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Misty Moonshine

Rule "change" - Open & Empty

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No.

 

MM

Yep.... that is the way I have understood this since the very beginning.

 

Snakebite

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If you threw the gun down without regard for caution then most likely would receive a penalty for the action being closed then the answer is YES. (See Glossary for CLOSED ACTION). A lever will not close from gravity when re-staged horizontally on a table/prop. I am sure there will be an in depth definition of the word DISCARDED soon.........

Help me out here... where are you getting this information about throwing the gun down without regard for caution?

 

Thanks

Snakebite

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Note: Discarded is simply past tense.... as argued in the other thread by me and re-stated here by DiD....

 

To wit: I'd like to know what the heck is wrong with the WBAS rule? In full- page 11

• Safe conditions of shotgun during a course of fire are as follows:

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– Empty of live ammunition, action open

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

• Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

– Action open, round on carrier.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed.

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"If the action of a long gun closes after being

discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear

to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other

than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO-I for further clarification".

 

I agree the term "discarded" could/should be replaced with a more appropriate term, but I don't have a problem understanding or applying this rule on the firing line. It refers to the RO I for further clarification which states the same rule + examples of "what ifs". You could build scenarios and a world of "what ifs" that may happen when a shooter restages or "discards" their long gun but the rule covers the condition of the action in any case. There are many other rules that cover the firearms action regarding ammo and empties ....... After it's all said and done, the shooter is responsible for their actions and any unsafe firearm handling. Let common sense prevail............

Mink............

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Note: Discarded is simply past tense.... as argued in the other thread by me and re-stated here by DiD....

 

To wit: I'd like to know what the heck is wrong with the WBAS rule? In full- page 11

• Safe conditions of shotgun during a course of fire are as follows:

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– Empty of live ammunition, action open

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

• Safe for movement shotgun in hand only

– Action open, round on carrier.

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed.

Bro King; I'm going to tell you, since you ask "What the heck is wrong with the WBAS rule?"

 

NOT A DAMNED THING! WBAS does NOT have to deal with a room that is half full of %$@!&^* to get anything passed with 67% margin!

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Well, nobody asked but here goes...as I see it.

 

The rule as approved was that a closed long gun was a no-call if found to be empty when checked afterward. Someone...did not approve of the loophole that seemed to allow long guns to be intentionally re-closed for vertical re-staging and the re-write in version 19.6 appeared. This effort to squelch the intentional closing brought subjectivity back into the mix with the TO having to decide if the action was intentional or accidental.

 

I like the new rule as initially implemented. No one "opens" a revolver before re-holstering. Rifles are staged closed and we know that they are loaded! But, they are staged in a safe direction. DUH! When we put them down, open or closed, they should be put down in a muzzle-safe manner. There are already rules to cover that.

 

The only way I see this working is to either go back to the old rule, "open and empty period" (which has subjectivity also) or do away with this new addition (discarded) and continue like we have for the last couple of months...which by-the-way, has been working great.

 

Just my 4$ worth.

 

Four Bucks

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Well, nobody asked but here goes...as I see it.

 

The rule as approved was that a closed long gun was a no-call if found to be empty when checked afterward. Someone...did not approve of the loophole that seemed to allow long guns to be intentionally re-closed for vertical re-staging and the re-write in version 19.6 appeared. This effort to squelch the intentional closing brought subjectivity back into the mix with the TO having to decide if the action was intentional or accidental.

 

I like the new rule as initially implemented. No one "opens" a revolver before re-holstering. Rifles are staged closed and we know that they are loaded! But, they are staged in a safe direction. DUH! When we put them down, open or closed, they should be put down in a muzzle-safe manner. There are already rules to cover that.

 

The only way I see this working is to either go back to the old rule, "open and empty period" (which has subjectivity also) or do away with this new addition (discarded) and continue like we have for the last couple of months...which by-the-way, has been working great.

 

Just my 4$ worth.

 

Four Bucks

I don't see the TO as having to determine accidentally or on purpose. The gun must be open when discarded , doesn't matter if it closed accidentally while it was still in your possession you must open it before discarding. What the TO will have to see at a fraction of a second is if the shooters hand was still on it when the lever closed. I will tell you for sure that my hand is off the gun before it hits the table. I have never had a gun fall off a prop so I feel this can be done safely.

