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Grouchy Spike

What's the Call?

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After all of this discussion it looks like the only way this question could have been resovled definitively would be for there had been better stage instructions. There weren't, so there are a lot of good arguements, but there will never be an answer. Time to move on to some other weighty topic, like rank points vs. total time.

 

Wow, while I was typing this paragraph there were five more posts. Looks like Rowdy got it resolved.

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The call is TEN seconds ,,,, 5 for the Knock-down left standing and 5 for the remaining round in the gun that did not fire ...

It makes no difference WHY the round did not fire it clearly did not hit a target and NO attempt was made to fix this by loading an allowable Make-Up round ...

 

I hate to admitt this but Phamtoms Call of 10 seconds is the right call ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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Rowdy, I understand a ruling has been made and will do my best to abide by it, I just don't happen to agree :D

 

I am thankful that this is a few and far between situation and hope that I never have to make a call on an identical situation.

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In post #112 Snake Bite says It should be 10 seconds ........

 

I think he is seeing things a little clearer than some ...

 

Flame Proof suit on !!!

 

Jabez Cowboy

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CBB . I have said on alot of my post that the rules as they are need some editing . Hope that you did'nt take offense to any of my post .

 

Dave , I meant that as a reference to the fact that the RO committee ruled on this many pages ago .

 

Phantom , 1 miss . The stage allowed for 4 free rounds untill all knockdowns were down . If he shot and hit six down for seven then 3 bad rounds he would have three misses as they were to go on the static target .

 

Branch Water Jack , The rules do not say anything about engagement for a miss to occur . If you have ten plates and pull pistol one and hit five then then forget to pull pistol two thats five misses . A live round left in a pistol that is not under the hammer is no additional penalty other than the miss . This has been stated in this thread by the RO committee .

Of course not, we're both coming from the same place I think, curiosity and a desire for clarification. Now we have a ruling that it's 5 seconds, which I'm happy to accept. As Buck said, I'll probably never have to make this call, but you can bet I'll remember what the call should be.

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I spoke with PaleWolf right after my first response and his answer:

 

That one took some teeth-pulling to get the scenario straightened out due to lack of detail in the OP.

 

Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.

One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty.

 

 

 

 

PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS Life #2495

************************************

This from PWB many pages ago. One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty

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We have the answer via Rowdy from Palewolf. One miss only.

 

Now, how to make the written rules clarify that since it is obviously a point of confusion.

 

I would like to see the miss/procedure flow chart modified to cover this and do away with the separate statement about unfired rounds.

 

For example the first question on the flow chart could be:

"Were all required number of rounds fired per the stage instructions? If yes, continue. If No, assess misses for unfired rounds."

 

Then:

"Except for unfired rounds (less clearly defective ammo), did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

If yes - assess no additional misses. If no, assess misses."

 

Would that make it clear???

 

It would greatly help if there was one place to look rather than the precondition Plus the flow chart.

There, that might help.

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The salient point in the OP is that the round was used to engage a target, and being that it was defective, you can count the miss the defective round caused, but you don't then count it as "unfired"... for the attempt to fire it was made.

 

And, for matters of extrapolation, it matters not, how many OTHER misses there were, nor at what type of target they were... well, pointed towards... kinda... sorta... just not very accurately.

 

And Buck, to answer your question, yes, every call matters, for some folks are shootin' for category placement... or beatin' their best bud, or the one guy that beats them by one overall placement every month...

+1 on what Griff said above. I've read all of the posts in great detail, pulled out my rules and come to the conclusion that others have made here...the rules need to be tweaked to account for defective ammo....shouldn't be a double jeopardy item.

 

Also, PWB has made his call and the ROC agrees with it so the call is 1 five second penalty...not matter how you think it ought to be called....matter settled as far as this thread is concerned (in my mind anyway)

 

Now what would REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY be helpful is if the TGs in their upcoming meeting bring this matter up and suggest some wording that would address this issue regarding defective ammo where an attempt was made to "engage" the target but it did not fire. I believe Marauder made a good suggestion regarding this along with the little tweak added by Griff. Its a starting place; certainly not chiseled in stone, and I hope any TGs that have monitored or contributed to this thread that will be in attendance at the upcoming TG meeting will bring this up for consideration. The Wild Bunch may not agree with a recommendation but at least it was addressed properly.

