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Grouchy Spike

What's the Call?

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without reading every bit of this, perhaps I can bring clarity to the discussion.

the issue many of you apparently struggle with is this;

the penalty for an unfired round is NOT a MISS, it is FIVE SECONDS.

you're arguing how many misses the shooter had when its not the issue.

the call is one miss AND one unfired round. total penalty =10 secs.

I hope that helps, i'm not going to follow this any further.

cc

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He has one round to account for . It may be a hit , it may be a miss and it may be unfired . Pick any one . Yes if you go by the letter of the rules you can say you have one unfired round and one miss . That is why this has gone on for 5 pages . But that was not the intent of the rule . It was about round count to complete the stage . We have always known that because if it was 10 static targets and 9 in a row get hit and the last round does not go off we would score one miss and not one miss and one unfired round . Something about knockdowns and / or free misses has some confused .

ROI Page 6 - "Enforce the rules as written, not what you think they mean." That is the only way to be consistent.

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Okay...so it's one miss, and one unfired round that could have been used to eliminate the miss that occurred on shot no. 6 in my example.

 

10 seconds total penalty.

 

That's the way it is...and makes sense to me, your unknowledgeable cowboy action shooter person.

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I believe Rowdy Yates, speaking for the RO Committee, said it was one miss.

 

Perhaps a simple "double jeopardy " statement on unfired round(s) and knockdown target(s) left standing would solve the dilemma.

 

Now that Palewolf is home and able to Post. Perhaps he will clarify - make a ruling. Then, we can all enforce the ruling consistently.

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The difference here is that the stage instructions stated that any KDs left standing were to be counted as misses. In your experience, have you ever seen a static target stage instruction state that any un - hit targets will be counted as misses? Generally a miss can not occur without firing a round at a target but this stage was different, everybody started with 6 misses and had 10 chances to eliminate them.

Every match I've been to scored unhit targets as 5 second penalties. Usually called "misses" sometimes "unfired rounds". Never has ONE unhit target counted for both.

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my eyes are starting to bleed!

 

first I thought 1 miss, 1 unfired round = 10 seconds

 

then I was on the one miss = 5 seconds

 

now i haven't a clue!

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I can't believe this is STILL going......we don't need PW to end this it's been covered before. If you had 10 shots to clear a Star with the rifle and you throw out FIVE rounds and still clear all five plates...........you STILL get five misses. Or you MUST re-load and fire 5 rounds. That's just the way it is unless it's written differently in the stage description. This is no different just with the pistol.

 

He left a plate UP (1 miss) and didn't fire all the required rounds (1 in the gun)..........if this goes on for 6 more pages it's STILL two misses.

 

 

PS I think the confusion is coming from a KD that has to fall using excessive ammo vs a static target in a normal sweep......not the same thing.

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I still don't see the 2 miss aspect. You are giving two penalties for one shot.

 

Lets look at it a different way.

 

If you have a 10-plate rack and the shooters rifle jams after 2 rounds leaving 8 in the rifle and 8 plates standing - Do they get 16 misses? One miss for each unfired round and one for each plate standing? This is just what you are saying about one malfunction round in the pistol that didn't fire and one plate left standing for 2 misses.

 

It's just ONE miss for the OP.

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I can't believe this is STILL going......we don't need PW to end this it's been covered before. If you had 10 shots to clear a Star with the rifle and you throw out FIVE rounds and still clear all five plates...........you STILL get five misses. Or you MUST re-load and fire 5 rounds. That's just the way it is unless it's written differently in the stage description. This is no different just with the pistol.

 

He left a plate UP (1 miss) and didn't fire all the required rounds (1 in the gun)..........if this goes on for 6 more pages it's STILL two misses.

 

 

PS I think the confusion is coming from a KD that has to fall using excessive ammo vs a static target in a normal sweep......not the same thing.

If you have 10 rounds to clear a 5 target star and you cleared it why would you reload and if you did what are you going to shoot at . I shot on your posse in SC and I jacked a round on a rifle run ( not uncommon for me ) and I was given one miss . I was not also hit with one unfired round for 5 sec . The rules state the a standing knockdown is a miss only because you can hit one and it may not go down .

