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Grouchy Spike

What's the Call?

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Yeah, so? I see #46 and Rowdy is explaining how it's not a penalty.... it's scored as an UNFIRED ROUND. Penalties carry forward on reshoots, etc.

 

Shooter missed 5 times on 5 targets.

 

1) miss for plate left standing.

 

1) 5 sec for unfired round

 

Shooter CHOSE not to reload and shoot at the plate left standing which they were free to do just like any other string.

 

 

?

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I think this is the common sense answer. Unfortunately common sense can sometimes be in short supply. From my perspective the rules as currently written do not lead to that conclusion. Perhaps a catchall phrase (like a miss can't cause a P) would solve this. Perhaps an unfired round left in a gun (not under the hammer) can only result in a single penalty. That eliminates the conflict between the stage instructions for knockdowns and the rule for unfired rounds.

CB , that is the problem . Some rules just need a tweek to make sense .

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Don't confuse the situation. If the shooter shot 9x's at 10 KD's and left 6 standing, whether he reloaded or not he had 6 misses.

I'm not confusing the situation. But you are correct any KD left standing is a miss. I don't think anyone anywhere in this thread denies that. So what is the point of your post?

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I guess I'm just not seeing the logic...

 

In this case, where there is clearly a miss as outlined in the stage instructions (any plate left standing is a miss) and there is clearly an unfired round which is scored as a 5 second penalty in every other case, yet only one of them applies?

 

While on the other hand, an overloaded rifle shows up at the unloading table with a round on the carrier and one in the tube, which appears to me to be a symptom of a single problem yet it was determined to be two penalties.

 

makes me think that next time I write a stage with a plate rack I am going to be darn good and sure to spell out exactly what is expected, and what the penalty is for not following the stage instructions.

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I agree with Pales Wolfs example, I was hesitant to post but I never understood how one round can cause 2 penaltys, even though the stage description allowed for misses on knockdowns, you cant tell whether his bad round was intended for the knockdown left standing, so I would say one miss only. I had a round not fire in my revolver at EOT and the TO was a RO instructor, round was not under hammer and I was only scored one miss, not a miss for the target I did not hit and one for unfired round.

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I think a lot of us are saying that a single round shouldn't cause two penalties, but as the rules are currently written it's a defendable conclusion that it can.

 

I would defend it as follows:

 

Was there a round left in the gun? Yes, assess a five second penalty per page 23 ROI.

 

Was there a knockdown left standing? Yes, assess a miss per stage instructions.

 

As I said before I don't like that conclusion, but I can't see a rule I can reference to defend only assessing one of the penalties.

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I think a lot of us are saying that a single round shouldn't cause two penalties, but as the rules are currently written it's a defendable conclusion that it can.

 

I would defend it as follows:

 

Was there a round left in the gun? Yes, assess a five second penalty per page 23 ROI.

 

Was there a knockdown left standing? Yes, assess a miss per stage instructions.

 

As I said before I don't like that conclusion, but I can't see a rule I can reference to defend only assessing one of the penalties.

Captain would you score this the same way if it were not knockdowns and just plates, in otherwords would you have awarded a miss for the target not hit and the unfired round...just wondering...also this has been a great learner thread...

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CB , not meant to offend but that should be an argument until an RO committiee member rules on such . Then it should be added to your notes that you have taken from many " whats the call " post on the wire and be used for future refrence .

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I think a lot of us are saying that a single round shouldn't cause two penalties, but as the rules are currently written it's a defendable conclusion that it can.

 

I would defend it as follows:

 

Was there a round left in the gun? Yes, assess a five second penalty per page 23 ROI.

 

Was there a knockdown left standing? Yes, assess a miss per stage instructions.

 

As I said before I don't like that conclusion, but I can't see a rule I can reference to defend only assessing one of the penalties.

+1...duhh.... :P

 

Think of it this way. Next shooter does EXACTLY the same thing except reloads and shoots the plate. 1) if he misses he just added his reload time to the timer AND still has a miss 2) if he hits it then he's clean but adds his reload time to the timer.

 

In both instances the shooter added reload time to the timer. PLUS, the jeopardy for the miss or hit.

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+1...duhh.... :P

 

Think of it this way. Next shooter does EXACTLY the same thing except reloads and shoots the plate. 1) if he misses he just added his reload time to the timer AND still has a miss 2) if he hits it then he's clean but adds his reload time to the timer.

 

In both instances the shooter added reload time to the timer. PLUS, the jeopardy for the miss or hit.

And that is why many people don't reload . If you just want to stay clean or know you can reload and hit in under 5 sec then go for it . If not you get your five sec penalty not ten .

