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Grouchy Spike

What's the Call?

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Scenario calls 10 pistol rounds. Shooter is to engage six pistols knockdowns, any order, and when all knockdowns are down to dump any remaining rounds on the dump target. Knockdowns left standing, and misses on the dump target are counted as a miss.

 

Cowboy engages the knockdowns, leaves one standing, and has one misfire in the pistol which he does not reload, so he's fired only nine rounds.

 

TO and spotters agree on two misses, one for the knockdown left standing, and one for the unfired round.

 

Shooter appeals to the MD for one miss, and the appeal is upheld that the penalty is ONE miss.

 

What's your call?

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How accurately you have retold the stage instructions will be instrumental in determining how to score the shooter.

 

1. If the instructions really were "shoot the knockdowns until all down, then dump remaining shots on the dump target" (note, these instructions require makeups on the knockdowns that don't go down), then when the shooter hit the dump target with one knockdown still standing, he earned himself a P. And he did not fire a tenth round due to a malfunction. So, a P and a round-not-fired-counted-as-a-miss for this first set of instructions.

 

2..If the instructions really said "shoot one shot at each knockdown (no makeups), then the remaining shots on the dump target" the shooter earned the miss and a round-not-fired-counted-as-a-miss, or 2 misses as the range crew originally called it. (I got a strong hunch that this is the way the instructions actually were written.)

 

If the shooter is trying to pull the wool over the MD by arguing that he DID shoot all his remaining (live) rounds at the dump target, so he does not get the round-not-fired penalty, he is wrong, wrong, wrong. And so is the MD for not sticking with the crew's call. At the point that a cartridge did not fire, the shooter "earns" the requirement to either load an extra round (then or later), or take the miss for round not fired.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

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GJ,

Aren't you reading more into the situation than the OP describes? He makes no mention of any rounds fired at the dump plate. So no potential for your "P" scenario.

 

I hear the argument for a miss (target left up) and a 5 sec for unfired round. But what if there were 10 KD targets and you put down nine with nine shots and had a misfire on the last one. Is that scenario stil a miss and a 5 sec for unfired round? Or taken to a simpler extreme, stage has 10 plates and instructions say to one shot on each. You hit the first nine but your last shot is a misfire. In that scenario is the shooter assessed a miss AND a penalty for unfired round?

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1 miss for the plate and 5 seconds for unfired round in pistol. No other way to call it. MD needs to take a refresher RO Course.

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Actually I have a slightly different view from GJ. It's never mentioned whether the miss occurred while shooting at the dump target. The shooter could have engaged the knockdowns with nine rounds and failed to clean them, never engaging the dump target. In that case it's just two misses, one for the still standing target and one for the unfired round. If the shooter did shoot the dump target and the stage instructions were to clear the knockdowns first then the shooter has earned a P.

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Follow the Miss Flow Chart.

 

MM is correct. One miss (5 seconds) for plate left standing and one unfired round (5 seconds).

 

An unfired round is not a miss, it is just scored the same as a miss (5 seconds).

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1 miss for the plate and 5 seconds for unfired round in pistol. No other way to call it. MD needs to take a refresher RO Course.

+1

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1 miss for plate left standing and 5 second penalty for the unfired round.

 

+2

Reckon we're assuming he missed with the other rounds fired at the knockdown plates..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin... I know... misses on the knockdowns don't count unless they don't go down :blush:

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From Grouchy Spike's OP - "Shooter is to engage six pistols knockdowns, any order, and when all knockdowns are down to dump any remaining rounds on the dump target." Operative verbage - "when all KD are down" WHat GS did not tell us - in the course of fire did the shooter have misses on the KD's with first 9 rounds - finally knocking 5 down leaving 1 standing with 1 round still live (round 10) and round 10 then misfired,- 1 miss. IF the shooter fired 6 rounds at KDs leaving 1 standing, then fired 3 at dump target and went back to pick up the standing KD and round misfired and he did not reload. - then a P and a miss and one unfired round scored as a miss.

