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Grouchy Spike

What's the Call?

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Not according to flow chart . This is what I'm getting at . The rules as written seem to have two penalties for one round and I have never seen it scored that way .

Your right it is not scored that way.

 

KK

 

 

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Your right it is not scored that way.

 

KK

KK , I'm missing your point . Maybe I'm trying your patience but I do want to under stand this call . Ten targets , ten rounds and three don't go off . 15 sec for missed targets (flow chart and second sentence in five second penalties) and 15 sec for unfired rounds . I have never seen it scored that way . I feel I am talking in complete thoughts and would appreciate the same . Thanks

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LOL you're too kind Most Wanted! ;)

 

That's waaayyyy above my pay grade. I'm happy when I can figure out what the rules are. Dealing with rule making politics and 'holes' in the rules is beyond me. Perhaps the ROC will have something to say about this that will officially clarify it. That's one reason I like these threads. Sometimes I even print them out and staple them to one of my copies of the rule books.

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C B ,I have talked with you before and I will say hands down you know the rules better than me . I agree these threads should help weed some problems out and I too have been keeping notes . Take care

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KK , I'm missing your point . Maybe I'm trying your patience but I do want to under stand this call . Ten targets , ten rounds and three don't go off . 15 sec for missed targets (flow chart and second sentence in five second penalties) and 15 sec for unfired rounds . I have never seen it scored that way . I feel I am talking in complete thoughts and would appreciate the same . Thanks

Not trying my patients at all, the flow chart only deals with misses and target sequence, in your senerio you have ten shots you shot seven at the correct targets and the last three are jacked out lets say because a broken firing pin, so you have three targets that you have not engaged because of the three rounds jacked out, the penality you would be accessed with would be 5 seconds each for the unfired rounds, not three misses also, can't miss what you don't shoot at. make better sense?

 

KK

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Not really . Same arguement can be made for op . Five second penalties says nothing about shooting at target only that unhit targets is a miss . Where ever I've shot its been scored ether or but not both .

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Looked at another way: the shooter actually missed 5 times (9 shots with 4/5 plates up) he only hit 4 out of 9. But was scored 2 misses... one for the plate and one for the FTF round.

 

Seems generous to anyone but a cowboy shooter.....And ONE FTF round did not cause 2 misses. He missed 5 times and FTF once. If these weren't KD targets he'd have 6 misses.

 

1 Miss... 1 FTF

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Not really . Same arguement can be made for op . Five second penalties says nothing about shooting at target only that unhit targets is a miss . Where ever I've shot its been scored ether or but not both .

and they are scoring it correct, you should not be double penalized for the same infraction, either you missed it by shooting at the target or missed it by jacking a round out, the end result is the same 5 seconds for each miss OR 5 seconds each for each unfired round not both and I looked at the flow chart and I not sure what you seeing.

 

KK

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I believe the core difference here is that you can get a miss with a knockdown even though you never fired at it, whereas with standard plates you must have actually fired a round to get a miss. Therefore in the second scenario you can't get a miss without shooting and therefore can't get a 5 second unfired round penalty at the same time as a miss.

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The op is getting scored for a miss and an unfired round caused by one bullet .It does'nt matter if it was a knockdown or not ." A " miss " is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm " . The senerio gave the shooter room for some misses until he was out of ammo and left up some targets or went to the static target . I see that if we follow the rules by the letter it is two penalties for one round . Still have never seen it scored that way . People are saying because its a knockdown and it was left up its both . Again the rules say if its a target and not hit its a miss . So according to the rules it would have been scored the same way if it was all plates .

 

 

 

CB ,wrote this while you posted . The rules say nothing about shooting at target .

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There is no penalty for a bad round even if it is left in a revolver as long as it isn't under the hammer.

The only penalty is for the target it doesn't hit.

A miss is only a miss whether it is on a standing plate or a knockdown.

The only difference is that if a knockdown doesn't fall it can be a miss even if hit.

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GJ,

Aren't you reading more into the situation than the OP describes? He makes no mention of any rounds fired at the dump plate. So no potential for your "P" scenario.

 

I hear the argument for a miss (target left up) and a 5 sec for unfired round. But what if there were 10 KD targets and you put down nine with nine shots and had a misfire on the last one. Is that scenario stil a miss and a 5 sec for unfired round? Or taken to a simpler extreme, stage has 10 plates and instructions say to one shot on each. You hit the first nine but your last shot is a misfire. In that scenario is the shooter assessed a miss AND a penalty for unfired round?

And someone please respond to sentence I have in bold . This was post #4 and seems to be what I'm trying to get at .