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SB;

 

Based on your comment "NOT A DAMNED THING! WBAS does NOT have to deal with a room that is half full of %$@!&^* to get anything passed with 67% margin!"

 

What happens when/if SASS goes non-profit? As proposed !

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Fellow SASS Members:

 

Over the past month, several issues have highlighted the difference between "intent" and what is actually "legal" under SASS competition rules. Vague, unclear rules can only lead to unhappy competitors- and so we (The Wild Bunch & The RO Committee) all have a goal to make our rules as accurate and "air-tight" as possible.

 

The Wild Bunch's understanding is the Territorial Governors voted to give "some forgiveness" in the case a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty. The Handbook and RO documents published after the Summit in January reflect this understanding . and (dare I say) intent.

 

Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such.

 

It is my sincere hope that we can all "put this to bed" and move forward as a positive, collective representation of SASS. The final text/rule is reflected in the most recent version of the handbooks and RO documents.

 

Thank you all for your patience and understanding.

 

On behalf of The Wild Bunch & the SASS RO Committee,

 

Misty Moonshine

 

 

Misty

 

I welcome the result which has eventuated, but it cannot fairly be described as a clarification of the rule change. I asked the very question, saying the rule change did not appear to allow a No Call for a gun intentionally closed in a thread started by B.S. Walker on March 11, 2014 and was explicitly told that it did not matter whether the action was closed accidentally or on purpose--by PWB and other Wire experts. The latest is plainly a reversal of the official interpretation we were given in March.

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I would agree but you and don't really have a say in it now do we..... :blink:

 

Stan

Glad we agree and it has already been said (so I don't need a say in something that is already there) in the three examples I gave. However, with the caviot of being able to return to a long gun to make safe (reopen and or make empty) then the discard goes till the next firearm is shot. So, it just depends on what infraction is being assessed to determine when discard has been complete.

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Yup! Really!!!!!!!!!!

Shooters handbook page 17

Minor safety infractions occurring during a course of fire that do not directly endanger persons

result in a ten-second penalty being added to the shooter’s time per occurrence for that stage.

“Minor” safety infractions are occurrences such as failure to open a long gun’s action at the

conclusion of a shooting string or failure to return a handgun to its holster at the conclusion of a

shooting string.

Shooters handbook page 23

Long guns will be discarded with their actions open and the magazines/barrels empty at the

conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the

firearm is not discarded “open and empty.” This condition may be corrected prior to the next

round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it

leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table.

Convenient omission of text...are you trying to be the next PWB???...'cuz ya ain't makin' it...at all...IMHO.

 

;)

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I'm gonna go discard a couple 'o beers ;)

 

J :ph34r: R-E

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SB;

 

Based on your comment "NOT A DAMNED THING! WBAS does NOT have to deal with a room that is half full of %$@!&^* to get anything passed with 67% margin!"

 

What happens when/if SASS goes non-profit? As proposed !

I sure can't answer that question, but I can tell you that what we now have is flawed. I have been involved since day one of the TG system, and long supported it. But it now needs a major overhaul IMO. In today's world there is no reason what-so-ever that a TG Vote can't be taken over the internet, as well as a limited Q&A segment. I would like to see that process streamlined and brought up to date. The next problem is the fact that Ol Joe who represents the Wart Dogs Posse... all 5 of them, gets to cast his vote and cancel out Mighty Mikes vote, who represents over 200 shooters. That has got to change to some sort of a weighted system. The next thing to consider is this. The TGs are the legislative branch, the WB or whom ever becomes the BOD after the change is the Executive branch, and the ROC is the Supreme court. This has got to be a power sharing thing or it will not work. Two of the bodies need to agree on something BEFORE it becomes law. Right now a few TGs who may only represent a very small number of members, can bring a whole movement to a halt! Finally, we know that the vast majority of members just flat don't give a Rats Rump... they just want to go shoot and then go home. That means that a minority of members are going to decide what the rules are. That minority needs to be heard and considered.

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Well, nobody asked but here goes...as I see it.

