Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

OAL TIME VS RANK POINTS


Fargo Bill, SASS #4942

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 100
  • Created
  • Last Reply

in my opinion, after each stage run, and after each match is done. When you look at back yourself and what you did to perform, at the level you are expecting, and what you really did is the true measurement.

 

Where you placed in the final rankings, regardless of the scoring system used, is not what your measuring.

 

Your looking at yourself and only you know if you are happy with your Shooting, not where you placed.

Exactly!

Link to post
Share on other sites

My only problem with rank point scoring is that how I place in my category is directly effected by others shooting different categories. I means I have to compete against all shooters in all categories, not just those in my category.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone competes against each other, then each category position is chosen based off how everyone in that category performed. How is that not fair?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone competes against each other, then each category position is chosen based off how everyone in that category performed. How is that not fair?

VERY few matches that are rank point scored are done that way. Overall rank point determine both your rank and category placement. Otherwise, there will opportunities for a shooter to rank above a fellow in the same category, but finish behind him in the overall... and vice versa.

 

Rank point scoring is simply a method to 'equalize' stages, especially when they vary greatly in complexity, to have the same weight in determining overall finish.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Misses hurt in both methods but they hurt more in rank point matches. In a total time match the miss cost you 5 seconds. But in a pank point match that very same miss can cost you over a hundred rank points OT it might only cost you one rank point. It depends how every one else in the match shot it not just those in your category. So you are shooting FCD well you got two strikes against you for overall before the match is shoot. You have the single hand operating a single action and the lack of visibility from the smoke. You have all the squaw grippers shooting the same pistol twice as fast if not more then you throw in all the bw and gfers who shoot it gfer that is shooting a quarter faster than you as a duelist. Each one of them is a rank point. Unless your especially profiencent with all three guns and have a great run on a stage that they screw up. So if you take the extra second to insure hits you get four seconds per potential miss back but if you do miss one on a stage you drop a few rank points drop two about three times as many and three misses on one stage is hard to win with but you can if your perfect on the other eleven stages or you competition all have a bad stage. I've a friend who is a top shooter when he applies his self. Seen him have three misses on the first day and a couple of single misses the rest of the match and place well how well depends on the compitions.

Link to post
Share on other sites

VERY few matches that are rank point scored are done that way. Overall rank point determine both your rank and category placement. Otherwise, there will opportunities for a shooter to rank above a fellow in the same category, but finish behind him in the overall... and vice versa.

This is what I was trying to say, but did a poor job of it. That is what I get for trying to post on the wire on my phone while my son is in his martial arts class. :) I don't have a problem with scoring being done that way nor do I have a problem with total time matches. Both can bite you in the rear and both can help you out at times.

 

I am just glad I found this sport. I have had a blast doing it and have met many more wonderful people doing this the last three+ years than I did in all the years before.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is that someone shooting two handed smokeless should not effect the standings in say FCGF. In Rank points it does, in total time it does not. If I win or loose in my category I want it to be because I beat or lost to another person in my category, not because of how someone in another category did.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't quite get it. Can you dumb it down a bit for me. How would rank points affect me as a gunfighter versus time? Let's pretend that there are 20 Gunfighters and I would probably end up around 15-17th place time wise. How would that be different with rank points? Thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I looked at the rankings and scores at Regional and realized my miss on the last stage cost me beating you for the regional championship I was not happy with myself. :) I agree that you really should be competing with yourself at each match. You can't control anyone else or yourself at times, so just shoot the best you can and let the chips fall where they may. I also agree with Colt that if you want to do well, you have to learn to control yourself to fit the stage, match, etc. that you are shooting in. Part of the fun is just trying to get better at this sport and realizing that some times you have a good day and some times you have a bad day, but every day shooting is a good day.

Hello there CS Brady...I know that feeling. At that shoot, the very last stage i had my only miss, also. But, i had shot a great match for me. I was not going to allow that miss to darken my performance. Badlands Bar 3, had been an extremely tough place for me to shoot. So , when i shot 5-6 great stages and 4 good ones, well... i was pleased with me. The final outcome was just sweet honey Added on top.

 

OkD

Link to post
Share on other sites

Looked at the top 20 Pards on Winter Range 2015 overall scores.

 

IF the match was TT scored there would be 7 position changes. 35% changed who were faster with TT.

 

Looked at the top 5 Pards in the 4 Holy Black categories and there would be 2 position changes, if TT was the scoring. 10% who were faster with TT.

 

Lesson Learned?

 

Just another reason to shoot Holy Black!!!!

 

Just sayin'

 

AR

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't quite get it. Can you dumb it down a bit for me. How would rank points affect me as a gunfighter versus time? Let's pretend that there are 20 Gunfighters and I would probably end up around 15-17th place time wise. How would that be different with rank points? Thanks.

