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New Shooter Confused by Call Today


Thunder Rhodes

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A shooter at the match today experienced a malfunction (shell casing in barrel) with live rounds in the magazine. In an effort to clear the malfunction, his rifle swept the loading table and two spotters. One of the spotters immediately called for a Match DQ and debate ensued. A Match DQ was awarded. I was confused as to why the safety officer didn't make that decision. I reviewed the rule book and found that it should have been a stage DQ at the first occurrence. I agree that range safety is a top priority but I was confused at how the situation played out. Watched a cowboy leave the range very dejected and wondered what could have or should have been done in that situation.

 

Thoughts?

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Sweeping anyone with a LOADED firearm is a MATCH DQ.

PERIOD.

REF: RO1 p.25

 

Where is your reference to only assessing a SDQ for that violation?

FWIW - The section of RO1 on page 17 that states:

Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner.

...only refers to safety penalties for rounds remaining and/or cocked firearms leaving the shooter's hand(s).
Miss, dropped firearm and sweeping penalties would still apply to a malfunctioning firearm.
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Thunder -

Anyone can make that call as the TO might not have been in the best position to see it.

 

I know somewhat how that cowboy feels, and I don't think it's the penalty awarded, but the fact that someone was swept and it was his fault.

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How the shooter leaves the range at the end of the day also depends on how it was handled.

 

Quietly informing the offender of the violation & penalty is much preferable to a screaming public spectacle that embarasses everyone involved.

 

Somewhat confused re: the OP statement "...why the safety officer didn't make that decision." if the T/O was NOT the one who "made the call" once the spotter pointed out the violation.

If the Timer Operator didn't actually observe it, it sounds like all parties were acting properly according to their "job descriptions" (REF RO1 pp. 6-9)

 

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Watched a cowboy leave the range very dejected and wondered what could have or should have been done in that situation.

 

Thoughts?

A screwknife is handy in such situations. This malfunction is not uncommon. One can rescue a bit of their dignity by staying at the match and helping with chores. BTW some of our champions have earned MDQs.

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We've settled the rule issue. Now, we've all made mistakes. A lot of us have been DQed. It's a learning experience, however humbling it may be. And as Monsieur Canby said, you don't have to go home. You can always stay and help out with scoring, setting targets and other chores. That will actually help improve your mood, earn respect, and and prevent your wife asking why you're home so early. ;)

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A shooter at the match today experienced a malfunction (shell casing in barrel) with live rounds in the magazine. In an effort to clear the malfunction, his rifle swept the loading table and two spotters. One of the spotters immediately called for a Match DQ and debate ensued. A Match DQ was awarded. I was confused as to why the safety officer didn't make that decision. I reviewed the rule book and found that it should have been a stage DQ at the first occurrence. I agree that range safety is a top priority but I was confused at how the situation played out. Watched a cowboy leave the range very dejected and wondered what could have or should have been done in that situation.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

MDQ no question about it.

 

 

All you can do is explain it to him in a nice way and hope they understand.

 

If they can not understand after it being explained nicely. Then maybe they don't

need to be there.

But feel most will understand.

 

But don't make them feel like the lone ranger. Might also explain how others,

including top shooters have gotten MDQ's before also.

And invite them to stay the rest of the day for the fellowship and learning.

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Thanks so much for all of the good feedback. As a new SASS shooter, I learn something new at every match. Safety is the top priority...it just seemed strange in how it was handled. Glad the wire is full of knowledge for us who are new to the game!

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Wish it would speed up my shooting times!

 

I use 5-Hour or Winchester "Pump Up" for shooting (and driving long distances)

Power%20Up.jpg

Works for me...has a tendency to "unravel" those whose metabolism ain't wired for it.

 

Cuts down on the number of rest stops required when drinking coffee or other high-caff "energy drinks" (like Dew or Monster)

;)

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I use 5-Hour or Winchester "Pop Up" for shooting (and driving long distances)

Power%20Up.jpg

Works for me...has a tendency to "unravel" those whose metabolism ain't wired for it.

 

Cuts down on the number of rest stops required when drinking coffee or other high-caff "energy drinks" (like Dew or Monster)

;)

 

 

:huh: Isn't there a rule against that?