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The difference here is that the stage instructions stated that any KDs left standing were to be counted as misses. In your experience, have you ever seen a static target stage instruction state that any un - hit targets will be counted as misses? Generally a miss can not occur without firing a round at a target but this stage was different, everybody started with 6 misses and had 10 chances to eliminate them.

The rules say any unhit target is a miss . That is all the rule says . The rules say nothing about firing a round for it to be a miss .

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Phantom.....to quote you......"Oy"

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I still don't see the 2 miss aspect. You are giving two penalties for one shot.

 

Lets look at it a different way.

 

If you have a 10-plate rack and the shooters rifle jams after 2 rounds leaving 8 in the rifle and 8 plates standing - Do they get 16 misses? One miss for each unfired round and one for each plate standing? This is just what you are saying about one malfunction round in the pistol that didn't fire and one plate left standing for 2 misses.

 

It's just ONE miss for the OP.

Again, totally different situation. Your example is a 10 on 10. That's the difference...primarily.

 

Here we have a 10 for 6 situation. The question is how do we define the extra 4 rounds? I'm saying that they are rounds to clean up any MISSES on the first 6 shots.

 

In the case where one has KD still standing after 6 shots, there was an obvious miss. NOW you have 4 rounds to clean up that miss...but your MUST fire those 4 rounds. So at this point, before you fire ANY of those 4 rounds you've got 1 miss and 4 unfired rounds in your revolver. If you stop right there, you've got 5 misses.

 

We have to see this differently then if it was a 5 on 5...or a 10 on 10 because in those cases, each round has a target.

 

2 misses.

 

Phantom

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ROI Page 6 - "Enforce the rules as written, not what you think they mean." That is the only way to be consistent.

So if you have ten static targets and ten bad primers you are going to hit shooter with 50 sec for missed targets and 50 sec for unfired rounds . You are an RO instructor ? Have you read ALL of this thread . It has been noted by the RO committee that the verbage of the rule could be a little confusing . By the way if you DID go by the letter of the law you would have to award 100 sec for my example . There should have been an ethier/or in the rules . It is to account for rounds needed to complete a stage .

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Again, totally different situation. Your example is a 10 on 10. That's the difference...primarily.

 

Here we have a 10 for 6 situation. The question is how do we define the extra 4 rounds? I'm saying that they are rounds to clean up any MISSES on the first 6 shots.

 

In the case where one has KD still standing after 6 shots, there was an obvious miss. NOW you have 4 rounds to clean up that miss...but your MUST fire those 4 rounds. So at this point, before you fire ANY of those 4 rounds you've got 1 miss and 4 unfired rounds in your revolver. If you stop right there, you've got 5 misses.

 

We have to see this differently then if it was a 5 on 5...or a 10 on 10 because in those cases, each round has a target.

 

2 misses.

 

Phantom

You dont . For this stage they are irrelevant until all knockdowns are down .

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Yikes!

 

One thing is crystal clear about this conversation, we need something in the rules to support the call of one miss when PWB says it's one miss and folks (including RO Instructors) are still debating that it is two misses. :unsure::ph34r:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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You dont . For this stage they are irrelevant .

Really???

 

Wow...so why even send them down range? How many misses does the shooter have if they have one KD standing and 4 unfired rounds?

 

Come on now, let's not just blow 'em off as though those last rounds are meaningless.

 

Phantom

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Phantom I had a late edit .

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Yikes!

 

One thing is crystal clear about this conversation, we need something in the rules to support the call of one miss when PWB says it's one miss and folks (including RO Instructors) are still debating that it is two misses. :unsure::ph34r:

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Too many people are skimming over this thread . If they read it they may get it .

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I figured out my stage instructions for next month if we use the plate rack. "Shooter may load up to 10 rounds in the rifle. Misses will be assessed for plates left standing. One second bonus for each shot put on the bonus target (16" dump plate).

With these instructions could anyone find any way to award 10 seconds of penalties if a situation arose like the original post? BTW plate rack will have 5-6 plates

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Too many people are skimming over this thread . If they read it they may get it .

Hi Most Wanted,

 

The problem, as I stated earlier is that most people do not read the Wire. When people debate what they think is in the rule booklets and it is contrary to a ROC ruling, the booklets need clarification or we will not get consistent calls.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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Phantom I had a late edit .