Howdy BighipIron.

 

I'll try to give an example the best I know how, based on my understanding of your question.

 

Lets say YOU and ME are the best GFer's and shooters at the match today.

 

And, let say its a 5 stage match.

 

On 4 stages, your time is 20 seconds. On 1 stage, your time is 21 seconds. YOUR Total Time for the match is 101 seconds.

 

On 4 stages, MY time is 21 seconds. On 1 stage, MY time is 20 seconds. MY TT for the match is 104 seconds.

 

YOU WIN on TT.

 

 

NOW, if you and I are the 2 fastest shooters on EVERY stage, YOUR rank is 5 and MY rank is 9.

 

BUT, if there are FOUR COWBOYS that wedge their time between you and me on that stage where I was 20 seconds and you were 21 seconds, then your RANK score for that stage is 6. Which now put your total RANK at 10.

 

In this scenerio, You may have the BEST TT for the MATCH over me by 4 seconds, BUT.....

 

BUT in a RANK SCORE, I win the MATCH and you came in 2nd for our Category because of those 4 Cowboy shooters who had a better time than you on just 1 stage.

 

I hope I explained it like I understand it.... :)

 

And I hope this helps answer your question.

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

My point is that someone shooting two handed smokeless should not effect the standings in say FCGF. In Rank points it does, in total time it does not. If I win or loose in my category I want it to be because I beat or lost to another person in my category, not because of how someone in another category did.

If you look at it slightly differently, every shooter in your category is affected exactly the same way you are by all other shooters. If another FCGF shoots slower on than you on a stage, they get more rank points than you do - if they shoot faster than you they get less, regardless of what any other category shooter does.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at it slightly differently, every shooter in your category is affected exactly the same way you are by all other shooters. If another FCGF shoots slower on than you on a stage, they get more rank points than you do - if they shoot faster than you they get less, regardless of what any other category shooter does.

 

 

+1

 

 

We can argue the merits of TT all we want.

 

But they have made it clear. This is one thing they are not going to change.

 

So you better learn how to shoot a Rank point match.

 

Because that is what the major matches are going to be. And that is not going to change.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We all walked to the firing line knowing it was a rankpoint match. I had two misses for the match, and it came at a price. The final miss happened in the saloon. A piece of brass landed on my gun blocking my sights. I had the option of tilting the rifle, and continuing on. Instead, I ran it full throttle. The score I got was deserved. The scoring system wasn't at fault, the choices I made were at fault. Anyway, I had a great time, saw some friends, met some new ones, and watched my wife Tillie Dyes win her category! I have no regrets, and can't wait to take another run at it next year!

Link to post
Share on other sites

You DON"T have to CONTROL yourself when you shoot a Match using RANK point scoring shooting in FCD ,,,, what you need to DO is somehow CONTROL the REST of the SHOOTERS so that Any BOBBLES you make AFFECT YOU less Than Any BOBBLES Made by OTHER SHOOTERS in Your Category ... You Make Your TWO MISSESS at the RIGHT TIME and you can still BEAT that FELLOW SHOOTER that ONLY had One MISS and shot the match FASTER Than YOU did !!!

 

Keep the Smoke going it covers all ...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you look at it slightly differently, every shooter in your category is affected exactly the same way you are by all other shooters. If another FCGF shoots slower on than you on a stage, they get more rank points than you do - if they shoot faster than you they get less, regardless of what any other category shooter does.

That is true over one stage but not over the course of the whole match, See Widder's explanation above, he did a pretty good job explaining it. That is another problem with rank point scoring, a lot of folks don't know how it works and it is really hard to explain it to them

 

Yes, rank point scoring will be used at regional and above matches. No that isn't going to change. Thankfully a lot of clubs and state matches use Total Time. Is the type of scoring used going to effect which matches I shoot...NO, is it going to effect me having fun shooting and enjoying the folks I shoot with ....NO Have I benefited in the standings by rank points...Yes, have I been hurt in the standings by rank points.....yes. I just prefer my placement within the category to be based on MY performance and the others in my category, not on what shooters in other categories are doing. If you don't believe others outside of your category are affecting your standings in your category then you don't understand rank points scoring.