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Gotta be obvious that the shooter never fired at the dump, as he never knocked down all the KDs. One standing = one miss. Unfired round = one miss. No P. Benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter. Let's try to find ways to minimize the damage, not to pile on.

 

CR

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Gotta be obvious that the shooter never fired at the dump, as he never knocked down all the KDs. One standing = one miss. Unfired round = one miss. No P. Benefit of the doubt always goes to the shooter. Let's try to find ways to minimize the damage, not to pile on.

 

CR

There are two common ways to write instructions for this type of stage. One requires all the KDs to be down before moving to the dump. One allows no makeups so you only get one shot at each KD. We still haven't got the OP to establish which way the stage was written yet.

 

(And, I'll bet there were some shots fired at the dump target, so there's a good chance your claim above is not obvious.) IF the shooter never got off of the KDs, then of course there is no P call.

 

In fact, there is VERY LITTLE obvious yet, and there is no piling penalties on yet, unless the OP will tell us exactly how the shooters were told to shoot the stage.

 

Didn't know the snow could get so deep when it is this hot outside. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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let me try to clarify this post!

 

of course I do not have the stage instructions in front of me - but as jeff cooper said - I was there!

 

the stage instruction said to engage the falling plates till down then put the remaining rounds on the dump target.

 

the shooter fired 9 rounds on the knockdowns then the 10 round did not go off.

it was relayed to president that he went around at least twice trying to get the round to go off.

 

so the shooter shoot 9 rounds at the falling plate targets,

none at the dump target

the shooter was still trying to get the 10th round to fire at the correct target

had a gun malfunction

 

 

 

how in the world can you give the shooter anything other than 1 miss?

how did he get a procedural?

how can 1 round cause 2 misses?

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A sidetrack: The situation Garrison Joe brings up reminds me of why, in my opinion, stage writers, if specifying shotgun target order, should say, "Engaged in such and such (specified) order. Makeups may be made up at any time." In a perfect world, similar language should have been used here simply to avoid the strict interpretation that all knockdowns must be down before going to the dump plate. This could end up being a P trap for a shooter whose 6th round hits a knockdown and doesn't take it down, or shoots at it and misses, but in the meantime has gone on to the dump plate. I don't think most people think about the unlikely possibilities...that happen.

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let me try to clarify this post!

 

of course I do not have the stage instructions in front of me - but as jeff cooper said - I was there!

 

the stage instruction said to engage the falling plates till down then put the remaining rounds on the dump target.

 

the shooter fired 9 rounds on the knockdowns then the 10 round did not go off.

it was relayed to president that he went around at least twice trying to get the round to go off.

 

so the shooter shoot 9 rounds at the falling plate targets,

none at the dump target

the shooter was still trying to get the 10th round to fire at the correct target

had a gun malfunction

 

 

 

how in the world can you give the shooter anything other than 1 miss?

how did he get a procedural?

how can 1 round cause 2 misses?

It's not the one round causing two misses, it is 1 miss for leaving knock down up and 1 miss for the unfired round, and now that you clarified the post NO P anywhere to be found, but the OP was not real clear.

 

KK

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There are two common ways to write instructions for this type of stage. One requires all the KDs to be down before moving to the dump. One allows no makeups so you only get one shot at each KD. We still haven't got the OP to establish which way the stage was written yet.

 

(And, I'll bet there were some shots fired at the dump target, so there's a good chance your claim above is not obvious.) IF the shooter never got off of the KDs, then of course there is no P call.

 

In fact, there is VERY LITTLE obvious yet, and there is no piling penalties on yet, unless the OP will tell us exactly how the shooters were told to shoot the stage.

 

Didn't know the snow could get so deep when it is this hot outside. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

I agree....and believe there is a chance that a P was deserved, or not deserved, if we knew if the dump target was or was not "engaged". With a little more detail to OP then I do not believe we would be "piling on", just giving our take on correct call. The way I see the stage is that knockdowns would need to be shot first before ever considering the dump, but then maybe my way would not be everyone else's way. However if that was the way OP shot it then his unfired round was his last chance at the knockdown standing so only one miss for that knockdown per stage instructions. I consider a misfire (at the knockdown) a "fired round" that missed. (I know that sounds strange, but I know what I am thinking.....and I do not want to get into the discussion of ENGAGE.)