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:huh: Isn't there a rule against that?

 

Which rule would that be??

If you're referring to #27, it has the opposite effect to what is prohibited.

 

It's a legal INTERNAL modification.

 

:P

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PWB, if you belong to Costco, their brand is as good as 5 hour but less than half the price! had one today for the drive home after shooting...

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Thanks!

 

I currently have two sources ... BADMAN BULLETS carries the Winchester brand (gives me an(other) excuse to stop by the shop) ^_^

 

One of my customers has a connection for the 5-hour by the case at wholesale pricing...the only time I pay full retail is if I happen to run short while traveling.

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Since the OP has been treated to a powerful lot of cogent discussion and the topic has now devolved to caffeine technique, allow me to recommend Military Energy Gum:

 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002U2IMBA/ref=oh_details_o06_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

100 mg of caffeine in a magnum chicklet that fits in yer pocket. It is now part of my stage three regime, along with the banana and bottle of water. There are 5 pieces in a foil paper pack, about $0.23 per chaw and it works rat now. Good stuff for those who like a kick goin' into lunch.

 

Sure wish I'd had this stuff whilst still in the cockpit.

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A note to the OP if he's still reading this waylaid thread..lol

 

We are ALL safety officers at a match. The timer operator is just that..and part-time referee now and then.

If you see something like that ,sing out,the TO may not see it right off,or at all,but that does not matter...it's safety that matters.

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Question: Did the shooter stay and help the rest of the match or did he leave immediately? If handled properly at the time of the call and more importantly after, the shooter should have understood the severity of the action.

 

Was it adequately explained to the shooter about the possibility of someone being shot and that we have these rules in place for a reason?

 

Just wondering....cause if the shooter left the stage and the match without another word to him/her, that falls on the MD and the range.

 

Just sayin

 

KK

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Karl,

 

It happened on the last stage of the day. The cowboy seemed to load his gear and stay near his truck while the other shooters finished the day. He acted very dejected and stood by himself. Not sure what happened with him after I left but I hope there were some handshakes involved. I think we can all agree he made a big mistake. The other younger shooter and I both commented to each other that we missed a great learning opportunity in a cloud of unnecessary public drama.

 

Now I fully understand the answer to my original question along with the fact that CAS is full of caffeine addicts (grin). Thanks to all!

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Thunder, We can not answer as to how the members of your club handled this, but the MDQ was the correct outcome. Does your club have a new shooters clinic? If so, the safety issues should have been covered there. Sure, we all handle our guns in a safe manner when things went as they should, but then something like that happens, our minds get a little cloudy and we stop thinking about "safety first." As for the "cloud of unnecessary public drama," we weren't there and don't know you caused what drama, or what exactly happened. I don't know how many people saw this. At my club 75% of the posse would have witnessed it if the shooter was still on the line. Someone with a problem attracts a lot of attention. We don't know what the shooter was doing to clear his rifle. If he was working the action and pointing the rifle at me or my wife, I'd be a little more than unhappy.

 

What happens now is up the you and your club, and the shooter. This can still be a "great learning opportunity." Have you, or a club officer or member, reached out to him? Might not be a bad idea to do so.

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Personaly, I am a big fan of Clif Shot Bloks myself.

 

Each time I attend a match, I am hopeful that I continue to learn from it. Both things I can do as a shooter and as a member of the posse. Whether it is RO, spotting, whatever.

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Not about penalties, or caffeine.

 

Having just turned 71, and having taking up shooting recently (my grandson got me into it), and CAS more recently (two years ago were the first shoots for my wife and I), some things that are instinctive for long term shooter are not so ingrained for new shooters. We took the NRA courses in pistol handling and shooting, and spend a lot of time at ranges gaining experience with our guns.

 

At our first match, it was clear to all in the posse that we were new and inexperienced in both CAS and gun competitions, and somewhat insecure about doing everything correctly, and safely.

