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Grouchy Spike

What's the Call?

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While all the pondering is going on, ponder this slightly difference stage: Five knockdowns (instead of six) and the stage ends with pistols. Shooter puts down all knockdowns with first five shots, pulls second pistol, snap, snap, snap, snap, snap. Clean?

If stage is wrote just like op but with just five knockdowns and a dump target . Well that would be tough luck because that would be 5 misses . If he had the first pistol go snap , snap , snap , snap , snap and snap ( all duds ) then cleaned the knockdowns with the second pistol then that would be great luck because he is clean . Remember misses were free until all the knockdowns were down then he was to go to the static if any rounds were left . The duds in the first pistol was all the free misses he had availible since the knockdowns were still up .

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Reload and drop the knockdown, clean.

 

No need to take out the dud. Pistol is safe for movement after firing the reloaded round as it is hammer down on a spent round.

 

The unfired round penalty is associated with the stage round count, there are separate penalties for rounds left in long guns.

Dave!!! You get the prize for your last coment. It seems to evade so many folks involved in this discussion. If the stage calls for 10 shots on 10 targets then we assess misses or unfired round penalties for any of the 10 targets that don't get hit. The confusion comes when we write stages that include rounds without a designated target.

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if the whole stage were to happen and no one was there?

:ph34r: its the voices

they seem to be back on this thread :ph34r:

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Is there a dump target? LOL, that's evil Buck, cause your next question is probably how do you call it if the first five shots fired are duds.

:ph34r: ~evil grin~

 

The irony of this entire situation is that a call of one miss vs. two misses is extremely unlikely to change the final outcome for a shooter who was unable to knock down six plates with nine rounds (56% hit ratio).

 

My thoughts: We're trying to define the equivalent of what to do in the event a meteor falls through your roof...a second time. The only thing unique about this scenario is that the shooter did not fire ten rounds. If ten rounds had been fired, there would be no discussion, everyone would agree that it is a single miss. Yes, I get that in another scenario in which nine of ten knockdowns downed, there is only one miss whether it be by a normal miss or a round that didn't go off. I even follow the (fuzzy) logic that this shooter should receive one miss. I just don't think it matters to the point that apparently the RO Committee has been called into action.

 

When you review the answers given originally by so many who are typically known to be correct, yet made the "wrong" call even when quoting the rules, I fear that we're moving deeper into: Here are the rules. Enforce the rules as written...except when a meteor falls through your roof a second time in which case you should refer to page 1873 (nothing to do with the rifle), Section 3, Article A, under the heading W.T.D.W.S.S.T.H.T.I.T.L.R.D.M.A.D. (what to do when strange stuff that happens that in the long run doesn't make any difference).

 

Sometimes the best "fair" available is simply consistency. In this case, another shooter could shoot the same stage, put down the knockdowns with their first six rounds, miss the dump plate with the next three, then have a dud round, and would get four misses. The same number of rounds impacted steel, yet four misses instead of one. I don't really see that as "fair," but I can see it as consistent. Again, sometimes that's all we can have. There is no perfect world.

 

I'm imagining teaching RO Classes and covering what to do in the event a meteor falls through your roof a second time. :) Having now learned the correct call, when I'm at a match where this scenario occurs, I will insist with all of my authority (none) that the shooter be given only one miss. Of course, it if happens twice, the Earth will likely tilt on it's axis, fall out of orbit and...well, it won't be purdy. :)

 

Just out of curiosity, I would love to know where the shooter finished after having received only one miss. If I were a bettin' man...I'd bet...that it made no difference. Come on Grouchy Spike, you can tell us without naming names. How many shooters did the shooter finish ahead of? Did the five seconds make a difference?

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But Buck, what if a shooter was in the middle of a stage, and there was a freak total eclipse and the shooters cigar ended up in the RO's ear? And what if at that very same moment a humming bird lodged itself in the shotgun barrel?

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Or, if he would have beaten his arch nemesis that day?

 

not everybody is in it for the overall....

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I got $100 that says this shooter doesn't have a chance of doing a revolver reload in less than 10 seconds and another $100 that says he doesn't hit the KD with the reload.

 

And I don't care what the RO Committee says on this one.

 

2 Misses.... take your protest to the MD. We already gave you 4 freebies.... you'll have to get the 5th from him. :angry:

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I got $100 that says this shooter doesn't have a chance of doing a revolver reload in less than 10 seconds and another $100 that says he doesn't hit the KD with the reload.

 

And I don't care what the RO Committee says on this one.

 

2 Misses.... take your protest to the MD. We already gave you 4 freebies.... you'll have to get the 5th from him. :angry:

Yea , because the shooter is below average who cares . Lets give him more than they deserve then waste the MD time . Sounds like benefit should go to the self righteous .