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A shooter finishes a stage and is called to have missed 2 targets. At the unloading table it is discovered that he has a live round in a revolver. Therefore it is apparent he did not fire all 5 rounds and he is given a miss for the round inadvertently left in the revolver. He is awarded a total of three misses because he did not hit 3 targets. 2 targets missed plus one not shot at—hence the live round inadvertently left in the revolver. It is found that he did not shoot at one target because he still has a live round inadvertently left in his revolver not an extra penalty but a penalty for the target he did not shoot at.


A shooter finishes a stage and has missed 2 targets plus he had a bad round. He went around 2 times trying to get the round to discharge
but it did not and he chooses to take the miss. He will get 3 misses—2 misses for the targets missed and 1 miss for the bad round. There is no extra penalty accessed for this bad round being left in the revolver. This bad round is known to be left in the revolver and has not been left in there inadvertently. There is no additional penalty attached to this round other than the target that it did not hit.


For the 6 target plate rack the shooter has 10 rounds to knockdown all 6 plates and if there any rounds left over there is a dump plate provided.
The shooter manages to hit and knockdown 5 of these targets but leaves one standing. During the course of shooting the knockdowns the shooter has one bad round. He goes around trying to get the round to fire and it does not. The shooter chooses to take the miss for the target remaining standing. He knows there is still a bad round left in his gun but it is not a mistake that has been inadvertently left in the gun but a bad round and everyone is aware of it. The shooter is awarded 1 miss for the target not knocked down and no extra penalty for the bad round.


10. Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification. Page 16 ROI



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Would somebody pass the fork .

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...For the 6 target plate rack the shooter has 10 rounds to knockdown all 6 plates and if there any rounds left over there is a dump plate provided.

The shooter manages to hit and knockdown 5 of these targets but leaves one standing. During the course of shooting the knockdowns the shooter has one bad round. He goes around trying to get the round to fire and it does not. The shooter chooses to take the miss for the target remaining standing. He knows there is still a bad round left in his gun but it is not a mistake that has been inadvertently left in the gun but a bad round and everyone is aware of it. The shooter is awarded 1 miss for the target not knocked down and no extra penalty for the bad round.

 

10. Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification. Page 16 ROI

 

 

It seems to me the basis for this argument is awareness of the round being left in the gun. OK, but page 23 ROI states "Any round left..." gets a five second penalty. Your previous example doesn't address the mandatory five seconds per stage instructions, ie 'Any knockdowns still standing will be scored as misses. So we have to either override page 23 ROI, or the stage instructions for a miss. I don't need examples to justify the fairness of the call, I already agree with you on that. I just want to know what rule to point to when I ignore either stage definitions for a miss, or page 23. I can't find that.

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It seems to me the basis for this argument is awareness of the round being left in the gun. OK, but page 23 ROI states "Any round left..." gets a five second penalty. Your previous example doesn't address the mandatory five seconds per stage instructions, ie 'Any knockdowns still standing will be scored as misses. So we have to either override page 23 ROI, or the stage instructions for a miss. I just want to know what rule to point to when I do that.

BINGO....we have two sets of instructions here... 1) the rules and conventions as well as 2) the stage instructions....(knockdowns left standing.)

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Captain would you score this the same way if it were not knockdowns and just plates, in otherwords would you have awarded a miss for the target not hit and the unfired round...just wondering...also this has been a great learner thread...

Of course not. I would call one unfired round and that's it. But I would justify it because the shooter never fired at the plate and therefore, under the ROI definition of a miss, could not have 'missed' the plate. Under the OP stage instructions the definition of a miss is different. The plate was standing, shooter gets a miss.

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Keep in mind, if you have an unfired round you will have a miss. The penalty is not doubled.

The 5 second unfired round penalty on page 23 is a miss for the round not fired. Use the miss flow chart.

Take a look at this:

http://www.oowss.com/SASS%20Rules%20Docs/Reload%20choices%20(edit%20Sept12).pdf

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The op is getting scored for a miss and an unfired round caused by one bullet .It does'nt matter if it was a knockdown or not ." A " miss " is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm " . The senerio gave the shooter room for some misses until he was out of ammo and left up some targets or went to the static target . I see that if we follow the rules by the letter it is two penalties for one round . Still have never seen it scored that way . People are saying because its a knockdown and it was left up its both . Again the rules say if its a target and not hit its a miss . So according to the rules it would have been scored the same way if it was all plates .

 

 

 

CB ,wrote this while you posted . The rules say nothing about shooting at target .

