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Grouchy Spike

What's the Call?

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Shooter #1 dumps his first five rounds into the back berm...then KD's the targets with the remaining 5 rounds = NO MISSES

 

Ok, but here is the situation that ALWAYS confuses me.

 

Shooter #2 jacks out his first five rounds...then KD's the targets with the remaining 5 rounds...

Are you assigning him clean or 5 misses?

 

I understand perfectly (as I believe most do) the rounds AFTER the knockdowns all have to hit something to not be a miss.

It is the rounds in the interim between 1st round fired and last knockdown falling that creates the scoring inconsistency and debate between "Miss" and "Unfired" round..

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Ok, but here is the situation that ALWAYS confuses me.

 

Shooter #2 jacks out his first five rounds...then KD's the targets with the remaining 5 rounds...

Are you assigning him clean or 5 misses?

 

I understand perfectly (as I believe most do) the rounds AFTER the knockdowns all have to hit something to not be a miss.

It is the rounds in the interim between 1st round fired and last knockdown falling that creates the scoring inconsistency and debate between "Miss" and "Unfired" round..

 

ifn his rifle is 1st firearm, I'm gona give him a quick STOP and restart ifn he starts jacking out them first 5 rounds.

 

;)

 

EDIT: OOPS, didn't mean to get to page 8.

 

 

..........Widder

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Ifn ya don't actually fire the round count for the stage, you're opening yourself to penalties for unfired rounds. (I think)

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Ok, but here is the situation that ALWAYS confuses me.

 

Shooter #2 jacks out his first five rounds...then KD's the targets with the remaining 5 rounds...

Are you assigning him clean or 5 misses?

 

FIVE "5-second penalties"... ref: post #240 ... misses for rounds FIRED don't count on the KD's...the "dropped/ejected rounds" 5-second penalty applies whether the targets are KD or stationary.

The shooter has the OPTION to replace the ejected rounds (which would be designated for the "dump" target since all of the KD's are down) and negate the penalties.

 

I understand perfectly (as I believe most do) the rounds AFTER the knockdowns all have to hit something to not be a miss.

It is the rounds in the interim between 1st round fired and last knockdown falling that creates the scoring inconsistency and debate between "Miss" and "Unfired" round..

 

 

24. Ammunition dropped by a shooter in the course of reloading any firearm during a stage or "ejected" from any firearm is considered "dead" and may not be recovered until the shooter completes the course of fire.
The round must be replaced from the shooter’s person or other area as required by stage description or if the round is not fired it is counted as a missed shot.

SHB p.23 / RO1 p.19

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Welcome home wolfie!!

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Welcome home wolfie!!

 

Thanks!

 

I THINK it's good to be back on line...I had "read only" access while incarcerated...had to make sure not to check the Wire(s) in the AM before they came in to check my BP (blood pressure...not "black powder") ;)

 

I also want to thank those of you who covered for me in my absence. ^_^

 

...and, FWIW, I've added a few more names to "the list". :ph34r:

 

:P

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Thanks!

 

I THINK it's good to be back on line...I had "read only" access while incarcerated...had to make sure not to check the Wire(s) in the AM before they came in to check my BP (blood pressure...not "black powder") ;)

 

I also want to thank those of you who covered for me in my absence. ^_^

 

...and, FWIW, I've added a few more names to "the list". :ph34r:

 

:P

 

I tried to warn some of these onery and heathenistic Pards but they just won't listen to me.

 

AND now its tooooo late. They have been added to 'The List'.

 

p.s. - It is good to have you back with us PWB. Here's wishing you good health and good friends.

 

 

..........Widder (heard rumor a couple years back that I was on 'That' list also. Maybe ifn I win the Big Lotto, I can buy my way off).

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I tried to warn some of these onery and heathenistic Pards but they just won't listen to me.

 

AND now its tooooo late. They have been added to 'The List'.

 

p.s. - It is good to have you back with us PWB. Here's wishing you good health and good friends.

 

 

..........Widder (heard rumor a couple years back that I was on 'That' list also. Maybe ifn I win the Big Lotto, I can buy my way off).

 

Thanks!

 

When/if you do, feel free to make me an offer...but it ain't gonna be cheap! ;)

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I'm on a list? Little ol' me? Really?