 

Kajun

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I got $100 that says this shooter doesn't have a chance of doing a revolver reload in less than 10 seconds and another $100 that says he doesn't hit the KD with the reload.

 

And I don't care what the RO Committee says on this one.

 

2 Misses.... take your protest to the MD. We already gave you 4 freebies.... you'll have to get the 5th from him. :angry:

Brother King... AD Texaz here - I take you up on this bet!

pm me and I will tell you the shooters name

 

AD

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Or...... one bullet can't miss a target and be unfired at the same time. It's an either or proposition. Please don't tell me about previous shots that failed to knock down the targets in the OP. Those were allowable "misses". :)

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But Buck, what if a shooter was in the middle of a stage, and there was a freak total eclipse and the shooters cigar ended up in the RO's ear? And what if at that very same moment a humming bird lodged itself in the shotgun barrel?

Not enough information. Has the shotgun been loaded yet? Is the hummingbird lodged because Widdowmaker Hill stole it's wings and put them in place of his thumbs? ;)

 

I think I feel us creeping toward a black hole. Oh, noooooooooooooooooooooooo! :)

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Brother King... AD Texaz here - I take you up on this bet!

pm me and I will tell you the shooters name

 

AD

I'm sure he'd be dang proud to have everyone know it. Never seen so much whining about taking a stinkin' miss. I'd hate to be the witness of anyone re-creating this tragedy. Heck, AD... put it on video so we can all watch. Practice all you want.

 

For good grace sake.... how dumbed down do we have to make this game in order to insure that everyone goes home feeling just peachy about their cowboy action shooting experience?

 

SASS at some clubs has become TBALL with a gun. The whole thing is just embarrassing.

 

What if you think of the targets and stages like a real gunfight. You left one shooting back at you and gave up the fight. Still call it 1 miss?

 

The RO Committee has ruled. But this ruling is pathetic and an embarrassment to the whole sport. And some of you are talking about making an exception for rounds that didn't go bang? Seriously... pathetic.... let's just make exceptions, make ups, hell.... shut off the timer while I go back to my cart and get another gun.

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The ROC, of which PaleWolf is a member has made a ruling.

1 - 5 second penalty.

That is fine but when, how, where will it be posted and fixed so that the MDs TOs, RO INSTRUCTORS and general membership know. Posting it here on this wire doesn't change anything since 95% of the folks don't read it and the rule books as written don't clearly support it. I'm all for the change/clarification but it needs to be someplace that it can be referenced to support the call should it come up in the future.

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Or...... one bullet can't miss a target and be unfired at the same time. It's an either or proposition. Please don't tell me about previous shots that failed to knock down the targets in the OP. Those were allowable "misses". :)

Yea, I'm still not comfortable about the language... A round not fired cannot logically "miss" its intended target (or should we say "suspected" target), but... maybe an actual unfired round should be equal to a "Procedural", whereas a round, defective but clearly "engaged" is only a 5 second penalty, and counted as a miss...

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Yea, I'm still not comfortable about the language... A round not fired cannot logically "miss" its intended target (or should we say "suspected" target), but... maybe an actual unfired round should be equal to a "Procedural", whereas a round, defective but clearly "engaged" is only a 5 second penalty, and counted as a miss...

Oh yeah....that oughtta clear it up.... can't see any arguments coming out of that rule. :lol::lol::lol: Plus, the "clearly" language is going to prevent anyone from ever making a 'clear' call.

 

Hell, we can't even call a 170! or a simple stinkin' miss....out of 3 rule books and a secret TG bunker located someplace in the North..wet... :ph34r:

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I conclude the RO Committee's position is:

Rifle and pistol knockdown targets are scored the same as stationary rifle and pistol targets.

If a shooter has a bad primer on his/her 10th pistol round while shooting at the last stationary pistol target in a sequence, the shooter is penalized 5 seconds for shooting only 9 rounds and is NOT charged another 5 seconds for not hitting the last stationary pistol target.

The same is the case for a knockdown pistol target. The shooter is not charged another 5 seconds for not hitting (left standing) the last knockdown target.


The statement in the Rules - that knockdown targets left standing are counted as misses - is simply comparing counting knockdown targets TO stationary targets that are counted by Spotters.

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A 10 shot string should only have the potential for 10 misses. Look at through the example from the ROC

"Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.
One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty."