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Yea , because the shooter is below average who cares . Lets give him more than they deserve then waste the MD time . Sounds like benefit should go to the self righteous .

+1

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When I make a call, I don't care who the shooter is or at what point of the game they are in. I would fight any call that I felt was wrong for any shooter, from first to last!

 

BTW 1 miss. up til the last shot he was CLEAN, then all of a sudden it's two, phooey!

 

pbcc

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Ahhhhh.....you're all a bunch of softies. Takes a jury of your peers (RO& 3 spotters); three attorneys (PM & Range Directors) and a Philadelphia lawyer (RO Committee) to decipher, then a social media expert directing the spin (SASS WAHR) to count 10 targets with 5 misses; one target left standing and an unfired round as 1 miss.

 

Welcome to the Tball league. No wonder there's another thread about how SASS isn't a real shooting sport in the eyes of some other competitors.

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It's not about being soft its just SIMPLE logic. The stage required six hits and he made five of them. DUH! that means he gets assessed one five second penalty. Just like any other stage. If the stage calls for 10 hits and you make 8 hits then you get assessed two five second penalties. It's pretty simple math. You just have to WANT to look at it logically and leave your contempt aside.

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It's not about being soft its just SIMPLE logic. The stage required six hits and he made five of them. DUH! that means he gets assessed one five second penalty. Just like any other stage. If the stage calls for 10 hits and you make 8 hits then you get assessed two five second penalties. It's pretty simple math. You just have to WANT to look at it logically and leave your contempt aside.

There's a major flaw in your analysis.

 

The stage require 6 hits with 10 shots.

 

My opinion has been one miss...but I'm still on the fence...or I'm NOW on the fence.

 

After 9 shots, the shooter has one miss with the potential of having zero misses since there is still one round left TO BE SHOT.

 

Since the 10 shot never left the barrel...it must have some value. Say the person just said screw it, I'm just gunna take the one miss and holster my revolver. I think if that were the case, most folks would say 2 misses. Or say they shot five and decided that they will take the one miss and not even shoot the last five rounds...

 

Just because a miss on the KD's doesn't constitute a "Miss", doesn't mean that you can just ignore the rules regarding unfired rounds.

 

So...it sucks...but it probably should be 2 misses.

 

Phantom

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A : 10 standing knockdowns and 10 bad primers . Easy 10 x 5 = 50 . B : 1 standing knockdown 1 bad primer . Easy 1 x 5 = 5 . It really is that simple . I still do not get why some want to look at B in a different light . Would anybody out there score A 10 standing knockdowns = 50 sec and 10 unfire rounds =50 sec for a grand total of 100 sec . Man I don't want to shoot on that posse .

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A : 10 standing knockdowns and 10 bad primers . Easy 10 x 5 = 50 . B : 1 standing knockdown 1 bad primer . Easy 1 x 5 = 5 . It really is that simple . I still do not get why some want to look at B in a different light . Would anybody out there score A 10 standing knockdowns = 50 sec and 10 unfire rounds =50 sec for a grand total of 100 sec . Man I don't want to shoot on that posse .

Well because the situation is a bit different here. It's not 10 for 10 or 1 for 1.

 

It's 10 for 6 with remaining rounds going on a dump.

 

There is a reasonable argument for both positions.

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Nope , at the end of the string it was 1 for 1 .1 standing knockdown and 1 round to hit it with . Round would not go off . You have to let go of everything before that . Most stages don't have free misses and alot of people are getting hung up on the 10 for 6 . There were no remaining rounds until all knockdowns were down .

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Okay...this is weird...I'm thinkin way too much on this.

 

Let's take this one step at a time.

 

Say the first 5 shots KD'd the first 5 KD's. Then, the 6th shot doesn't hit the 6th KD. Right now, if the shooter stopped, he/she would have 5 misses. The 6th shot was a miss, and now the shooter has 4 shots to get it clean. 3 shots go bang but no hit...still, one miss and one round left...so, if they stopped now, they would have 2 misses. The last round effectively didn't get used...the shooter tried...but bottom line, it didn't get used. So the one left in the gun, since it wasn't used, counts as a miss.

 

2 misses.

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Okay...this is weird...I'm thinkin way too much on this.

 

Let's take this one step at a time.

 

Say the first 5 shots KD'd the first 5 KD's. Then, the 6th shot doesn't hit the 6th KD. Right now, if the shooter stopped, he/she would have 5 misses. The 6th shot was a miss, and now the shooter has 4 shots to get it clean. 3 shots go bang but no hit...still, one miss and one round left...so, if they stopped now, they would have 2 misses. The last round effectively didn't get used...the shooter tried...but bottom line, it didn't get used. So the one left in the gun, since it wasn't used, counts as a miss.