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It's not the one round causing two misses, it is 1 miss for leaving knock down up and 1 miss for the unfired round, and now that you clarified the post NO P anywhere to be found, but the OP was not real clear.

 

KK

KK,

This is very good point....and perhaps a better analysis than mine. Thus shooter goes to ULT with round in revolver-MISS-and a knockdown standing-MISS assuming no shots on dump. I stand corrected.

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Very interesting, I can see the argument for just one miss, HOWEVER, as the shooter had the option to reload one for the round that did not go off (and chose not to do so) I believe that two misses is the correct call.

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Gentlemen:

Consider for a moment a different scenario where there were 10 targets and 10 revolver rounds to be fired.

The shooter hits 9 targets and the 10th round fails to fire.

How would you score this?

Another question to ask regarding the OP is:

Did the shooter inadvertently leave an unfired round in his revolver?

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let me try to clarify this post!

 

of course I do not have the stage instructions in front of me - but as jeff cooper said - I was there!

 

the stage instruction said to engage the falling plates till down then put the remaining rounds on the dump target.

 

the shooter fired 9 rounds on the knockdowns then the 10 round did not go off.

it was relayed to president that he went around at least twice trying to get the round to go off.

 

so the shooter shoot 9 rounds at the falling plate targets,

none at the dump target

the shooter was still trying to get the 10th round to fire at the correct target

had a gun malfunction

 

 

 

how in the world can you give the shooter anything other than 1 miss?

how did he get a procedural?

how can 1 round cause 2 misses?

From page 23 or RO1
PENALTY OVERVIEW
5-SECOND PENALTIES
• Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.
A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate
type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean
miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be
avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult
to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.
• Each missed target.
• Each unfired round.
• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.
• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.
Here's some food for thought: Imagine if the shooter had a clean match going and decided in order to save it, he/she would load a round in their pistol to replace the round that did not go off (which they could) and as a result is able to fire ten rounds. If they hit it, they remain clean. If they miss it, they get a miss...but they have fired the "required" ten rounds, so no miss for an unfired round.
In this situation, since the shooter fired nine rounds and only knocked down five targets, they actually missed four times, only one of of those misses counted because only one target remained standing. The second miss was for the tenth round that did not get fired.

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From page 23 or RO1
PENALTY OVERVIEW
5-SECOND PENALTIES
• Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.
A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate
type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean
miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be
avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult
to determine the shooter’s intent when engaging the targets.
• Each missed target.
• Each unfired round.
• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.
• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.
Here's some food for thought: Imagine if the shooter had a clean match going and decided in order to save it, he/she would load a round in their pistol to replace the round that did not go off (which they could) and as a result is able to fire ten rounds. If they hit it, they remain clean. If they miss it, they get a miss...but they have fired the "required" ten rounds, so no miss for an unfired round.
In this situation, since the shooter fired nine rounds and only knocked down five targets, they actually missed four times, only one of of those misses counted because only one target remained standing. The second miss was for the tenth round that did not get fired.

What he said. Two misses, ok one miss and one 5 second penalty for the unfired round if you prefer. Now that the OP has clarified, no chance of a P.

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Gentlemen:

Consider for a moment a different scenario where there were 10 targets and 10 revolver rounds to be fired.

The shooter hits 9 targets and the 10th round fails to fire.

How would you score this?

Another question to ask regarding the OP is:

Did the shooter inadvertently leave an unfired round in his revolver?

If they're knockdowns and the instructions state that any that any remaining standing are misses then it's a miss and a five second penalty. If they're not knockdowns then it's a five second penalty for the unfired round. Never thought of that one before, interesting......but that's what the rules say ROI page 23

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1 miss for the plate and 5 seconds for unfired round in pistol. No other way to call it. MD needs to take a refresher RO Course.