 

If this stage were shot with a rifle and the 10th dud round was ejected, the shooter would have the option to reload the round or take a 5 second miss. We would not score it as 5 seconds for the KD and 5 seconds for the round ejected, because the shooter engaged (attempted to fire a round at the target) the target when he racked the action. The same thing happened with the pistol, the shooter engaged the target ((attempted to fire a round at the target) in fact he went around twice. He should have the same option of reload one round or take one 5 second miss, not two. I don't see how a pistol can carry a 5 second additional penalty for the same 10 shot string. There should only be 10 misses avaliable for the rifle or pistol, not 11, 12, 13, or 14 just for the pistol. I'm sure the ROC will find a way make this clear in the future. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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I'm fine with one miss. BOD to the shooter whenever there is doubt. I've shifted my paradigm about how to score such a scenario. This is a tidbit of knowledge that I seriously doubt will ever be needed again, by me or anyone else. If so, I hope that I've bought a lottery ticket the same day and that the odds go toward my ticket instead of someone "missing" 44% of their shots and still wanting to debate whether they are called as one miss or two misses. After winning the lottery, I'll be shooting cowboy practically full time and we can "argue" face to face. So much more is accomplished around a campfire. Around the campfire, I'd have been "convinced" in five minutes.

 

Griff, my severely analytical (like me) friend, I hear you. I often find myself preaching that most of the competition going on at a match is overlooked by the majority of folks who are focused primarily on the "battle" they're involved in and the top finishers...who are not as important to us as the personal battle. I might not be able to say who won Frontier Cartridge Duelist, but I understand that they know just like I know who did what in Gunfighter. Ask Sgt. Eli about me forgetting to shoot my shotgun for a few moments and how it affected the outcome. It doesn't take much sometimes.

 

The point that I was trying to make is that in this case, unless lottery winning odds have come into play and the shooter was hitting beyond the skill level exhibited on this stage, it's unlikely that five seconds will affect them in their category or even in the match. If a shooter shoots five stages with 24 targets each and misses stationary (not knockdowns) targets 44% of the time (like this stage), they'll have in excess of 50 misses. 50 x 5 = 250 seconds in misses alone. Even so, we should score it correctly because 50 misses should be counted as 50 misses and not as 51 misses.

 

Mr. A.D. Texaz:

I'm not looking for a shooter's name, but I would love to see the results. I think I can limit it to two questions:

1) What percentage of shooters did this shooter, after receiving one miss, manage to finish in front of?

2) Would five seconds have made a difference?

 

Inquiring minds want to know. :)

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I don't think it makes a difference if he "engaged" it, went around twice, or just plain didn't fire the round. Intent doesn't matter in this case. The outcome is the same, ONE target was UNHIT so we assess ONE penalty. You can call that penalty a "miss" if the gun went bang, and an "unfired round" if the gun didn't go bang. This is how thousands of stages are scored every month.

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After winning the lottery, I'll be shooting cowboy practically full time and we can "argue" face to face. So much more is accomplished around a campfire. Around the campfire, I'd have been "convinced" in five minutes.

.

Hey Buck, after winning the lottery I know where you can find a prodical son to keep fresh ice in your drinks and the campfire stoked :D

Not as much as the lottery but, I'll betcha 50 cent this makes it to page 8 :o:lol:

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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Hey Buck, after winning the lottery I know where you can find a prodical son to keep fresh ice in your drinks and the campfire stoked :D

Not as much as the lottery but, I'll betcha 50 cent this makes it to page 8 :o:lol:

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Jefro, if I win the lottery, the game will never be the same. Everybody who wins a match WILL win a Cadillac. Category winners will get a Chevrolet. I might have to change my alias to Elvis. I'd be more like Jed Clampett though, so Jefro (Jethro) would fit right in. We'll even build a cement pond! :)

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Don't forget your long lost brother Grizz. Don't need no caddelac car, heck, I'd settle for a new Honda, got one all picked out in fact.

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Just so I’m clear on this…



We have a stage calling for 10 rifle rounds to knock down 8 targets and any remaining rounds are to be placed on a stationary target…so if
I jack out a round or two… but still manage to get all knock down targets hit…I’m not required to replace any of the rounds not fired?



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SITREP from the "secret" NW bunker (previously located at OHSU/Vibra in PDX). :P

:ph34r:

The ROC is cogitating the proper verbiage to clarify this issue.

It will be added to the RO1 "Penalty Overview" in the "5-second Penalties" section for future reference.

 

ETA not known at this time.