 

2 misses.

Lots of people are thinking to much , not just you . We can go around and around but it really comes down to one last target with one last bullet . Bullet does not hit target = squib , bad primer , not in gun , shot over target , jacked out etc. etc. etc. . 1 miss . Like Dave said its a round count for the stage .

 

PS , For this stage you had to account for a minimum of 6 rounds . He had 5 hits and 1 miss . Sorry for the late add on.

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There's a major flaw in your analysis.

 

The stage require 6 hits with 10 shots.

 

My opinion has been one miss...but I'm still on the fence...or I'm NOW on the fence.

 

After 9 shots, the shooter has one miss with the potential of having zero misses since there is still one round left TO BE SHOT.

 

Since the 10 shot never left the barrel...it must have some value. Say the person just said screw it, I'm just gunna take the one miss and holster my revolver. I think if that were the case, most folks would say 2 misses. Or say they shot five and decided that they will take the one miss and not even shoot the last five rounds...

 

Just because a miss on the KD's doesn't constitute a "Miss", doesn't mean that you can just ignore the rules regarding unfired rounds.

 

So...it sucks...but it probably should be 2 misses.

 

Phantom

This whole scenario sucks! I've written stages somewhat similar to this half a dozen times in the last year. I'm now rethinking how I want to utilize the plate rack next month. Maybe have a target for every shot and no free misses...

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The miss in my example happened on shot #6. The requirement for keeping the miss total at one or less misses is to send down range the remaining 4 rounds. The potential at this point is 5 misses.

 

10 rounds must go down range. They didn't.

 

The example of having one KD still up and one round left doesn't change this potential. The miss has already occurred on shot #6. Again, if the shooter stops here, they have 2 misses.

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This whole scenario sucks! I've written stages somewhat similar to this half a dozen times in the last year. I'm now rethinking how I want to utilize the plate rack next month. Maybe have a target for every shot and no free misses...

I'm just going to say something like " Only KD's left standing, misses on the dump targets and any unfired rounds count as misses".

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Yup, that is how I will write it from now on.

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The miss in my example happened on shot #6. The requirement for keeping the miss total at one or less misses is to send down range the remaining 4 rounds. The potential at this point is 5 misses.

 

10 rounds must go down range. They didn't.

 

The example of having one KD still up and one round left doesn't change this potential. The miss has already occurred on shot #6. Again, if the shooter stops here, they have 2 misses.

But he did'nt have a miss on #6 shot because the way this stage was wrote he had a max of 4 free misses

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But he did'nt have a miss on #6 shot because the way this stage was wrote he had a max of 4 free misses

That's the problem. They are not free misses. They are rounds that can be used to remove misses. He missed the target (in my specific example). That means that at that time he has one KD up, that's one miss, and 4 rounds left in his pistol. That's 5 misses if stopped at that point.

 

So then his next 3 shots miss too, on the books if stopped at THIS point is 2 misses. That's essentially what we have here.

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By the end of page one I'm astonished that so many knowledgeable cowboys can be so WRONG. I'm not reading the other 3 pages.

 

Surely, someone has gotten it right by now, but just in case it hasn't, the answer is an unequivocal, most certainly, without a doubt only ....wait for it....ONE MISS!

 

end of story.

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By the end of page one I'm astonished that so many knowledgeable cowboys can be so WRONG. I'm not reading the other 3 pages.

 

Surely, someone has gotten it right by now, but just in case it hasn't, the answer is an unequivocal, most certainly, without a doubt only ....wait for it....ONE MISS!

 

end of story.

Why?

 

So the shooter didn't even has to shoot 10 rounds?

 

I just must be stooped...sorry.

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He has one round to account for . It may be a hit , it may be a miss and it may be unfired . Pick any one . Yes if you go by the letter of the rules you can say you have one unfired round and one miss . That is why this has gone on for 5 pages . But that was not the intent of the rule . It was about round count to complete the stage . We have always known that because if it was 10 static targets and 9 in a row get hit and the last round does not go off we would score one miss and not one miss and one unfired round . Something about knockdowns and / or free misses has some confused .

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He has one round to account for . It may be a hit , it may be a miss and it may be unfired . Pick any one . Yes if you go by the letter of the rules you can say you have one unfired round and one miss . That is why this has gone on for 5 pages . But that was not the intent of the rule . It was about round count to complete the stage . We have always known that because if it was 10 static targets and 9 in a row get hit and the last round does not go off we would score one miss and not one miss and one unfired round . Something about knockdowns and / or free misses has some confused .

It's 10 shots to hit 6.