 

 

We went over this already . The bold is the quote from RO1 . You DO NOT have to fire at a target to aquire a miss . Thus I think that is why we have the unfired round rule . Yes they need to fix it but where I shoot its always been scored the way Rowdy is saying .

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It makes more sense if you look at it as counting hits rather than counting misses. KD down = HIT. The stage requires six hits. Five were made.

 

In all scenarios the "unfired round" penalty is in lieu of a "miss" penalty. They are both five seconds because they are both the result of not making a hit. Like Rowdy stated the unfired round penalty is never because a round is left in a gun, ejected or dropped. It's because it wasn't used to hit a target. This game is about hits on targets with penalties for failure to do so. Ya just got to look at it from the positive side.

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I agree with Rowdy, I see the Logic and this situation in kind of unique, he only gets one miss because of the unfired round not the target still standing because we assume the last round would have been used to engage the knock down still standing.

 

KK

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FIVE SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm.

...

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round

 

The unfired round penalty is not the same as the missed target penalty. If so, why list them separately?

 

 

 

We went over this already . The bold is the quote from RO1 . You DO NOT have to fire at a target to aquire a miss . Thus I think that is why we have the unfired round rule . Yes they need to fix it but where I shoot its always been scored the way Rowdy is saying .

I agree that you have accurately quoted the ROI definition of a miss, but in this case, stage instructions overrode the standard definition, instead of failure to hit spotters are instructed to count standing knockdowns.

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I agree with Rowdy, I see the Logic and this situation in kind of unique, he only gets one miss because of the unfired round not the target still standing because we assume the last round would have been used to engage the knock down still standing.

 

KK

Exactly how I looked at it

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FIVE SECOND PENALTIES

Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm.

...

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round

 

The unfired round penalty is not the same as the missed target penalty. If so, why list them separately?

 

 

I agree that you have accurately quoted the ROI definition of a miss, but in this case, stage instructions overrode the standard definition, instead of failure to hit spotters are instructed to count standing knockdowns.

I know you have agreed with Rowdy, but it took me a second to get this after Rowdy's post, the one thing that keeps the pard from getting two penaltys is the fact that missing the knock down wasn't counted as a miss, so in fact he actually got the one penalty for the knock down still standing not the unfired round because a miss on the knock downs didn't count.

 

KK

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One MIss, period! The round didn't go off on last target! It's a MISS, period.

 

in the 2 miss thinking, if you shoot SG and only have four rounds and one is a squib and only take 3 down, you're gonna give the shooter 2 misses? Ide argue too if I got that kind of call!

 

 

pbcc

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I'm gravitating towards a single miss...taking the instructions into account.

 

Now I know that a lot of you say...who cares...what I gravitate to...but anyways, here's my reasoning.

 

The unfired round was needed for the KD plate. Since it wasn't fired at the target cuz it was a dud...or somethin...then it's a miss. However, a miss (in this case) on the KD's do not count as a miss. Therefore the "Dud" doesn't count has a miss...again, in this case.

 

So now I look up and I count one KD still up.

 

That's scored as a Miss.

 

That's my reasoning based on the instructions given.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

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Normally stage instructions overide stage conventions. Including scoring. However, in this case they don't accordng to the RO Committee. I'm fine with that. For this very reason I QUIT writing stages with KD's and dump plates about 5 years ago. You will never settle the argument in the field because there are two ways to score them depending on how you interpret the stage instructions. After reading every post on this thread, I have a headache !!! :wacko::blink::blink:

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Shooter TRIED to knock down the last knockdown many times. Witness said he went all the way around twice. Dud round and still standing kd target represent one and the same thing.

 

One miss.

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I hope nobody who has been thinking about trying their hand at stage writing is reading this. It would scare off any rational person.

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It seems to me the basis for this argument is awareness of the round being left in the gun. OK, but page 23 ROI states "Any round left..." gets a five second penalty. Your previous example doesn't address the mandatory five seconds per stage instructions, ie 'Any knockdowns still standing will be scored as misses. So we have to either override page 23 ROI, or the stage instructions for a miss. I don't need examples to justify the fairness of the call, I already agree with you on that. I just want to know what rule to point to when I ignore either stage definitions for a miss, or page 23. I can't find that.

Let’s try it this way: ROI page 23

 

5-SECOND PENALTIES

• Rifle, revolver, and shotgun

targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm. A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate

type firearm. Target placement should always allow a shooter the opportunity for a clean miss to be scored without argument. Overlapping targets of the same type should be avoided if at all possible and should not cause a Procedural “trap” by making it difficult to determine the shooter’s intent when engagingthe targets.

 

• Each missed target.

• Each unfired round.