 

The rule as approved was that a closed long gun was a no-call if found to be empty when checked afterward. Someone...did not approve of the loophole that seemed to allow long guns to be intentionally re-closed for vertical re-staging and the re-write in version 19.6 appeared. This effort to squelch the intentional closing brought subjectivity back into the mix with the TO having to decide if the action was intentional or accidental.

 

I like the new rule as initially implemented. No one "opens" a revolver before re-holstering. Rifles are staged closed and we know that they are loaded! But, they are staged in a safe direction. DUH! When we put them down, open or closed, they should be put down in a muzzle-safe manner. There are already rules to cover that.

 

The only way I see this working is to either go back to the old rule, "open and empty period" (which has subjectivity also) or do away with this new addition (discarded) and continue like we have for the last couple of months...which by-the-way, has been working great.

 

Just my 4$ worth.

 

Four Bucks

 

four bucks,

STOP MAKING SENSE!!

how can we continue to be an angry, confused mob trying to poke the monster with our pitchforks when you fix the problem so easily??

cbj

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Guess I'll be bringing Lawyer Daggitt with me to all the SASS matches I attend in case I needs to keep from hangin in case I screw up on any of the rules interpretations.

 

When did we lose all the "fun" in Cowboy Action Shooting?

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SB;

 

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my question. I agree - what we have evolved to is not working well. The future SASS organization and decision making processes should not simply be a non-profit clone of what we have now.

 

Take care

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I sure can't answer that question, but I can tell you that what we now have is flawed. I have been involved since day one of the TG system, and long supported it. But it now needs a major overhaul IMO. In today's world there is no reason what-so-ever that a TG Vote can't be taken over the internet, as well as a limited Q&A segment. I would like to see that process streamlined and brought up to date. The next problem is the fact that Ol Joe who represents the Wart Dogs Posse... all 5 of them, gets to cast his vote and cancel out Mighty Mikes vote, who represents over 200 shooters. That has got to change to some sort of a weighted system. The next thing to consider is this. The TGs are the legislative branch, the WB or whom ever becomes the BOD after the change is the Executive branch, and the ROC is the Supreme court. This has got to be a power sharing thing or it will not work. Two of the bodies need to agree on something BEFORE it becomes law. Right now a few TGs who may only represent a very small number of members, can bring a whole movement to a halt! Finally, we know that the vast majority of members just flat don't give a Rats Rump... they just want to go shoot and then go home. That means that a minority of members are going to decide what the rules are. That minority needs to be heard and considered.

 

So, one way to solve this is to have a Board of Directors made up of Territorial Governors that represent each Region we have now and NOT every club. That would cut this down to what?....six or seven Regional Governors? Under those guys, you would have State Governors who would report the concerns of each state but that would NOT vote. So the BOD would consider rule changes and undertake the business of the organization based on the information they get from each state they have in their respective Region AND listen to special bodies like the ROC. The whole thing can be done with Skype once a year, once a quarter or for special meetings.

 

This is very much like what USPSA does now. Yes, it insulates "Joe Average" shooter a bit by adding one more layer of bureaucracy but you have a much more manageable and usually committed group of individuals to deal with.

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This is a snap shot of what's wrong with the whole darn country........people have lost their common sense and need everything under the sun in writing.....lol. Let me get this straight, if you put the rifle or shotgun down after you fire it and the action is closed then you and the RO examine the gun after the stage and make the appropriate call. Sounds pretty simple too me.

 

We just sent 24 rounds down range........no one is down there so if a gun is pointed down range "still" with or without a live round in it it's not going to go off by itself......even if it did it pointed safely down range where the other 23 went. If it's NOT pointed in a safe direction we all ready have rules for that and the shooter would be stopped immediately. That's why no one touches a gun with the action closed but the shooter WITH the RO....it gives them time to make it safe and assess the penalties IF there are any.

 

Are these the same folks asking if they can triple tap when it says you can't double tap...........?