 

The 4 "Extra" rounds are there to make up for a miss. Before the make-up rounds go down range, the miss is on the books. The make up rounds must go down range. Hopefully, one of them will erase the previous miss...

 

It's not a standard round. It's a round that can erase a miss...a miss that is already sitting on the "books".

 

At least that's how I see it.

 

But then again...I'm just a stoopid unknowledgeable cowboy shooter.

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Far from stoopid and been doing this longer and better than I . When you start a stage you are clean . You don't have any possible misses until you have more targets to hit than bullets to hit them with ( lets not forget the possibility of a reload) . Free misses means that . There was NO possible misses untill four hit the dirt . Now when #5 hit the dirt or squibs etc. now we have our first and only miss .

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Far from stoopid and been doing this longer and better than I . When you start a stage you are clean . You don't have any possible misses until you have more targets to hit than bullets to hit them with ( lets not forget the possibility of a reload) . Free misses means that . There was NO possible misses untill four hit the dirt . Now when #5 hit the dirt or squibs etc. now we have our first and only miss .

And herein lies the difference in opinions.

 

In this case, the shooter has 4 shots to clean up misses. That's how I see it. It's a gift...that isn't really possible without using KD's...otherwise, if using static targets you'd have to poll the spotters for targets missed before you could clean them up.

 

I also see entering a 10-10-4 stage has having 24 misses...it's my job to hit all the targets and eliminate the misses...or bad guys...

 

Phantom

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Okay , 5 hits 4 free and one miss = 10

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Wait a second there my "borg-like" friend... you mean that at the beep on every stage I start with 24 misses, and only thru the magic of combustion, expanding gases and the reactive nature of steel when struck with lead do I lessen that number? I've been doing the spotting mission all wrong for 27 years!

 

"Free miss" stages are a pecularity of this game... but let's not penalize the shooter for the stage writer's whimsy. I am reminded of the definition of "engage"... You can fire a round at a target to have that round considered as "engaging" that target. You can attempt to fire that round to be counted as "engaging" that target, or you can NOT fire, nor make an attempt to fire, neither of which can be considered as "engaging" that target. For which you could be penalized the "unfired round" penalty, but not the miss associated with it.

 

I shoot nine times at an array of six targets and am to put 4 on a single plate. I shoot 9 of the shots, all true and ring steel, but, losing count I quickly holster and pick the next arm and begin that sequence. I have, on every occasion that I can recall been charged with that unfired round in my revolver. But, not at any time have I been charged with a "miss" in addition to the "unfired round". For I have HIT every target I've shot at, but having an unfired round has a penalty equal to that miss. While it's often stated "... plus one miss for the unfired round..." It is not "...one miss plus 5 seconds for an unfired round."

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And herein lies the difference in opinions.

 

In this case, the shooter has 4 shots to clean up misses. That's how I see it. It's a gift...that isn't really possible without using KD's...otherwise, if using static targets you'd have to poll the spotters for targets missed before you could clean them up.

 

I also see entering a 10-10-4 stage has having 24 misses...it's my job to hit all the targets and eliminate the misses...or bad guys...

 

Phantom

As a shooter, I fully agree and concur with your approach. However, as a spotter, I say that the vast majority of us don't have enough fingers & toes to accurately keep count in such a fashion.

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Wait a second there my "borg-like" friend... you mean that at the beep on every stage I start with 24 misses, and only thru the magic of combustion, expanding gases and the reactive nature of steel when struck with lead do I lessen that number? I've been doing the spotting mission all wrong for 27 years!

 

"Free miss" stages are a pecularity of this game... but let's not penalize the shooter for the stage writer's whimsy. I am reminded of the definition of "engage"... You can fire a round at a target to have that round considered as "engaging" that target. You can attempt to fire that round to be counted as "engaging" that target, or you can NOT fire, nor make an attempt to fire, neither of which can be considered as "engaging" that target. For which you could be penalized the "unfired round" penalty, but not the miss associated with it.

 

I shoot nine times at an array of six targets and am to put 4 on a single plate. I shoot 9 of the shots, all true and ring steel, but, losing count I quickly holster and pick the next arm and begin that sequence. I have, on every occasion that I can recall been charged with that unfired round in my revolver. But, not at any time have I been charged with a "miss" in addition to the "unfired round". For I have HIT every target I've shot at, but having an unfired round has a penalty equal to that miss. While it's often stated "... plus one miss for the unfired round..." It is not "...one miss plus 5 seconds for an unfired round."

The difference here is that the stage instructions stated that any KDs left standing were to be counted as misses. In your experience, have you ever seen a static target stage instruction state that any un - hit targets will be counted as misses? Generally a miss can not occur without firing a round at a target but this stage was different, everybody started with 6 misses and had 10 chances to eliminate them.

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