Link to post
Share on other sites

That is true over one stage but not over the course of the whole match, See Widder's explanation above, he did a pretty good job explaining it. That is another problem with rank point scoring, a lot of folks don't know how it works and it is really hard to explain it to them

 

 

Yep - if you're going to have a miss, you'd better do it on the right stage ! :blink: :blink: :D :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

That is true over one stage but not over the course of the whole match, See Widder's explanation above, he did a pretty good job explaining it. That is another problem with rank point scoring, a lot of folks don't know how it works and it is really hard to explain it to them

 

Yes, rank point scoring will be used at regional and above matches. No that isn't going to change. Thankfully a lot of clubs and state matches use Total Time. Is the type of scoring used going to effect which matches I shoot...NO, is it going to effect me having fun shooting and enjoying the folks I shoot with ....NO Have I benefited in the standings by rank points...Yes, have I been hurt in the standings by rank points.....yes. I just prefer my placement within the category to be based on MY performance and the others in my category, not on what shooters in other categories are doing. If you don't believe others outside of your category are affecting your standings in your category then you don't understand rank points scoring.

 

Most around here still just use Rank.

Might as well get use to it at monthly's if you are going to be scored that

way at the big ones.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Howdy BighipIron.

 

I'll try to give an example the best I know how, based on my understanding of your question.

 

Lets say YOU and ME are the best GFer's and shooters at the match today.

 

And, let say its a 5 stage match.

 

On 4 stages, your time is 20 seconds. On 1 stage, your time is 21 seconds. YOUR Total Time for the match is 101 seconds.

 

On 4 stages, MY time is 21 seconds. On 1 stage, MY time is 20 seconds. MY TT for the match is 104 seconds.

 

YOU WIN on TT.

 

 

NOW, if you and I are the 2 fastest shooters on EVERY stage, YOUR rank is 5 and MY rank is 9.

 

BUT, if there are FOUR COWBOYS that wedge their time between you and me on that stage where I was 20 seconds and you were 21 seconds, then your RANK score for that stage is 6. Which now put your total RANK at 10.

 

In this scenerio, You may have the BEST TT for the MATCH over me by 4 seconds, BUT.....

 

BUT in a RANK SCORE, I win the MATCH and you came in 2nd for our Category because of those 4 Cowboy shooters who had a better time than you on just 1 stage.

 

I hope I explained it like I understand it.... :)

 

And I hope this helps answer your question.

 

 

..........Widder

Sorry Widder, but you lost at 20 second stage. What exactly is that? haha.

 

No that was a great explanation. So basically it doesn't matter how fast you get to first, as long as you get there. If I understand correctly, this kind of scoring is not as affected by a really good run as it is a really bad run. What I mean is that beating everyone in a stage by 4 seconds is the same as beating them by .01 seconds, but losing to someone by 4 seconds could cost several rank points. I haven't run any kind of numbers, but I would suspect that this would affect top shooters more than bottom shooters like myself. I could be wrong though. What I don't understand is how this type of scoring would affect certain categories more than others, as has been stated here. Wouldn't this kind of scoring affect everyone equally?

 

As for the whole notion of "this is the way it is so deal with it" I have to disagree. While I have no dog in this fight since I have neither shot a rank scoring event, nor plan to be in the top shooter ranks for at least another 20 years, there are ways to change things. If enough people don't like it, run for TG and change the rules. Is that not how things are done in this game?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Comments about having all categories included in rank scoring shows that the originator has no idea how rank scoring works. They just want total time. Any scoring of rank within category only would be a total failure unless at a huge match like Winter Range.

 

And remember, in the Old West, folks were only called out according to their OWN category.. !! :wacko::blink:

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

As for the whole notion of "this is the way it is so deal with it" I have to disagree. While I have no dog in this fight since I have neither shot a rank scoring event, nor plan to be in the top shooter ranks for at least another 20 years, there are ways to change things. If enough people don't like it, run for TG and change the rules. Is that not how things are done in this game?

 

 

That's been tried.

People have been complaining about Rank points for 20 years or more.

WB has dug there heels in on this issue.

 

If you really don't like rank point scoring. Don't go to those matches.

Which around here. Means you are not going to be shooting much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

That's been tried.

People have been complaining about Rank points for THIRTY years or more.

WB has dug there heels in on this issue.

 

If you really don't like rank point scoring. Do go to those matches.

Which around here. Means you are not going to be shooting much.

There, fixed that for ya... From personal experience!

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

That's been tried.

People have been complaining about Rank points for 20 years or more.

WB has dug there heels in on this issue.

 

If you really don't like rank point scoring. Do go to those matches.

Which around here. Means you are not going to be shooting much.

I've never shot a rank style match, but the more I think about it, the more I want to. Not that it would help or hurt me either way, but something just seems right about each stage mattering more than the overall time. I mean isn't that a little more cowboy anyway? Surviving each battle as it comes and worrying about the next later rather than how fast you were overall? Anyway, that's all from me because I don't care enough about it on either side and it won't matter in my score for a very long time. Probably longer than the 20 years or more that people have been complaining about it. I just hope the game survives that long. What else am I going to do with myself come retirement?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The original question was more directed at HOW you approach a rank match vs. a total time match.