+3

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

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If they're knockdowns and the instructions state that any that any remaining standing are misses then it's a miss and a five second penalty. If they're not knockdowns then it's a five second penalty for the unfired round. Never thought of that one before, interesting......but that's what the rules say ROI page 23

So are you saying that a miss on a knockdown is scored differently than a miss on a regular plate?

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If I'm shooting my rifle at ten targets for one hit each and hit nine in a row but then jack my tenth round . If I dont reload and move on I'm getting a miss for target ten and a penalty for an unfired round ?

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So are you saying that a miss on a knockdown is scored differently than a miss on a regular plate?

No, I'm saying that a miss on a knockdown is defined differently from a miss on a regular plate. IE stage instructions that specify a knockdown left standing is a miss whereas a miss on a regular plate is failure to hit the plate. In conjunction with ROI page 23 which specifies that an unfired round is a five second penalty we get a result of a double penalty in this scenario whereas a regular plate target would not. I'm not saying I like it, nor that I agree with it, but it appears a strict interpretation yields ten seconds of penalties when a regular plate in that situation only yields five seconds.

 

If I'm shooting my rifle at ten targets for one hit each and hit nine in a row but then jack my tenth round . If I dont reload and move on I'm getting a miss for target ten and a penalty for an unfired round ?

No, because you never fired at target ten therefore you can't miss it. You simply get a five second penalty for the unfired round.

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The difference is that a knock down must fall or be scored a miss. As the shooter had 10 rounds to knock down 6 targets, he had ample opportunity to do just that, and had obviously not done so with one still standing. The unfired round is scored a 5 second penalty separately in that case.

 

Now for a ten shot rifle string on static targets, a jacked out round counts only as one 5 second penalty as the shooter could have reloaded it and attempted to hit the target.

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CB "Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally aquired ammo" No its a miss. Flow chart says nothing about shooting at target . If his ninth shot took down target five and his tenth was a missfire I still see one miss . Not trying to argue , just trying to under stand a double penalty in THIS situation . Thanks

 

 

CB , I also know that your son and many other kids shooting 22s have had this problem far more than any centerfiring shooter . We both know how hard it is to get a reload in some of those guns . I don't want to give anybody two hits for one round especially yuonguns .

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If I'm shooting my rifle at ten targets for one hit each and hit nine in a row but then jack my tenth round . If I dont reload and move on I'm getting a miss for target ten and a penalty for an unfired round ?

 

In your senerio you would only get one miss.

 

KK

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KK , I don't understand the difference . Maybe I'm just dense . In my senerio there was a miss ( according to flow chart ) and an unfired round .

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CB "Did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally aquired ammo" No its a miss. Flow chart says nothing about shooting at target . If his ninth shot took down target five and his tenth was a missfire I still see one miss . Not trying to argue , just trying to under stand a double penalty in THIS situation . Thanks

 

 

CB , I also know that your son and many other kids shooting 22s have had this problem far more than any centerfiring shooter . We both know how hard it is to get a reload in some of those guns . I don't want to give anybody two hits for one round especially yuonguns .

The OP said a knockdown left standing counted as a miss, so 1 miss, then he had an unfired round another 5 seconds so a total of 10 seconds in penalties.

 

KK

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KK , I don't understand the difference . Maybe I'm just dense . In my senerio there was a miss ( according to flow chart ) and an unfired round .

your miss is really a 5 second penalty for unfired round.

 

KK

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Not according to flow chart . This is what I'm getting at . The rules as written seem to have two penalties for one round and I have never seen it scored that way .

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I don't mean to offend anyone, but IMHO the flow chart is a useful, but limited tool. I personally don't use it. I keep highlighted and tabbed copies of the SHB, ROI and ROII in my cart and review them a couple of times a month. Furthermore, the flow chart isn't even applicable to your scenario as you didn't have a miss, you had an unfired round which is a 5 second penalty, not a miss. I realize the first part of the flow chart decision tree doesn't capture this possibility, hence my opinion that it's a limited tool.

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CB , I know that there are holes in the flow chart but that is the opening statment and second sentence in five second penalties . How do we adjust that and what did you replace it with and based on what info . Thanks

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