 

Go figure, and folks said I'd never amount to much. :D

 

Welcome Back PWB

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Is it a hypothetical list?

 

pbcc

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Is it a hypothetical list?

 

pbcc

 

No...it's a reelio trulio one. :ph34r:

 

(actually there's more than one...there's also a very short list of special individuals to whom I make sure I type responses slloooowwwly so they don't read them so fast that they skip seeing the point)

 

:P^_^

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Good to have you back PWB...even if its to cat herd an 8 page discussion :blink:

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Phantom.....to quote you......"Oy"

I wish to opine and qu0ate Krazy Kajun, quoten Phantom

"Oy"

 

PS

"OY"

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I wish to opine and qu0ate Krazy Kajun, quoten Phantom

"Oy"

 

PS

"OY"

:P

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If you have 10 rounds to clear a 5 target star and you cleared it why would you reload and if you did what are you going to shoot at . I shot on your posse in SC and I jacked a round on a rifle run ( not uncommon for me ) and I was given one miss . I was not also hit with one unfired round for 5 sec . The rules state the a standing knockdown is a miss only because you can hit one and it may not go down .

Hey MW good to talk to ya'.........because that's SASS rules. Not mine but that's the way it is. I know this because I write stages with KD's and interactive targets all the time. I got caught making the wrong call's years ago so it was an embarrassing lesson to learn it that way. But as they say the hard lesson learned is the one you remember.

 

I shoulda' went to the end before responding......lol. Welcome back PW

 

Now I'm just back to being confused again.

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Hey MW good to talk to ya'.........because that's SASS rules. Not mine but that's the way it is. I know this because I write stages with KD's and interactive targets all the time. I got caught making the wrong call's years ago so it was an embarrassing lesson to learn it that way. But as they say the hard lesson learned is the one you remember.

 

I shoulda' went to the end before responding......lol. Welcome back PW

 

Now I'm just back to being confused again.

A familiar state for several of us folks runnin' the timer!

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I have given this whole thing a lot of thought. There are three rules in the rule books that cause me to call two five second penalties on this post and I think they could be fixed fairly easy. I don't think we need to add another rule, just fix the ones that are there. They are;

 

ROI, Page 14 -"2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count. Any knockdown target still standing once the shooter has engaged the next sequence of the stage will be counted as a miss."

 

Change this to read "2. All knockdown targets (shotgun, rifle, or revolver) must go down to count as hit."

 

ROI, Page 16 - "10. Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification."

 

Change to read "10. Leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a "No Call" unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification."

 

This should not matter if it was "inadvertent" or not. The real intent of the rule was/is to prevent a MSV. No need to say it is a miss. That is already covered on the definition of a miss.

 

ROI, Page 24 - "5-SECOND PENALTIES

 Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A ―miss‖ is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural ―trap‖ by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.
 Each missed target.
 Each unfired round.
 Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.
 Each target hit with ―illegally acquired‖ ammunition.
 To help understand this concept, a ―MISS FLOW CHART‖ is found in Appendix C. It is also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.”
Change this to read: "5-SECOND PENALTIES
 Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A ―miss‖ is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural ―trap‖ by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.
 Each missed target or each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.
 Each target hit with ―illegally acquired‖ ammunition.
 To help understand this concept, a ―MISS FLOW CHART‖ is found in Appendix C. It is also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.”
We don't need the unfired round line. That is already covered by the definition of a miss. By deleting it removes the possibility that it could be both. Also by combining "Each missed target or each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake." It removes the possibility that it could be implying that you could get both.

With everything computer based, once these clarifications were approved. the rule books could be updated and the revisions posted with only a couple hours work.

 

I know, it probably won't happen, it is too easy.

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I have given this whole thing a lot of thought. There are three rules in the rule books that cause me to call two five second penalties on this post and I think they could be fixed fairly easy. I don't think we need to add another rule, just fix the ones that are there. They are;

 

...

 

We don't need the unfired round line. That is already covered by the definition of a miss. By deleting it removes the possibility that it could be both. Also by combining "Each missed target or each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake." It removes the possibility that it could be implying that you could get both.

With everything computer based, once these clarifications were approved. the rule books could be updated and the revisions posted with only a couple hours work.

 

I know, it probably won't happen, it is too easy.

