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Misty Moonshine

Rule "change" - Open & Empty

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I suggest you re-read all the posts in this thread and in http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223207 as your statement makes no sense and is incorrect.

That's a little harsh Larsen . I followed that thread and noticed other people sayn what you said but did not see it in the rule . Would you please point out in the new RULE where accidental or on purpose comes into effect . Misty stated that the WB was not comfortable with shooters closing their guns on purpose thus the rule that they must be open when discarded . If I am wrong and making no sense I will be more than happy to recant my statements . Thanks

P.S. not tryn to argue just learning .

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I'm still a little grogged out with some medical stuff. Go back to the first post in this thread. Go to the third paragraph and notice the WB is willing to allow some leeway for "accidental" closing of a long gun. The old rule was simple, if a long gun was closed for ANY reason you had until you fired the next gun to correct the problem or you got an MSV. Since a closed empty gun is not really unsafe it was thought the penalty might be a bit harsh. So at the summit the rule was modified to take into account closed long guns that were closed at the end of the stage after it was to late for the shooter to correct the problem. The rule was essentially that if the shooter opened the gun and it was empty it was a no call. Under the rule as passed, it did not matter how the gun got closed. As Misty notes in her post the WB is uncomfortable with people purposely re-staging closed guns. For example, on a vertical rack a double is at a disadvantage since its footprint is bigger when it is open and many close very easily so double shooters often have to use two hands to re-stage in a vertical rack. Under the rule passed at the summit many shooters would empty the shotgun and then close it to make re-staging easier. Now the WB has modified the rule passed at the summit and injected into the equation "how did the gun get closed?" Once you inject shooter intent and whether it was "accidental" you wind up with inconsistent calls. Hopefully, this makes some sense.

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problem with that Larson, is that when one of my TGs came back from the summit, he said accidental closing was ok only...

 

but it will get fixed, and we'll get to play another day..... most of us...

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Believe me when I say I understand all of what you said and have stated many of the same . But the Rule simply states that the long gun must be open and empty when discarded . As I stated before this is the wording they used to get around people closing their guns on purpose . If we assume (I know ) discarded is when shooter is no longer in contact with gun then it would be impossible to close it on purpose . But this does allow for if I drop my long gun on a table and when it lands it closes then it would still be a no call as long as its empty . Remember I am assuming how they will define "discarded" . By the way I hope you feel better , had some med problems myself recently .

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I suggest you re-read all the posts in this thread and in http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223207 as your statement makes no sense and is incorrect.

If the gun is not open and empty when it is discarded and you don't correct it before firing the next gun you have earned a penalty.

 

The crux of the new rule is the definition of discarded.

 

The double penalty for 1 mistake is what really stinks along with making the TO's job harder.

 

Stan

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problem with that Larson, is that when one of my TGs came back from the summit, he said accidental closing was ok only...

 

but it will get fixed, and we'll get to play another day..... most of us...

Within a couple of days of the summit the ROC posted on the wire explaining the rule, it was implemented and applied without regard to how the gun got closed. So, hopefully, your TG's confusion was corrected relatively quickly. The whole point of these many threads and posts is what was passed at the summit is no longer the rule and we are all looking for clarification. I still believe the easiest solution right now is to abandon the "new" new rule and simply go back to the pre-summit rule.

 

Whatever is decided we will simply adapt and try to implement it. The main thing that gives be heartburn is the number of people, including at least one multi-time World Champion, that have stated they will simply construe all closed actions as having been accidental. This puts the TOs in a real conundrum. If I am trying to apply the new rule on my posse and two or three other posse marshals are trying to ignore it, my posse is at a disadvantage. We in good faith should try to avoid situations where a large penalty, and one that can easily make the difference between winning and losing, is based on a very large dose of subjectively. The rules need to be as black and white as possible.

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I still believe the easiest solution right now is to abandon the "new" new rule and simply go back to the pre-summit rule.