 

An experienced shooter was assigned to each of us, who would shadow us from our gun carts to the loading table, to the firing line, to the unloading table, and back to our gun carts offering suggestions and cautions along the way. We did not shoot particularily well, worse than in most practice sessions we did, but we did finish the match safely. A few SDQs, and a potential MDQ were avoided by a tap on the shoulder, or a light touch on a gun. We both learned a lot, and, while disappointed with our performance, we received a lot of encourangement from all in our posse.

 

It might be worthwhile to add a section to the RO manuals about identifying and working with new and inexperienced shooters. A SDQ or MDQ might be "shrugged off" and accepted as "just a mistake" by a long time shooter, but, even though the right call and fully justified, it can be quite discouraging for new folks.

 

B Slim

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I like how we say a DQ was 'awarded'. I always thought awards were good things.

 

Thunder Roads, the point that hopefully made to this new shooter (and so that other can be reminded) is that safety is always #1. We will all have malfunctions, falls, trips, and other things that do not go as planned while handling guns or while on the clock, but we need to be able to step away from the game and keep these events from spiraling into anything worse.

 

An experienced shooter should have a knife and at attitude of clearing a round from the action. A shooter with less experience should know to ground a gun that cannot easily be corrected and to continue with the stage. I have been fortunate to have good ROs and spotters that helped me understand how this should work when I got started in the game.

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The one club I shoot with offers a mandatory orientation class for new to CAS shooters. It has about one hour of "classroom" type lecture with questions and answers before we head to the range. We shoot about as mutch as a match, starting with one pistol, and then two. Then just the rifle followed buy just the shotgun. Then we put it all together for about three stages. We cover as many of the common mistakes as we can as we go along. This is all in a non-threatning inviorment. It gets much of the first match jitters out of the way with little embarassment. This all takes about five to six hours depending on class size.

 

The other club I shoot with most is considering going to an orientation class.

 

We feel this method realy gives the new shooters a good start. It does raise the bar on what is expected at the first match. We still give them all the help we can.

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I was pretty impressed with the new shooter class at Wartrace.

 

Even more so that they met me on a Thursday afternoon, even though I was the only one that needed the course.

 

I don't have anything else to say, just that I sure am glad they gave me the new shooter course before my first match.

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Thunder, I would personally give that shooter a call.

The fact that he stood alone by his truck....when a shooter not 'on duty' should have gone to him, and got him back to the posse, to let him know this was okay to do so, says he needs some explaining.

And yes, every new shooter needs a buddy to stick with the first couple of times.

Last stage? Sounds like folks jumped on the coals out of being tired?

Make sure MDQ. and SDQ., 170 rule be revisited at next shoots saftey briefing.

Hope you didn't loose a new member!

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Think about how upset you get when you have a miss called on you that you didn't think you deserved..........

 

Now think about a procedural call made against you that you didn't think you did......

 

Put yourself in the shooters shoes...... They have to understand what they did and why the penalty is so severe.

 

When we concentrate on fixing one problem with a firearm, we sometimes forget where the business end is pointed. That is why the TO is there and even then they can't stop you from doing something dangerous without thinking.

 

I once had a shooter that had a squib in a shotgun (Trap range). His immediate response to the lack of noise from the muzzle was to look into the end of the barrel. He didn't even know that he did it and wondered why we were all yelling at him.

 

I had another shooter at a cowboy match clear a bullet in the barrel from a squib load by pointing it downrange at the unloading table and firing another round downrange. Yes I yelled at him and I shouldn't have.

 

I am sure that all of us have situations we could have handled better. Hopefully your cowboy will come back and give everyone another chance to laugh at yourselves again.

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A shooter at the match today experienced a malfunction (shell casing in barrel) with live rounds in the magazine. In an effort to clear the malfunction, his rifle swept the loading table and two spotters. One of the spotters immediately called for a Match DQ and debate ensued. A Match DQ was awarded. I was confused as to why the safety officer didn't make that decision. I reviewed the rule book and found that it should have been a stage DQ at the first occurrence. I agree that range safety is a top priority but I was confused at how the situation played out. Watched a cowboy leave the range very dejected and wondered what could have or should have been done in that situation.

 

Thoughts?

 

"Awarded"? The better word would be "assessed". I dropped a revolver that I'd just finished shooting late in the 5th stage of a match last year and got a stage DQ, and nobody called it an "award".

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