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DiD; We did a similar thing with the RO Instructor program, establishing a Regional Chief RO. It gave a much better handle on just what was going on in the field, and it has worked well. But... I don't know what is going to happen with the SASS. I'm sure that there are any number of reasons an organization might move from being a "For Profit" to a "Not for Profit". Could be done for financial purposes, to provide some type of shielding or an insulating factor, or it could be done to get the membership at large to take on a larger part of operating the organization. Any reorganizing would depend upon the reason the change is being made. Giving up Power is not near as easy as giving up responsibility, and it is difficult to keep one and loose the other. The one thing that I know FOR SURE, is that as long as we support one another, we will have the game to play.

 

Snakebite

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Well, nobody asked but here goes...as I see it.

 

The rule as approved was that a closed long gun was a no-call if found to be empty when checked afterward. Someone...did not approve of the loophole that seemed to allow long guns to be intentionally re-closed for vertical re-staging and the re-write in version 19.6 appeared. This effort to squelch the intentional closing brought subjectivity back into the mix with the TO having to decide if the action was intentional or accidental.

 

I like the new rule as initially implemented. No one "opens" a revolver before re-holstering. Rifles are staged closed and we know that they are loaded! But, they are staged in a safe direction. DUH! When we put them down, open or closed, they should be put down in a muzzle-safe manner. There are already rules to cover that.

 

The only way I see this working is to either go back to the old rule, "open and empty period" (which has subjectivity also) or do away with this new addition (discarded) and continue like we have for the last couple of months...which by-the-way, has been working great.

 

Just my 4$ worth.

 

Four Bucks

Exactly what I have lobbied for in the other post. Way too simple. Go back to one of these (preferably the more recent one) and remove the subjectivity of deciding how or who caused a condition to exist. Seems almost contrarian to have the existing wording, not to mention cutting the legs out from under the folks we rely on for guidance. Misty & PWB both have had to retract what was a clear and simple ruling.

 

CR

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It SHOULD be that simple...but there a few (as of yet unpublished) details that still need a bit of work...IMO.

 

 

RE: a few other comments:

 

I've stated before that I have some strong (nonpunishable) opinions about the TG system...and I ARE one (for multiple clubs, which is apparently a sore spot with SOME folks).

:ph34r:

 

Maybe someone can explain how being a "non-profit" organization would change the rule-making process...

preferably in AMERICAN ENGLISH.

<_<

 

 

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This is a snap shot of what's wrong with the whole darn country........people have lost their common sense and need everything under the sun in writing.....lol. Let me get this straight, if you put the rifle or shotgun down after you fire it and the action is closed then you and the RO examine the gun after the stage and make the appropriate call. Sounds pretty simple too me.

 

We just sent 24 rounds down range........no one is down there so if a gun is pointed down range "still" with or without a live round in it it's not going to go off by itself......even if it did it pointed safely down range where the other 23 went. If it's NOT pointed in a safe direction we all ready have rules for that and the shooter would be stopped immediately. That's why no one touches a gun with the action closed but the shooter WITH the RO....it gives them time to make it safe and assess the penalties IF there are any.

 

Are these the same folks asking if they can triple tap when it says you can't double tap...........?

Actutally...No, not that simple...

 

If the action is closed when you put the rifle or shotgun down after you fire it, you must open it - whether or not there is still a spent cartridge or hull in it. Otherwise, MSV.

 

If the action is open when you put the rifle or shotgun down after you fire it, and is closes some time after that, then you and the RO examine the gun after the stage and make the appropriate call.

 

That was the whole intent of changing it again, wasn't it?

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I'm gonna go discard a couple 'o beers ;)

 

J :ph34r: R-E

 

JEDI Jefro:

 

everybody knows that those beers won't leave your hands until they are just an empty bottle. Therefore, you won't be discarding a beer but rather an empty bottle....Opened and Empty.

 

NO CALL!

 

;)

 

..........Widder

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JEDI Jefro:

 

everybody knows that those beers won't leave your hands until they are just an empty bottle. Therefore, you won't be discarding a beer but rather an empty bottle....Opened and Empty.

 

NO CALL!

 

;)

 

..........Widder

 

A couple of tips using that analogy indoors...

 

 

Watch which way that "dangerous" empty is pointing when discarded; don't want any residual spillage if there are suds remaining. :mellow:

If "restaging" for further use, advise closing the "action"...early AM scroungers looking for partials have DQ'd themselves after chugging the remnants of someone's spittoon. :o

 

Still remember those "rules" after 30 years of sobriety (which may be in jeopardy before this settles out)

:P

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A couple of tips using that analogy indoors...