+1

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+1

+2

 

Nawlins

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QUESTION:

 

with the biggest match of the year on the horizon...EOT..., can the Match Director arbitrarily declare the 'Pre-Summit' rule will be in effect during EOT and not the 'new' new rule?

 

 

..........Widder

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Stan;



As I understand,



“Discarded” is the Result of the act “discard”.



“Discarding” is the process to accomplish the act “discard”



Based on these definitions, the long gun must leave the shooter’s hand(s) open and empty in the revised New Rule.



We are NOT going to provide for discarding a long gun to a vertical prop in our Matches.



Any horizontal discarded long gun found closed at the end of a stage will be examined per the Rule and any penalties applied, as intent cannot be determined.



This is our policy until the New Rule is modified or eliminated, then we will adjust.



Again, I agree with Allie’s statement above.

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They will get it straightened out, I have full faith in the ROC and the WB to get er dun!! once it is ironed out, it will be ok, after all, in all reality this is a really small thing, considering...

^ this.

 

GG

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Within a couple of days of the summit the ROC posted on the wire explaining the rule, it was implemented and applied without regard to how the gun got closed. So, hopefully, your TG's confusion was corrected relatively quickly. The whole point of these many threads and posts is what was passed at the summit is no longer the rule and we are all looking for clarification. I still believe the easiest solution right now is to abandon the "new" new rule and simply go back to the pre-summit rule.

 

Whatever is decided we will simply adapt and try to implement it. The main thing that gives be heartburn is the number of people, including at least one multi-time World Champion, that have stated they will simply construe all closed actions as having been accidental. This puts the TOs in a real conundrum. If I am trying to apply the new rule on my posse and two or three other posse marshals are trying to ignore it, my posse is at a disadvantage. We in good faith should try to avoid situations where a large penalty, and one that can easily make the difference between winning and losing, is based on a very large dose of subjectively. The rules need to be as black and white as possible.

L,

My personal opinion, being worth little on this subject, is to leave as it was post summit since I feel many, especially those who have been shooting numerous matches since 1/1/2014 (specifically WR), have this set in their "thought process". That includes PMs such as myself from WR. Guess it is just the way I see things, but I though the post summit rule was a step forward in rule revamps, certainly a help for TOs.. I suppose I expected to much and got excited to soon.

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Misty; No problem here :)

As a T.O. my eyes are on the shooter and gun/guns. I know exactly how the gun was put down and condition it was when re-staged. Ifen somehow closed after re-staging I know it was open when it was re-staged. Oh yea, that was a period. I'll T.O. for you anytime :wub::D

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L,

My personal opinion, being worth little on this subject, is to leave as it was post summit since I feel many, especially those who have been shooting numerous matches since 1/1/2014 (specifically WR), have this set in their "thought process". That includes PMs such as myself from WR.

Guess it is just the way I see things, but I thought the post summit rule was a step forward in rule revamps, certainly a help for TOs..

I suppose I expected to much and got excited to soon.

 

Many others share those opinions and thoughts...unfortunately, we are not allowed that as option at this point in the debate.

 

Unfortunately, the "silent minority" remained so until the final edits had been submitted to bring all of the verbiage in the rulebook(s) in line with what had previously been clarified and codified up to that point.

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I'm really surprised at how many folks are doing this, (at least according to the wire). It seems that the longer these threads get, the more folks we find who's game is totally dependent upon closing the action. My goodness... they really seem to believe that it saves a game breaking amount of time...Of course, it wasn't necessary for the first 30 yrs, but over the last few months it seems to have become a real necessity for some. This statement is sorrowful ".....including at least one multi-time World Champion, that have stated they will simply construe all closed actions as having been accidental.". That is truly sad... I remember when our world champions were among the most likely to follow the rules, and would certainly not publicly encourage others to not follow them. As for subjectivity, it is NOT difficult to see if the shooter opened the action and put it down in that state... we've done it since day one. If the shooter did put it down open ... then there is no problem or need to call the shooter back... if the gun turns up closed AT THE END OF THE STAGE... assuming that it is empty, then there is no call. This is a MUCH less subjective rule than the breaking of the 170 when re-holstering. All that said... I too hope that this mess is straighten out soon.