 

Please ref: post #234

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Please ref: post #234

 

Wow - not only are you back - you are back in FULL FORCE! :)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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If the shooter in the OP had replaced the defective (unfired) round and FIRED it at the KD & failed to KD it, he would still have a MISS for the standing target + the time for the reload.

Both of you have a CHOICE whether to reload/replace a defective/ejected round to take down the target(s);

OR take the 5-second penalty for each UNFIRED round.

 

Please ref the "Shooter's Choice" link above for the various options available.

A few more examples:

 

10 shots to KD five targets...misses on KD's don't count...remaining rounds after KD's are down go on a stationary "dump" target. Misses on the dump count.

 

Shooter #1 dumps his first five rounds into the back berm...then KD's the targets with the remaining 5 rounds = NO MISSES

 

Shooter #2 KD's four targets with the first 4 rounds; dumps five into the dirt; then KD's the last target with his 10th shot = NO MISSES

 

Shooter #3 has a squib on his first round (rifle not first gun on stage) = TEN "5-second penalties" for "unfired rounds"; with NO additional penalties for the 5 still-standing KD targets.

 

Shooter #4 KD's the plates with first 5 rounds...fires the remaining 5 rounds at the "dump" target & misses it 5x = 5 MISSES

 

Shooter #5 KD's the plates with first 5 rounds...jacks out #6; then #7 squibs = 5 MISSES

....

....

....

Shooter #6 (using revolver) KD's targets with first 5 rounds; has a squib with first shot from second revolver while engaging the "dump target". Makes firearm safe...unloads/reloads first pistol; fires 5 hits on the stationary target = NO MISSES

 

 

 

Ok…I understand all those options…But

 

 

 

Two shooters (A & B)

 

They’re running neck and neck coming to the last stage…lets simplify it so I don’t have to type so much.

 

Say it’s a really short stage…One pistol only…5 shots to get 3 KDs and a dump plate for any remaining rounds…misses on KD don’t count if all KDs go down.

 

Shooter A fires 4 quick shots…2 KD go down 2 misses…shooter now takes careful aim and fires at remaining KD…click, click, click, click, click, click, sets gun down…calls malfunction.

 

Result of stage for shooter A…one KD standing and one round unfired. Shooter took 3 sec. to fire first 4 rounds…he

took another 3 sec. to fire a carefully aimed shot at remaining KD but that’s not counted because no shots were recorded after the first 4 shots.

 

His time for stage…3 sec plus 1 miss for remaining KD still standing…this shooter isn’t required to count the unfired round as a miss = 8 sec. stage

 

 

 

Shooter B fires 4 quick shots…2 KD go down, 1 miss and 1 click (bad primer)…shooter now takes careful aim and fires at remaining KD and takes it down. Result of stage for shooter B…all KDs down and one unfired round.

 

Shooter took 3 sec. to fire first 4 shots and another 3 sec . to fire a carefully aimed shot at the remaining KD and cleaned the stage and he also has one unfired round …but he is required to count his as a miss.

 

His time for stage…6 sec plus 1 miss for unfired round (this shooter has to count the unfired round) = 11 sec. stage

 

So even thought shooter A left a target standing…by not making him take a miss for the unfired round you have

penalized shooter B who cleaned the stage.

 

 

This is why I think that both shooters (to be fair) should get a miss for the unfired round.

 

 

 

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I git a kick when people say it will only take a couple hours work....

 

1, unpaid hours!

 

2. they have no idea how much work does go into it!

 

3. they have no idea how much work has gone into it.

 

4. nothing is FOOL proof!

 

5. and someone else always has a better way!

 

6. oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

pbcc

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I think you mean 235.

No...I meant 234

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I git a kick when people say it will only take a couple hours work....

 

1, unpaid hours!

 

2. they have no idea how much work does go into it!

 

3. they have no idea how much work has gone into it.

 

4. nothing is FOOL proof!

 

5. and someone else always has a better way!

 

6. oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

pbcc

Deleted

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Even tho' Buck called me a "name", I'll persevere, maybe if we think of it like this: "An unfired round cannot cause a miss, but will be assessed a 5-second penalty per unfired round." Or maybe", just for Fantum..."... an individual target can be scored in one of 3 ways, 1 - "hit" (or down for KDs), 2 - "miss" (or not down for KDs), or 3 - "unfired round", but not any combination of thereof."