 

It's been covered pretty well, but it's good to understand a few things:

 

You only have to shoot each stage a little quicker than the competition you are trying to beat, and above all be clean and consistent on the stages so you don't have a train wreck that stacks on the points on any one stage since that will put you out of the running faster than anything.

 

But that strategy doesn't really cover all of it. If you are trying to win your category or even overall it's not as cut and dry as simply shooting consistently at a decent pace. If the competition is very fast or as good as your or better, you are going to have to go all out just like a total time match... because he who shoots faster while staying clean wins.

 

The end result is that at the top end, you are still going to be shooting at or near 100%. The competition may be too fierce to hold anything back. You might make a few different decisions especially if you are miles faster than most of the competition on a particular stage. You can't "bank time" when shooting rank. So if you can do a stage in 14 seconds and that's going to be at or near 1 rank point, doing it in 13 seconds doesn't buy you anything at all later and just dramatically increases risk.

 

None of these things are things you think about during a stage. The pace you shoot a major rank points match at is something you develop in practice and at all the matches you shoot. The goal is to practice and train yourself well, constantly improving transitions and speed and movement so that the time it takes you to shoot a stage clean keeps getting better.

 

The guys at the top like Matt and Cat and the others make it look effortless.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The original question was more directed at HOW you approach a rank match vs. a total time match.

 

It's been covered pretty well, but it's good to understand a few things:

 

You only have to shoot each stage a little quicker than the competition you are trying to beat, and above all be clean and consistent on the stages so you don't have a train wreck that stacks on the points on any one stage since that will put you out of the running faster than anything.

 

But that strategy doesn't really cover all of it. If you are trying to win your category or even overall it's not as cut and dry as simply shooting consistently at a decent pace. If the competition is very fast or as good as your or better, you are going to have to go all out just like a total time match... because he who shoots faster while staying clean wins.

 

The end result is that at the top end, you are still going to be shooting at or near 100%. The competition may be too fierce to hold anything back. You might make a few different decisions especially if you are miles faster than most of the competition on a particular stage. You can't "bank time" when shooting rank. So if you can do a stage in 14 seconds and that's going to be at or near 1 rank point, doing it in 13 seconds doesn't buy you anything at all later and just dramatically increases risk.

 

None of these things are things you think about during a stage. The pace you shoot a major rank points match at is something you develop in practice and at all the matches you shoot. The goal is to practice and train yourself well, constantly improving transitions and speed and movement so that the time it takes you to shoot a stage clean keeps getting better.

 

The guys at the top like Matt and Cat and the others make it look effortless.

 

Okay, I am convinced. Let's do away with timer, all of us shoot, then we will have a spelling contest to decide our rank points. L-E-T'S--M-O-V-E--O-N. Thanks for all of your comments and your thinking. After 25 years of SASS I still love to shoot and time or rank points I will shoot as much as I am able.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If the wire is any indication of spelling ability across the board, then please no spelling contests. Shoots will last days or weeks

Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy solution...... I like total time shoots. I refuse to go and shoot if it is a rank score match. Vote with your money, at some point the folks putting on the match will figure out what the problem is if the numbers decline enough.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy solution...... I like total time shoots. I refuse to go and shoot if it is a rank score match. Vote with your money, at some point the folks putting on the match will figure out what the problem is if the numbers decline enough.

The only one not having any fun is you. Why would anyone let a rule disagreement stop them from having fun?

It's way more fun hootin', hollerin', lyin', tellin' war stories, drinkin' bourbon and smokin' fine tobacco than being pissy at home.

Did ya at least get all your chores done while we shot 1800 rounds in 9 days at Winter Range?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Easy solution...... I like total time shoots. I refuse to go and shoot if it is a rank score match. Vote with your money, at some point the folks putting on the match will figure out what the problem is if the numbers decline enough.

 

BBM: if it were only that simple, it might work.

 

I see by your SASS # that you are 87590. SASS has continued to grow above 100,000+.

 

We are all paying $45 for Annual Dues. I'm not so sure that a few folks refusing to shoot a Rank match will bother anyone in the WB. Matter of fact, there are probably a few Pards who prefer a Rank Match and would refuse a Total Time match.

 

Do you think the WB is gona be bothered with this. After all, they already got your Annual Dues.

 

You're missing out on alot of fun shooting with your Pards, no matter how its scored.

 

Heck, I'd still go shoot even if the match wasn't scored at all.

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a great idea Widder. I can't lose if it ain't scored :)

 

I'm with you though. They could score matches anyway they wanted just as long as I get to shoot a pistol in each hand. The rifle and shotgun are a bonus. Yeehaw.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.