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Misty Moonshine

Rule "change" - Open & Empty

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Fellow SASS Members:

 

Over the past month, several issues have highlighted the difference between "intent" and what is actually "legal" under SASS competition rules. Vague, unclear rules can only lead to unhappy competitors- and so we (The Wild Bunch & The RO Committee) all have a goal to make our rules as accurate and "air-tight" as possible.

 

The Wild Bunch's understanding is the Territorial Governors voted to give "some forgiveness" in the case a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty. The Handbook and RO documents published after the Summit in January reflect this understanding . and (dare I say) intent.

 

Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such.

 

It is my sincere hope that we can all "put this to bed" and move forward as a positive, collective representation of SASS. The final text/rule is reflected in the most recent version of the handbooks and RO documents.

 

Thank you all for your patience and understanding.

 

On behalf of The Wild Bunch & the SASS RO Committee,

 

Misty Moonshine

 

 

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Thanks for the clarification Misty.

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Misty, IMHO, the Wild Bunch lost a lot of respect among shooters, TGs, and others (including a lot of staunch SASS and WB supporters) in how this was handled. Waiting for the next rule cycle, would have been prudent. If the Wild Bunch disagreed with the TG discussions at the Convention and vote or the RO implementation on the closed gun rule there was plenty of time to make their desires known and change it before the Feb handbooks were published. The Wild Bunch is clearly a participant in all TG meetings and the RO committee. If the Wild Bunch meant the rule to be for accidental closings only, just inserting the word accidental in the new rule or making it clear in the RO implementation back at the beginning of the year. Subsequent to that, if the Wild Bunch felt a change was needed there are well know paths for making a rule change and the one used looks like a "play my game by my rules or I will take the ball away and go home". We had been living with the new rule for almost 6 months with no issues, so why not another 6 months. What we have now is a hasty rewrite of the rules before EOT that is full of issues that will make it a lot harder for the TO to do a fair job for all shooters. Even you, just a couple weeks ago made it abundantly clear that the rules we had in place would be those used for EOT and no new rules would result as a result of the CC editorial.

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Misty Moonshine you just may save SSAS

Hope to see you at CAC , it sure as hell well not be EOT

BE SAFE

STAY OUT OF HIGH WATER AND LOW BRIDGES

 

Joe Boy

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It is my sincere hope that we can all "put this to bed" and move forward as a positive, collective representation of SASS.

 

 

 

Oh boy do I wish you luck with that. I REALLY do. As I've said before, sure glad you're there brining some sanity to this game. :)

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Misty, well stated, that is how I understood the TG's intention was. It was not to allow guns restaged closed, it was if the gun closed as it was restaged, I am glad we have not had to broach the gun restaged closed intentionally controversy yet.

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Fellow SASS Members:

 

Over the past month, several issues have highlighted the difference between "intent" and what is actually "legal" under SASS competition rules. Vague, unclear rules can only lead to unhappy competitors- and so we (The Wild Bunch & The RO Committee) all have a goal to make our rules as accurate and "air-tight" as possible.

 

The Wild Bunch's understanding is the Territorial Governors voted to give "some forgiveness" in the case a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty. The Handbook and RO documents published after the Summit in January reflect this understanding . and (dare I say) intent.

 

Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such.

 

It is my sincere hope that we can all "put this to bed" and move forward as a positive, collective representation of SASS. The final text/rule is reflected in the most recent version of the handbooks and RO documents.

 

Thank you all for your patience and understanding.

 

On behalf of The Wild Bunch & the SASS RO Committee,

 

Misty Moonshine

 

 

Fine with me - thanks :)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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The newly rewritten rule will require RO's to 'guess' intent. The previous version of this rule did not. I liked the old version better.

 

That said, I appreciate you making this clarification Misty. Proves that the top of the mountain is not always the most comfortable place to sit.

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"The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone."




With all due respect, this doesn't clarify anything. How can a TO judge whether a shotgun closed accidentally or was intentionally closed?

It seems to me the best way to right this rule is that "...the action of a long gun MUST be open..." whether it closes intentionally or accidently. How did we get here anyway?

Fillmore

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Erase everything that has been said in the last 6/7 months regarding open and empty.......

 

The word ACCIDENTAL does not appear anywhere as an exemption to what is written now.

It is the shooters responsibility to see that the action is open and empty before moving to the next gun.

If the long gun is not OPEN before you shoot you next gun then you earn a MSV

If the long gun is not EMPTY before you shoot your next gun then you earn an additional MSV (If it is a live round in the chamber then you get upgraded to a SDQ)

 

There may be some local range exemption in the use of scabbards or tubes.

The only NO CALL I see is if the gun is re-staged open and empty and something beyond the shooters control intervenes to cause the action to close.