 

 

Watch which way that "dangerous" empty is pointing when discarded; don't want any residual spillage if there are suds remaining. :mellow:

If "restaging" for further use, advise closing the "action"...early AM scroungers looking for partials have DQ'd themselves after chugging the remnants of someone's spittoon. :o

 

Still remember those "rules" after 30 years of sobriety (which may be in jeopardy before this settles out)

:P

 

PWB: overcome the temptation and have a COLD PEPSI/COKE on me! ;)

 

We'll just leave those suds to Jefro... :lol:

 

Misty may be 'earning' her alias right now. Plus, they need to double your salary.

 

 

..........Widder

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I'm on my second bowl of popcorn….Gentlemen, PROCEED :P

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I'm on my second bowl of popcorn.Gentlemen, PROCEED :P

 

Hey Rye,

Is that breakfast popcorn, or brunch popcorn? 😜

And did you discard your 1st bowl "open and empty"? 😎

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Actutally...No, not that simple...

 

If the action is closed when you put the rifle or shotgun down after you fire it, you must open it - whether or not there is still a spent cartridge or hull in it. Otherwise, MSV.

 

If the action is open when you put the rifle or shotgun down after you fire it, and is closes some time after that,

 

 

 

That's not what is says...... A 10-second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the

firearm is not discarded “open and empty.”

 

Still waiting on a definition/clarification for the word "discarded".

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My bad. You're right.

 

:blink:

 

What I should have said was

 

If the action is closed before you "discard" it, you must open it - whether or not there is still a spent cartridge or hull in it. Otherwise, MSV.

If the action is open in the immediate moment after you "discard" it, and is closes some time after it has been "discarded", then the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter and then appropriate penalties will be applied if it is not clear.

 

Is that microwave popcorn?

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This is a snap shot of what's wrong with the whole darn country........people have lost their common sense and need everything under the sun in writing.....lol. Let me get this straight, if you put the rifle or shotgun down after you fire it and the action is closed then you and the RO examine the gun after the stage and make the appropriate call. Sounds pretty simple too me.

 

We just sent 24 rounds down range........no one is down there so if a gun is pointed down range "still" with or without a live round in it it's not going to go off by itself......even if it did it pointed safely down range where the other 23 went. If it's NOT pointed in a safe direction we all ready have rules for that and the shooter would be stopped immediately. That's why no one touches a gun with the action closed but the shooter WITH the RO....it gives them time to make it safe and assess the penalties IF there are any.

 

Are these the same folks asking if they can triple tap when it says you can't double tap...........?

I believe it is actually that simple. Remember reading comprehension in school. Some were not that good at it then. :)

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PWB: overcome the temptation and have a COLD PEPSI/COKE on me! ;)

 

We'll just leave those suds to Jefro... :lol:

 

Misty may be 'earning' her alias right now. Plus, they need to double your salary.

 

 

..........Widder

I'm in fer a quadruple :excl::P

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Hey Rye,

Is that breakfast popcorn, or brunch popcorn?

And did you discard your 1st bowl "open and empty"?

Uh Oh…I put it in the sink not quite empty and soaked it with water!!! Is that a SDQ or MDQ??? :lol:

 

It was Orville Redenbachers, if that makes a difference! :P

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This whole conversation reminds me of a conversation I overheard between Walter and Leroy, those 2 wild and crazy ducks.

 

Walter ask Leroy:

"How much duck poop does it take in a pond to have 'poopy water'.

 

Leroy said:

 

"I don't know. What do you think I am, some Quaaack".

 

;):lol::lol:

 

..........Widder

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May be we can have some explanations of the wording of intents studying the vers. 19-5!

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PWB, make sure that diet soda is caffeine free... no sense gettin' yer blood pressure spiked.

 

Frankly, I never understood the logic of havin' a non-safety penalty (procedural), equal to a safety penalty (MSV). Let's go back to the MSV bein' a 30 second penalty! Betcha everyone then makes sure their long guns are "...discarded, open & empty."

 

stirthepot.gif

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