I'm still in disagreement.

 

What would be the call if after 6 shots the shooter's gun stops functioning and he/she has 1 kd still standing?

 

Phantom

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Too many people are skimming over this thread . If they read it they may get it .

Nope. We just disagree.

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Even if we can't reach agreement about what the call should be I think it would be a step forward if advocates of both sides could at least acknowledge that the issue isn't clear cut and that both sides have support (hence the confusion).

 

It isn't particularly helpful to take the stand that the answer is obvious and disagreement is due to ignorance. I'm not saying that position has been articulated, but it's certainly implied in some responses.

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Even if we can't reach agreement about what the call should be I think it would be a step forward if advocates of both sides could at least acknowledge that the issue isn't clear cut and that both sides have support (hence the confusion).

 

It isn't particularly helpful to take the stand that the answer is obvious and disagreement is due to ignorance. I'm not saying that position has been articulated, but it's certainly implied in some responses.

The salient point in the OP is that the round was used to engage a target, and being that it was defective, you can count the miss the defective round caused, but you don't then count it as "unfired"... for the attempt to fire it was made.

 

And, for matters of extrapolation, it matters not, how many OTHER misses there were, nor at what type of target they were... well, pointed towards... kinda... sorta... just not very accurately.

 

And Buck, to answer your question, yes, every call matters, for some folks are shootin' for category placement... or beatin' their best bud, or the one guy that beats them by one overall placement every month...

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We have the answer via Rowdy from Palewolf. One miss only.

 

Now, how to make the written rules clarify that since it is obviously a point of confusion.

 

I would like to see the miss/procedure flow chart modified to cover this and do away with the separate statement about unfired rounds.

 

For example the first question on the flow chart could be:

"Were all required number of rounds fired per the stage instructions? If yes, continue. If No, assess misses for unfired rounds."

 

Then:

"Except for unfired rounds, did the shooter hit all the correct type of targets with legally acquired ammo?

If yes - assess no additional misses. If no, assess misses."

 

Would that make it clear???

 

It would greatly help if there was one place to look rather than the precondition Plus the flow chart.

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Was there a time when the rules didn't differentiate between miss and unfired round? They create the same outcome (an unhit target).

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I'm still in disagreement.

 

What would be the call if after 6 shots the shooter's gun stops functioning and he/she has 1 kd still standing?

 

Phantom

I see what you are saying. Should unengaged rounds count differently than rounds that were engaged but failed to fire.

 

The answer is no. They are the same. The unfired rounds are all counted as 5 secod penalties whether for FTF or ejected at any time during the string. The required number of rounds must go down range. Any less than that gets you 5 seconds for each unfired round no matter what. But there is no double penalty for a knockdown left up. If the number of knockdowns up is greater than the number of unfired rounds, go with the higher number n

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Even if we can't reach agreement about what the call should be I think it would be a step forward if advocates of both sides could at least acknowledge that the issue isn't clear cut and that both sides have support (hence the confusion).

 

It isn't particularly helpful to take the stand that the answer is obvious and disagreement is due to ignorance. I'm not saying that position has been articulated, but it's certainly implied in some responses.

Exactly! Obviously there are diffrences of opinion on this as well as many other "what's the call" type posts. Doesn't mean a poster is ignmorant or stupid. Might mean they are uneducated. These threads should be educational, not confrontational.

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Exactly! Obviously there are diffrences of opinion on this as well as many other "what's the call" type posts. Doesn't mean a poster is ignorant or stupid. Might mean they are uneducated. These threads should be educational, not confrontational.

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CBB . I have said on alot of my post that the rules as they are need some editing . Hope that you did'nt take offense to any of my post .

 

Dave , I meant that as a reference to the fact that the RO committee ruled on this many pages ago .

 

Phantom , 1 miss . The stage allowed for 4 free rounds untill all knockdowns were down . If he shot and hit six down for seven then 3 bad rounds he would have three misses as they were to go on the static target .

 

Branch Water Jack , The rules do not say anything about engagement for a miss to occur . If you have ten plates and pull pistol one and hit five then then forget to pull pistol two thats five misses . A live round left in a pistol that is not under the hammer is no additional penalty other than the miss . This has been stated in this thread by the RO committee .

