of rank points and a miss can be fatal. In one category at WR, 1.64 seconds over 12 stages was 31 rank points. Some might want to burn down a stage for fastest time, others are going for the long haul. That's part of the beauty of this game, you can play it any way you like.

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I could easily show a couple of videos showing the difference in shooting styles for a rank point match vs total time. However I promised my kid no more vids on the sass wire. I will just say that at a certain level it behooves oneself to have a transmission and know when to gear up and gear down. Also an understanding of match speed, fast match speed and exhibition speed is paramount in mastering what it takes to adjust in a rank point vs total time match

Well put Colt !!

Depending on one's competition (and how close they are) a miss on a TT match can be fatal as are penalties. Rank points = consistency. Depending on the stage a miss can be anywhere from a sting to a major bleed. Having three misses on a reasonably fast stage will cost you dearly. A single miss on a slow stage might not 'cost' as much. A fast stage would be a stand and deliver, one position, no movement on three rather large dump targets. A slow stage would be four position, split pistol or shotgun.

 

In a rank point match it is actually quite common for people to get beat by a good margin on total time but lose to rank points.

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Rank points reward the easyer shooting catigories and punish those that choose to shoot the Orignal Powder with both loose ball and powder and those that stuff cases full of fun...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Obviously winter is still here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mary Ann

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Rank points reward the easyer shooting catigories and punish those that choose to shoot the Orignal Powder with both loose ball and powder and those that stuff cases full of fun...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

BlahBlahBlah!!! I suppose next you'll decry how some heathen managed to place even with a SDO during the match...Well, NYAHHH :P:P:P phooey! Been that guy too !!!

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I still remain convinced that the fastest shooter is the fastest of the fastest. Rank by rank points is a mathematical manipulation that can be applied to any numerical situation. If we keep working at it we will finally get a square bullet to travel faster.

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Anyone of my pards that have seen me shoot fully well knows, understands, and accepts that I simply want to have fun and crack a few jokes while safely "bangin' n clangin"!!

 

Rank points (I'm pretty RANK)...OAL time (my stages can be measure with an hourglass): for me...they are relative only unto myself. I don't practice...so they don't mean too much to me. Will I go to WR or EOT in the future...YUP!! Will I really care about points and time at those events...the answer will still be No; but like I said...those things are relative only unto myself.

 

I really enjoy watching a pard that can shoot well and transition smoothly; and I cheer LOUDLY when I hear the TO say "...and CLEAN" after he yells out the time for that shooter's stage!!

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Just shoot. You can always enjoy or not the final rankings. With rank points it will be a mystery.

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I could easily show a couple of videos showing the difference in shooting styles for a rank point match vs total time. However I promised my kid no more vids on the sass wire. I will just say that at a certain level it behooves oneself to have a transmission and know when to gear up and gear down. Also an understanding of match speed, fast match speed and exhibition speed is paramount in mastering what it takes to adjust in a rank point vs total time match

 

 

+1

 

We can argue about it all we want.

 

IT DOES NOT MATTER.

 

Major matches are GOING TO BE SCORED BY RANK POINTS. PERIOD.

 

They have dug there heels in on this. And we might as well get use to it and learn how to shoot those

type matches.

 

If you don't like it. Don't sign up for those matches that go by rank.

Which means you are going to miss some great matches.

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Rank points reward the easyer shooting catigories and punish those that choose to shoot the Orignal Powder with both loose ball and powder and those that stuff cases full of fun...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Please enlighten me on how this math works? :blink:

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in my opinion, after each stage run, and after each match is done. When you look at back yourself and what you did to perform, at the level you are expecting, and what you really did is the true measurement.

 

Where you placed in the final rankings, regardless of the scoring system used, is not what your measuring.

 

Your looking at yourself and only you know if you are happy with your Shooting, not where you placed.

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Please hang in there as I explain. If you only want to believe that total time is the total answer, you may want to skip.

 

If you want to understand a different view, read on.

 

When I was taking training from the police, they kept stressing being very solid. They were concerned when I drew and fired quit quickly, especially at first.

Several police that shoot SASS shared that their training for "work" differed from SASS training. I had trouble understanding at first, but I think I finally understand.

 

The difference relates to Total Time versus Rank scoring.

 

Generally with police situations it will be very close action. Even then both sides may miss quite a bit under stress. But fumbling and some misses can be fatal. So they have to be very sure when the grab their gun and draw. There is essentially "one chance" to do this right and still go home. That is called "winning."

 

The ranges may vary there as well. If the range (distance of shots) is longer, both parties may miss - so that equals out to some extent. If you can get to cover and possibly fumble there, that may be okay.

 

Now do a close fight. What if you miss or slightly fumble the draw. What does that do to your chances?

==========================================

 

Now look at a SASS match compared to a gun fight.

 

Similarly the distances and sequences will vary.

If it is a very fast stage, it simulates the close encounter often faced in self defense/police situations.

In a total time match, if you fumble a bit on any stage, or miss, you can possibly "turn it on" and make up for it to at least some extent.

But with a fast stage in rank scoring, you must not make a mistake or a LOT of shooters will beat you. So you have to make certain you are in control but shoot "reasonably" fast. As in a real self defense situation, you must win this one. You cannot "make up for it" in the next gunfight - because there may not be another one for you. So that small mistake or miss WILL have a much larger impact - just as in real life.

 

In total time, it is more a "game" since you can turn and burn and somewhat overcome minor mistakes with your speed. Yes, that is fun and I like it too.

 

But at larger matches I also like to see how I did by rank. At one regional match I slightly fumbled my re-holster on one fast stage. Only cost about 1/2 second. For my category, I had the fastest time, but I placed second - due to that re-holster. SO I DID NOT win and the other shooter did. You see that mistake on my part was critical.

 

So hopefully you can better understand the police training. And possibly a little of how to shoot a total time match versus Rank.

 

SUMMARY:

As long as there are a lot of shooters, rank generally works quite well and is a viable (if not perfect) scoring method.

 

Similarly total time is a viable (if not perfect) scoring method for our game.

 

In a real life situation, plan on using the rank score philosophy to increase your chances to survive.

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in my opinion, after each stage run, and after each match is done. When you look at back yourself and what you did to perform, at the level you are expecting, and what you really did is the true measurement.

 

Where you placed in the final rankings, regardless of the scoring system used, is not what your measuring.

 

Your looking at yourself and only you know if you are happy with your Shooting, not where you placed.

When I looked at the rankings and scores at Regional and realized my miss on the last stage cost me beating you for the regional championship I was not happy with myself. :) I agree that you really should be competing with yourself at each match. You can't control anyone else or yourself at times, so just shoot the best you can and let the chips fall where they may. I also agree with Colt that if you want to do well, you have to learn to control yourself to fit the stage, match, etc. that you are shooting in. Part of the fun is just trying to get better at this sport and realizing that some times you have a good day and some times you have a bad day, but every day shooting is a good day.

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NORMALLY - Rank scoring gives the underdog a fighting chance and makes it not all about speed.

 

PERSONALLY - I like either one.

 

...crosscut hardy

Seems to be a common misunderstanding. Tell me who the underdog was in the top ten at WR.
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