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Just so I’m clear on this…

 

 

We have a stage calling for 10 rifle rounds to knock down 8 targets and any remaining rounds are to be placed on a stationary target…

so if I jack out a round or two… but still manage to get all knock down targets hit…I’m not required to replace any of the rounds not fired?

 

 

 

 

NO...all 10 rounds MUST be fired...or counted scored the same as misses.

The rules are very clear in that regard.

 

For further information, here's a link to the "secret" SHOOTER's CHOICE document (that's been posted here numerous times and published twice in the "Cowboy Chronicle"...for whatever THAT's worth).

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I don't think it makes a difference if he "engaged" it, went around twice, or just plain didn't fire the round. Intent doesn't matter in this case. The outcome is the same, ONE target was UNHIT so we assess ONE penalty. You can call that penalty a "miss" if the gun went bang, and an "unfired round" if the gun didn't go bang. This is how thousands of stages are scored every month.

 

BINGO!!

 

^_^

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NO...all 10 rounds MUST be replaced & fired...or counted scored the same as misses.

The rules are very clear in that regard.

 

For further information, here's a link to the "secret" SHOOTER's CHOICE document (that's been posted here numerous times and published twice in the "Cowboy Chronicle"...for whatever THAT's worth).

Now I'm really confused...I took the two jacked out rounds as misses...but misses don't count as long as the targets all go down.

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Now I'm really confused...I took the two jacked out rounds as misses...but misses don't count as long as the targets all go down.

 

Misses for rounds actually FIRED don't count (if the stage directions re: KD's state so)...if not FIRED, the "unfired round(s)" 5-second penalty applies.

 

See also post #124 (back on page 4 for those that missed it) for another example.

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BINGO!!

 

^_^

Heyya PB - glad to see ya!!!!

 

In this specific case, I see a problem in that there were only 6 KD's and one had 10 to kd them. In my example, if the shooter shot the first 5 shots and kd'd 5 of the 6, then with his 6th shot missed kd no. 6, at that point the shooter has one miss and 4 unfired rounds. So if their gun broke at that point they would eat 5 total misses. The remaining four are acting in a role of Miss Erasers...if you will...but you have to send 'em down range.

 

I see this situation much differently then a 10 kd with 10 shots.

 

Phantom

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Misses for rounds actually FIRED don't count (if the stage directions re: KD's state so)...if not FIRED, the "unfired round(s)" 5-second penalty applies.

 

See also post #124 (back on page 4 for those that missed it) for another example.

I follow that...but I don't understand why the shooter in OP isn't required to replace the bad round.. but you say that I am?

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I follow that...but I don't understand why the shooter in OP isn't required to replace the bad round.. but you say that I am?

 

If the shooter in the OP had replaced the defective (unfired) round and FIRED it at the KD & failed to KD it, he would still have a MISS for the standing target + the time for the reload.

Both of you have a CHOICE whether to reload/replace a defective/ejected round to take down the target(s);

OR take the 5-second penalty for each UNFIRED round.

 

Please ref the "Shooter's Choice" link above for the various options available.

A few more examples:

 

10 shots to KD five targets...misses on KD's don't count...remaining rounds after KD's are down go on a stationary "dump" target. Misses on the dump count.

 

Shooter #1 dumps his first five rounds into the back berm...then KD's the targets with the remaining 5 rounds = NO MISSES

 

Shooter #2 KD's four targets with the first 4 rounds; dumps five into the dirt; then KD's the last target with his 10th shot = NO MISSES

 

Shooter #3 has a squib on his first round (rifle not first gun on stage) = TEN "5-second penalties" for "unfired rounds"; with NO additional penalties for the 5 still-standing KD targets.

 

Shooter #4 KD's the plates with first 5 rounds...fires the remaining 5 rounds at the "dump" target & misses it 5x = 5 MISSES

 

Shooter #5 KD's the plates with first 5 rounds...jacks out #6; then #7 squibs = 5 MISSES

....

....

....

Shooter #6 (using revolver) KD's targets with first 5 rounds; has a squib with first shot from second revolver while engaging the "dump target". Makes firearm safe...unloads/reloads first pistol; fires 5 hits on the stationary target = NO MISSES

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Good to see you back pard.

 

Snakebite

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So let me get this straight -

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Just kidding! :lol:

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Good to see you back pard.

 

Snakebite

Plus 7 pages.... :D

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