 

Snakebite

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Fellow SASS Members:

 

Over the past month, several issues have highlighted the difference between "intent" and what is actually "legal" under SASS competition rules. Vague, unclear rules can only lead to unhappy competitors- and so we (The Wild Bunch & The RO Committee) all have a goal to make our rules as accurate and "air-tight" as possible.

 

The Wild Bunch's understanding is the Territorial Governors voted to give "some forgiveness" in the case a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty. The Handbook and RO documents published after the Summit in January reflect this understanding . and (dare I say) intent.

 

Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such.

 

...

 

 

... All that said... I too hope that this mess is straighten out soon.

 

Snakebite

 

Hi Folks,

 

Am I correct in assuming that Misty has posted the final word on the rule?

 

If so, why are we, myself included, still discussing it and why are folks still hoping to straighten out the mess? I stopped and thought about Misty's post some more.

 

Is it that some shooters want to open, empty, then close their long guns? If so and it seems to be repeatedly happening, it is not that rare exception Misty mentioned. Warn once (like "finger" in WB) then penalize them, if it happens again.

 

Remaining questions I have are as follow along with what I "think" the answer could be.

If the gun is closed when it leaves the shooters hands, does the TO call him/her back to open it? If it is empty, should the shooter get a reshoot? After additional consideration from reading this discussion, I would say no as it didn't meet the discarded open and empty requirement.

If the TO and counters did not see the condition when the gun left he shooters hands, I think we must assume it happened after leaving hands (no MSV if empty), unless it is a repeated action (MSV even though empty).

 

Is my understanding correct? Or are answers to my questions still pending?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Remember how long and detailed the dropped round rule got when an attempt was made allow people setting down rounds? I fear that the same will happen here before it is made fully clear to all. Once that happens, I think we will have inconsistent applications as people may only remember parts of the rule.

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I'm really surprised at how many folks are doing this, (at least according to the wire). It seems that the longer these threads get, the more folks we find who's game is totally dependent upon closing the action. My goodness... they really seem to believe that it saves a game breaking amount of time...Of course, it wasn't necessary for the first 30 yrs, but over the last few months it seems to have become a real necessity for some. This statement is sorrowful ".....including at least one multi-time World Champion, that have stated they will simply construe all closed actions as having been accidental.". That is truly sad... I remember when our world champions were among the most likely to follow the rules, and would certainly not publicly encourage others to not follow them. As for subjectivity, it is NOT difficult to see if the shooter opened the action and put it down in that state... we've done it since day one. If the shooter did put it down open ... then there is no problem or need to call the shooter back... if the gun turns up closed AT THE END OF THE STAGE... assuming that it is empty, then there is no call. This is a MUCH less subjective rule than the breaking of the 170 when re-holstering. All that said... I too hope that this mess is straighten out soon.

 

Snakebite

I think you have sort of "the perfect storm". Shooters are upset because most liked the new rule, especially TOs. I think a lot of double shooters felt the new rule allowed them to be on an equal footing with 97 shooters on stages with vertical staging. TGs are upset as it appears the rule that they passed with over an 80% vote is being "overturned". Remember this whole affair started because folks could not agree on what constituted an open or closed action. The RO committee appears to be equally upset. Everyone seems to think the rules posted in the June Handbooks are far worse to use than our old rules and the Feb Handbook rules. The new June rules appear to impose more penalties for a closed action than our original rule. The new June rules appear to require the TO to determine shooters intent. The whole affair seems to have rocked the trust in the rule making prcess/system. Imagine the TG that now has to explain to his club that the rule they voted on, the rule passed by the TGs, the rule they have been briefed on and used since the first of the year has been dramatically changed just before EOT because of a CC article. Remember most of them never read the Wire and fewer the CC since it changed to digital only format only.