• Each target hit with an incorrect firearm, either intentionally or by mistake.

• Each target hit with “illegally acquired” ammunition.

 

Let’s say each of these bullets is a stand alone penalty and that you would award a penalty for a miss and then another penalty for an unfired round. If the shooter had pulled the round used from the TOs belt he would get a third penalty for using illegally acquired ammunition.

 

With this concept in mind if the shooter were to miss the pistol target and hit a rifle target he would not only get a penalty for the miss but also a penalty for hitting a target with an incorrect firearm. He would get 5 seconds for the miss, 5 seconds for hitting a target with an incorrect firearm and another 5 seconds for the ammo. Not just the 5 seconds that the miss should be.

 

These bullets are not stand alone but any one of them will get a penalty…they don’t accumulate upon the shooting of one round.

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Law of averages.... shooter missed 5 with 9....he'd need at least 2 to get 1. :lol::lol::D

 

If it's OK with Phantom then BY GAWWWWWDD.... who could disagree?

 

I KNOW, I KNOW! .... but it doesn't really matter. You get to argue both the rules AND the stage instructions on this one so the shooter gets the call no matter what.

 

I agree with Happy Jack.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

If the 10th round was a dud and the target didn't fall, assessing 2 misses for the one round is not too cool. Benefit of doubt goes to shooter... 1 miss only.

 

Elmer Keith said " Hell I was there"... :)

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A shooter finishes a stage and is called to have missed 2 targets. At the unloading table it is discovered that he has a live round in a revolver. Therefore it is apparent he did not fire all 5 rounds and he is given a miss for the round inadvertently left in the revolver. He is awarded a total of three misses because he did not hit 3 targets. 2 targets missed plus one not shot at—hence the live round inadvertently left in the revolver. It is found that he did not shoot at one target because he still has a live round inadvertently left in his revolver not an extra penalty but a penalty for the target he did not shoot at.

 

A shooter finishes a stage and has missed 2 targets plus he had a bad round. He went around 2 times trying to get the round to discharge

but it did not and he chooses to take the miss. He will get 3 misses—2 misses for the targets missed and 1 miss for the bad round. There is no extra penalty accessed for this bad round being left in the revolver. This bad round is known to be left in the revolver and has not been left in there inadvertently. There is no additional penalty attached to this round other than the target that it did not hit.

 

For the 6 target plate rack the shooter has 10 rounds to knockdown all 6 plates and if there any rounds left over there is a dump plate provided.

The shooter manages to hit and knockdown 5 of these targets but leaves one standing. During the course of shooting the knockdowns the shooter has one bad round. He goes around trying to get the round to fire and it does not. The shooter chooses to take the miss for the target remaining standing. He knows there is still a bad round left in his gun but it is not a mistake that has been inadvertently left in the gun but a bad round and everyone is aware of it. The shooter is awarded 1 miss for the target not knocked down and no extra penalty for the bad round.

 

10. Inadvertently leaving unfired rounds in a revolver is a miss unless the round is under the hammer, then it is a Stage Disqualification. Page 16 ROI

 

 

 

So using your reasoning on this I could shoot the six knockdowns and knock them down(no misses there) then declare a malfunction for my last 4 rounds and not have any misses because II knew the unfired rounds were there and didn't "inadvertently" leave them

 

Never mind. I guess I'm just to stupid to get it.

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Law of averages.... shooter missed 5 with 9....he'd need at least 2 to get 1. :lol::lol::D

 

If it's OK with Phantom then BY GAWWWWWDD.... who could disagree?

 

I KNOW, I KNOW! .... but it doesn't really matter. You get to argue both the rules AND the stage instructions on this one so the shooter gets the call no matter what.

 

I agree with Happy Jack.

You got that right! I can see myself arguing this theoretically on the wire, or maybe talking over the rules with some pards, but making the double penalty call during a match, not me. I figure I call a miss, nobody can appeal but the shooter, who if he's smart won't, and it's a done deal. Having said that I'm willing to make the tough calls, but not ones where I'm conflicted and unsure.

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So using your reasoning on this I could shoot the six knockdowns and knock them down(no misses there) then declare a malfunction for my last 4 rounds and not have any misses because II knew the unfired rounds were there and didn't "inadvertently" leave them

That's not quite in following the spirit of the game, now is it? We can deal with that too.

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Yup, we have never fully recovered for the mistake we made in the rules in 2002 - when we mixed the idea of misses and procedures. We have added the flow chart, and extra pages - only to achieve continued confusion.

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That's not quite in following the spirit of the game, now is it? We can deal with that too.

How would you know/prove that I didn't have a malfunction? BOD to the shooter.

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