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I git a kick when people say it will only take a couple hours work....

 

1, unpaid hours!

 

2. they have no idea how much work does go into it!

 

3. they have no idea how much work has gone into it.

 

4. nothing is FOOL proof!

 

5. and someone else always has a better way!

 

6. oy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

pbcc

 

And just when you perfect the fool proof system, they come out with an new and improved fool.

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Riverview Rattler

 

It seems you captured the ruling correctly in your example.

 

But shooter "B" could have fired immediately (not taken 3 sec to aim carefully), missed the last knockdown and found himself in the same position as shooter "A" ---> with one target standing and one unfired round.

 

Fair is in the eyes of the beholder. The Rule is just the rule.

 

In Post 234, PWB said the RO Committee will write something to deal with the issue.

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Riverview Rattler

 

It seems you captured the ruling correctly in your example.

 

But shooter "B" could have fired immediately (not taken 3 sec to aim carefully), missed the last knockdown and found himself in the same position as shooter "A" ---> with one target standing and one unfired round.

 

Fair is in the eyes of the beholder. The Rule is just the rule.

 

In Post 234, PWB said the RO Committee will write something to deal with the issue.

Thanks for your reply...

 

But if the shooter missed the KD with the 5 shot, wouldn't he get two misses...it appears to that you only get a 1for2 if the unfired round happens on the last KD.

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Heyya PB - glad to see ya!!!!

 

In this specific case, I see a problem in that there were only 6 KD's and one had 10 to kd them. In my example, if the shooter shot the first 5 shots and kd'd 5 of the 6, then with his 6th shot missed kd no. 6, at that point the shooter has one miss and 4 unfired rounds. So if their gun broke at that point they would eat 5 total misses. The remaining four are acting in a role of Miss Erasers...if you will...but you have to send 'em down range.

 

I see this situation much differently then a 10 kd with 10 shots.

 

Phantom

Glad to see Palewolf back again.

 

Phantom - Had all the kds gone down, it would still be a miss due to the unfired round. The anomaly is that the one unfired round matched up with the standing target, which was engaged. Seems simple enough, unfired rounds only count as misses if what you're shooting at counts as a hit. The dump target was the only candidate for that criteria, and the shooter had no rounds for the dump. Had the round been fired, it was to be at the remaining plate.

 

Good to see Widder has made this get to Page 8!

 

CR

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A miss.

A unfired round.

That spotter said something.

I tripped on that rock.

Sun was in my eye's.

 

 

 

Can anyone guess why I did not want to be a PM at the Regional this year. :huh::blink:

Heck or anywhere for that matter.

Getting to where I don't even like to take the timer. :wacko:

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A miss.

A unfired round.

That spotter said something.

I tripped on that rock.

Sun was in my eye's.

 

 

 

Can anyone guess why I did not want to be a PM at the Regional this year. :huh::blink:

Heck or anywhere for that matter.

Getting to where I don't even like to take the timer. :wacko:

AA,

Sure understand, sometimes being TO is not all that great, however as this, and many others threads have shown, there are often different views/calls in mostly rare cases. IMO, the TO makes the best call they feel is right in the quickest time he/she can (or declare call is on hold), and for me, a BIG emphasis on BOD to shooter is given in call making. If the TO finds out latter in the day, next week, or next year, that his/her call was wrong then it just happened, as long as he/she felt right about it at time then live with and if a lesson is learned that is a good thing also....life is about lessons.

 

It has actually taken about the eight pages for me to finially come to an understanding on the rule of OP.....lesson learned.

 

bb

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A miss.

A unfired round.

That spotter said something.

I tripped on that rock.

Sun was in my eye's.

 

 

 

Can anyone guess why I did not want to be a PM at the Regional this year. :huh::blink:

Heck or anywhere for that matter.

Getting to where I don't even like to take the timer. :wacko:

you have hit the nail on the head

I agree with you 101%

this here CAS thing is a hobby, suposed to be fun, and its run by volenteers, and we dont give anything away

not even a conastoga wagon

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I figured it out.

 

It's one miss if the shooter is in a category that is other then mine...2 if we're in the same category.

 

Got it.

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I get it.

 

One, two, what a crew..

Three, four, please no more.

Five, six, what a fix.

Seven, eight, wait...wait.

Nine, ten, start again.

I like this. :lol:

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