 

The TO should now re-institute the former procedure of calling the shooter back to open the action

The TO should now carefully examine a closed long gun (at the end of the stage) to determine Open/Closed status before allowing the shooter to show clear.

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"The only NO CALL I see is if the gun is re-staged open and empty and something beyond the shooters control intervenes to cause the action to close." HUH?

 

NEGATIVE, I Don't see that at all.

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Erase everything that has been said in the last 6/7 months regarding open and empty.......

 

The word ACCIDENTAL does not appear anywhere as an exemption to what is written now.

If the long gun is not OPEN before you shoot you next gun then you earn a MSV

If the long gun is not EMPTY before you shoot your next gun then you earn an additional MSV (If it is a live round in the chamber then you get upgraded to a SDQ)

 

There may be some local range exemption in the use of scabbards or tubes.

The only NO CALL I see is if the gun is re-staged open and empty and something beyond the shooters control intervenes to cause the action to close.

The TO should now re-institute the former procedure of calling the shooter back to open the action

The TO should now carefully examine a closed long gun (at the end of the stage) to determine Open/Closed status before allowing the shooter to show clear.

:wacko: Really????

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:wacko: Really????

Yup! Really!!!!!!!!!!

Shooters handbook page 17

Minor safety infractions occurring during a course of fire that do not directly endanger persons

result in a ten-second penalty being added to the shooter’s time per occurrence for that stage.

“Minor” safety infractions are occurrences such as failure to open a long gun’s action at the

conclusion of a shooting string or failure to return a handgun to its holster at the conclusion of a

shooting string.

Shooters handbook page 23

Long guns will be discarded with their actions open and the magazines/barrels empty at the

conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the

firearm is not discarded “open and empty.” This condition may be corrected prior to the next

round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it

leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table.

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Yup! Really!!!!!!!!!!

Shooters handbook page 17

Minor safety infractions occurring during a course of fire that do not directly endanger persons

result in a ten-second penalty being added to the shooter’s time per occurrence for that stage.

“Minor” safety infractions are occurrences such as failure to open a long gun’s action at the

conclusion of a shooting string or failure to return a handgun to its holster at the conclusion of a

shooting string.

Shooters handbook page 23

Long guns will be discarded with their actions open and the magazines/barrels empty at the

conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the

firearm is not discarded “open and empty.” This condition may be corrected prior to the next

round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it

leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table.

Except you left out this bit, "If the action of a long gun closes after being

discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear

to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other

than the competitor may handle the gun in question."

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If I finish shooting my rifle, open the lever to throw out the last empty case, set it down with the lever open, then it closes from hitting the table or some other reason other than me closing it, will I receive a penalty?

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If I finish shooting my rifle, open the lever to throw out the last empty case, set it down with the lever open, then it closes from hitting the table or some other reason other than me closing it, will I receive a penalty?

 

No

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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If I finish shooting my rifle, open the lever to throw out the last empty case, set it down with the lever open, then it closes from hitting the table or some other reason other than me closing it, will I receive a penalty?

You might.

 

Fillmore

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If I finish shooting my rifle, open the lever to throw out the last empty case, set it down with the lever open, then it closes from hitting the table or some other reason other than me closing it, will I receive a penalty?

Depends on the definition of "discarded" and the TO involved.

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If I finish shooting my rifle, open the lever to throw out the last empty case, set it down with the lever open, then it closes from hitting the table or some other reason other than me closing it, will I receive a penalty?

If you threw the gun down without regard for caution then most likely would receive a penalty for the action being closed then the answer is YES. (See Glossary for CLOSED ACTION). A lever will not close from gravity when re-staged horizontally on a table/prop. I am sure there will be an in depth definition of the word DISCARDED soon.........

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If I finish shooting my rifle, open the lever to throw out the last empty case, set it down with the lever open, then it closes from hitting the table or some other reason other than me closing it, will I receive a penalty?

No.

 

MM

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If you threw the gun down without regard for caution then most likely would receive a penalty for the action being closed then the answer is YES. (See Glossary for CLOSED ACTION). A lever will not close from gravity when re-staged horizontally on a table/prop. I am sure there will be an in depth definition of the word DISCARDED soon.........

 

He stated 'set it down' (as in a normal engage and disengage motion we do on the stage) - so I don't think the 'threw the gun down without regard to safety' is subject in this case. Amazed at what folks like to read into things.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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I don't know about the rest of you but I have certainly seen shooters basically throwing rifles and shotguns down or simply dropping them at the end of their shooting string. This is routinely done in order to shave time off their stage. I've seen long guns bounce back in the air to land in the dirt because of this practice. I'm glad for the clarification of the handbook to penalize shooters handling firearms in a unsafe manner, maybe if they pick up a few 5 second penalties they will not take a chance to just save a few tenths of a second. I have on several occasions ended up looking down the wrong end of a firearm after it hits the ground. :angry::angry:

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I don't know about the rest of you but I have certainly seen shooters basically throwing rifles and shotguns down or simply dropping them at the end of their shooting string. This is routinely done in order to shave time off their stage. I've seen long guns bounce back in the air to land in the dirt because of this practice. I'm glad for the clarification of the handbook to penalize shooters handling firearms in a unsafe manner, maybe if they pick up a few 5 second penalties they will not take a chance to just save a few tenths of a second. I have on several occasions ended up looking down the wrong end of a firearm after it hits the ground. :angry::angry:

5 second penalties are typically given for misses and unfired rounds

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if they get a penalty for unsafe gun handling, that should be a SDQ....