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Is my understanding correct? Or are answers to my questions still pending?

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

 

 

Answers are still pending. Misty stated a one word answer which was "no" BUT did not follow up with a definition of "discarded". That seems to be the crux of the problem. Is it "discarded" or "discarding" when you lay the rifle down? Is it "discarded" when it leaves your hand and if so, how in the world does the lever close on it's own? SOMEONE needs to clarify and they need to do it SOON. That would stop all this back and forth.

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Depends on the definition of "discarded" and the TO involved.

That's comforting!! I want the TO who says no call.

Ringer

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That's comforting!! I want the TO who says no call.

Ringer

 

:lol::lol::lol:

 

Me Too!

 

 

..........Widder

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That's comforting!! I want the TO who says no call.

Ringer

I was TO today and called 2 no calls.

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I was TO today and called 2 no calls.

As long as the gun is empty it is better than calling a shooter back to open a lever that isn't really closed.

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We wouldn't want it to be easy. So let's change IT !! Hells Comin

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+2, but I'm the one usually stuck running the clock. :wacko:

yep...me, Non Stop and Tame Bill best be thinking New, new rule for EOT....what ever it is. I'm still confused. but suspect TA will have wise words for us PMs. plus we have TG meeting on Tuesday.

 

Drive safe all.

 

bb

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I was TO today and called 2 no calls.

+1 at Hell On Wheels today. Had one SxS and one '73. No call... don't give me this BS that you have a prayer of divining intent. There is no chance that's ever going to get called or stand up to a review.

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I sure would like to be at the EOT Safety Meeting this year for more than one reason, but what they are going to tell the shooters how the TO's are to handle this issue is among them.

 

I have a serious question about "dropping' the rifle or shotgun and it closing after it has left the shooter's hand. I only had to do it once, but, I cautioned a shooter about dropping a rifle from too far away from the prop because he was flirting with "loosing control of the gun". Your opinions?

 

I do have a language question though: If one discards a rifle; does one "card" a rifle? :o

 

KCD

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I sure would like to be at the EOT Safety Meeting this year for more than one reason, but what they are going to tell the shooters how the TO's are to handle this issue is among them.

Good question...no answer until "we" get down there and do some "face-to-face" discussing of the issue is my thinking on this one...as one of the Range Masters for the event.

 

I have a serious question about "dropping' the rifle or shotgun and it closing after it has left the shooter's hand. I only had to do it once, but, I cautioned a shooter about dropping a rifle from too far away from the prop because he was flirting with "loosing control of the gun".

Your opinions?

Don't do that ("throw" the gun at the prop)...best practice, IMO, is to SET IT DOWN such that it remains OPEN.

 

I do have a language question though: If one discards a rifle; does one "card" a rifle? :o

from 1590s, literally "to throw a card away" ... in this case, the "verb" is the entire combination word using the noun "card" (as in poker card)

... otherwise, ask the rifle for ID as when an age check is required for selling restricted goods (e.g. alcoholic beverages)

I actually got "carded" for ammo a few years ago...convinced the clerk that the beard was WHITE, not BLOND and she let me buy a case of 12ga ammo that was on sale. ;)

 

Kindly thanked her and recommended an appointment with my brother (the optometrist)

 

 

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luv ya PW!!! that was good, yu tuu Knobbie

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One of the most intelligent, informative, and insightful answers ever presented on the wire! Next time I run into a rifle I don't know, it better have I.D. with him. :P



Thanks, PW



KCD


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Yer welcome, KCD!

 

;)

 

...the meds have kicked in...off to the RANGE for the day.

 

(when I come back, I fully expect to see some comments about handling firearms while on drugs...and I'll address them upon my return)

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - Well that sure went off in the wrong way.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - Well that sure went off in the wrong way.

One pill makes you larger

And one pill makes you small
And the pills the doctor gives you make you calm, lower your BP.... :unsure:
Hope you have a great day!

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