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There is no penalty for a bad round even if it is left in a revolver as long as it isn't under the hammer.
The only penalty is for the target it doesn't hit.
A miss is only a miss whether it is on a standing plate or a knockdown.
The only difference is that if a knockdown doesn't fall it can be a miss even if hit.
I think half my total post were on this thread . Some just hit a sore spot . I'm gonna bail out and hope you gentlemen and ladies come to some sort of agreement . Thanks for keeping it civil . Feel free to pm me if you have any final words you would like me to hear . I'm ok with agree to disagree .

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I believe Rowdy Yates, speaking for the RO Committee, said it was one miss.

 

Perhaps a simple "double jeopardy " statement on unfired round(s) and knockdown target(s) left standing would solve the dilemma.

 

Now that Palewolf is home and able to Post. Perhaps he will clarify - make a ruling. Then, we can all enforce the ruling consistently.

The ROC, of which PaleWolf is a member has made a ruling.

1 - 5 second penalty.

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Branch Water Jack , The rules do not say anything about engagement for a miss to occur . If you have ten plates and pull pistol one and hit five then then forget to pull pistol two thats five misses . A live round left in a pistol that is not under the hammer is no additional penalty other than the miss . This has been stated in this thread by the RO committee .

Exactly. I agree. A miss is defined as an unfired round. So, in the instance where he does not pull pistol 2, he is awarded 5 misses.

 

The same logic of the first point would have to apply if the shooter engaged the last knock down with the 1st shot in the second gun. Say it squibs or the gun breaks. Shooter at that point has the option of reloading 4 rounds in the first gun and have a go at it or take 4 misses for the unfired rounds that he did not attempt to engage, or by rule 5-second penalty for "Each unfired round. " You do not give an additional penalty for the one target left as 1 is less than 4.

 

If, however the number of targets remaining is greater than the number of rounds left in the gun when a malfuction is called, you call the number of targets remaining as that is the greater number. (for instance, misses on all the 5 first pistol shots, squib on pistol round 6 - award 6 misses).

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Let me start by stating: I was in the 1 miss camp on this call. But...

 

I have contemplated this call and studied the replies in this thread given by some pretty impressive thinkers. I can honestly say that I can't come to a definitive conclusion either way. So as an RO (and most likely not having PWB in the gallery) I would have to resort to rules that I can feel comfortable making an on the spot decision based on.

 

1. Is there a safety problem?

 

2. Are we having fun?

 

3. Poll my spotters, review my cheatsheats (pocket card and flowchart), and were the rules (as far as I can tell) followed.

 

4. Am I at risk of breaking the ROI page #6 (second) #4 rule?

 

Insert your own conclusion here_________

 

Thankfully, as an RO, my decisions are not chiseled in stone and are review-able by a higher authority.

 

 

I'd have to say, if I run into a stage like this at a match, I would want to have a detailed discussion, prior to commencing the match, with the powers that be, on what could happen if this comes up.

 

 

Silver "Trying to ensure rules #1 and #2 are fairly applied to everyone from my own imperfect perspective" Shadow

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Every round has value, in most cases where there is one target for each round, the value is clear, a hit or a miss.

 

In this case, with 'free misses' on the plate rack and one plate standing and one dud round still in a revolver the shooter may reload one round to replace the dud round, and in my mind idealy this should be done.

 

But for the sake of discussion, lets say there is one good round left, one plate standing, the shooter could

 

use that round to shoot at the plate and either hit (clean) or miss (1 miss) it.

 

The shooter could also have a brain fart at shoot at the dump plate either hitting (miss for the plate and a P) or missing (miss for the plate AND a miss on the dump if it was very obvious he was shooting at it, and a P to boot as the dump was for after all the plates were down.) it.

 

Or the shooter could have a brain fart and holster the pistol before bringing that last round under hammer. ( a miss for the plate and a miss for the unfired round)

 

Every round has value, a round not fired can not realize any value other than a miss.

EDIT - for those who might argue that misses didn't count on the plate rack, I would suggest that if a miss was the worst possible outcome, I might agree with you, but given that a P could also have been earned, I don't and the 5 seconds for the unfired round needs to be applied as well.

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