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No.

 

MM

 

Wait a minute. I have not "discarded" my rifle until my hand has left it, so if I put my rifle down and the lever closes while I am still in contact with the rifle that's a MSV if I don't correct it. The act of "discarding" and "discarded" are two different things.

 

This is where we need a clarification please.

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Thank you Misty and others for addressing my question. I won't lay my rifle down like it was a newborn, but I won't throw it down hard enough for it to bounce either. This new change has not changed the way I do anything with my rifle except it lets me do what I have always done without worry of the lever closing. I had mine close on me in Mississippi last year at rabbit ridge and it added 6 seconds to my time. (My wife had it on video, so I could time it) I was all the way to where the pistols had to be shot before the TO could get my attention and get me to put it in reverse. :). I have thought about that every stage since then, so I was happy when the change occurred.

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Wait a minute. I have not "discarded" my rifle until my hand has left it, so if I put my rifle down and the lever closes while I am still in contact with the rifle that's a MSV if I don't correct it. The act of "discarding" and "discarded" are two different things.

 

This is where we need a clarification please.

That really is the question to all of this......when is the long gun "discarded"?

 

Stan

 

PS....one thing for sure.......leaving an empty or live round in a long gun is going to be a KILLER......2 minor safeties at best! unless we get some clarification otherwise......

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That really is the question to all of this......when is the long gun "discarded"?

 

Stan

 

PS....one thing for sure.......leaving an empty or live round in a long gun is going to be a KILLER......2 minor safeties at best! unless we get some clarification otherwise......

You have up and until you shoot your next gun to correct the closed gun with/without empty situation.

A live round in the chamber is a SDQ as soon as it leaves your hand

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You have up and until you shoot your next gun to correct the closed gun with/without empty situation.

A live round in the chamber is a SDQ as soon as it leaves your hand

 

I understand both of those......When is the gun "discarded"?....that is important to know......If the action closes AFTER it was discarded then no penalty as long as the gun is empty.....if it close BEFORE it was discarded and it's not corrected then at a minimum you have 1 MSV.

 

Stan

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The newly rewritten rule will require RO's to 'guess' intent.

 

I'm with you.

Some don't fully know the rules anyhow. How are we supposed to expect them to guess properly?

 

 

I understand both of those......When is the gun "discarded"?....t

 

I'd never discard my rifle. I may sell it.....

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If you by pass the unloading table from the firing line and discard your guns into your cart, you just bought a penalty for not following loading/unloading procedures.

 

If you discard a long gun with a live round in the chamber and the hammer is cocked, you just bought a penalty the moment your hand/fingers left the gun.

 

If you are required to reload x rds into your rifle after shooting the initial string of 10. Lets say the gun is on the table, the action is closed and the hammer is cocked.. you insert cartridge #1 into the magazine, take both hands off to acquire cartridge #2,,,,, uphssss, you just bought a penalty. So, it appears with these three examples, as soon as the firearm leaves your hand or is discarded. Just a view from my saddle.

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If you by pass the unloading table from the firing line and discard your guns into your cart, you just bought a penalty for not following loading/unloading procedures.

 

If you discard a long gun with a live round in the chamber and the hammer is cocked, you just bought a penalty the moment your hand/fingers left the gun.

 

If you are required to reload x rds into your rifle after shooting the initial string of 10. Lets say the gun is on the table, the action is closed and the hammer is cocked.. you insert cartridge #1 into the magazine, take both hands off to acquire cartridge #2,,,,, uphssss, you just bought a penalty. So, it appears with these three examples, as soon as the firearm leaves your hand or is discarded. Just a view from my saddle.

I would agree but you and don't really have a say in it now do we..... :blink:

 

Stan

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Misty;

 

At the risk of even you getting upset with me. The Result (activity or condition) desired from a Rule needs to flow directly from the Rule as written. Not as interpreted by someone. The language of this Rule still needs work. While you can declare the Rule as currently written is Final, along with an interpretation, that is not the best result. A little more work could produce a Rule where the desired Result will flow directly from the language of the Rule - without interpretation.

 

We will continue to shoot Matches, have fun and do the best we can with whatever Rules there are - as we always have.

 

Take care

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