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The op is getting scored for a miss and an unfired round caused by one bullet .It does'nt matter if it was a knockdown or not ." A " miss " is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm " . The senerio gave the shooter room for some misses until he was out of ammo and left up some targets or went to the static target . I see that if we follow the rules by the letter it is two penalties for one round . Still have never seen it scored that way . People are saying because its a knockdown and it was left up its both . Again the rules say if its a target and not hit its a miss . So according to the rules it would have been scored the same way if it was all plates .

 

 

 

CB ,wrote this while you posted . The rules say nothing about shooting at target .

I think you've put your finger on the crux of this Most Wanted. The rule books score misses exactly as you stated. Under that definition a double penalty (miss and unfired round) isn't possible. In the OP scenario the definition of a miss is differnent (any standing knockdowns). That is what leads to the confusion. I do stand by my interpretation of the rules as they are currently written.

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There is no penalty for a bad round even if it is left in a revolver as long as it isn't under the hammer.
The only penalty is for the target it doesn't hit.
A miss is only a miss whether it is on a standing plate or a knockdown.
The only difference is that if a knockdown doesn't fall it can be a miss even if hit.

I think we have a winner . And by that I mean the shooter .

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In this case I tend to think the knockdown left standing and the unfired round are one in the same, 1 miss. With 10 rounds you should only have the potential for 10 misses, I think :wacko: . Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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There is no penalty for a bad round even if it is left in a revolver as long as it isn't under the hammer.
The only penalty is for the target it doesn't hit.
A miss is only a miss whether it is on a standing plate or a knockdown.
The only difference is that if a knockdown doesn't fall it can be a miss even if hit.

Would you mind applying that statement to this situation? Which penalty doesn't apply, the knockdown left standing, or the round in the revolver? I don't mean the question to be confrontational, I would like to hear the opinion of a member of the RO committee to help me better understand the logic of the rule(s).

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1 miss for plate left standing and 5 second penalty for the unfired round.

yup

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I understand the confusion if you separate the bad round from the miss.


First look at my first post. If we are not talking about knockdowns how would you score this. Would you give a miss for the target not hit and the bad round left in the gun that was already responsible for the miss?

that would be #19

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Hmmmm..... No answer to the question I posed in post #4?

 

 

I understand the confusion if you separate the bad round from the miss.

 

First look at my first post. If we are not talking about knockdowns how would you score this. Would you give a miss for the target not hit and the bad round left in the gun that was already responsible for the miss?

 

 

 

 

I smell what you're cooking. My only question is...in the OP...what would the call be if all 10 rounds in the firearm failed to fire? 6 misses?

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I smell what you're cooking. My only question is...in the OP...what would the call be if all 10 rounds in the firearm failed to fire? 6 misses?

Yes...6 misses and the admonition to change your ammo or fix your firearms.

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The op gave room for free misses until all the knockdowns fell . Can't see how it could be scored more than 6 .

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The difference is having 10 rounds to hit 6 targets, or 10 rounds to hit 10 targets.

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For the 10 second crowd.. Stage is 10 KD to be shot with rifle loaded with 10 rnds. Shooter drops nine with first nine shots and jacks the last round and chooses to not reload. Still 10 seconds of penalties?

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How can you keep saying that 1 miss caused the penalty when the shooter missed 6x's but was only charged 1 miss for a plate left standing and 1 miss for a FTF?

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For the 10 second crowd.. Stage is 10 KD to be shot with rifle loaded with 10 rnds. Shooter drops nine with first nine shots and jacks the last round and chooses to not reload. Still 10 seconds of penalties?

Don't confuse the situation. If the shooter shot 9x's at 10 KD's and left 6 standing, whether he reloaded or not he had 6 misses.

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BK , see post # 46

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Don't confuse the situation. If the shooter shot 9x's at 10 KD's and left 6 standing, whether he reloaded or not he had 6 misses.

 

Actually they would have 5 true misses and one 5 second penalty for a round not fired, which is commonly scored as a miss. So yes, 6 scored misses.

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I spoke with PaleWolf right after my first response and his answer:

 

That one took some teeth-pulling to get the scenario straightened out due to lack of detail in the OP.

Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.
One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty.



PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS Life #2495
************************************

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Yeah, so? I see #46 and Rowdy is explaining how it's not a penalty.... it's scored as an UNFIRED ROUND. Penalties carry forward on reshoots, etc.

 

Shooter missed 5 times on 5 targets.

 

1) miss for plate left standing.

 

1) 5 sec for unfired round

 

Shooter CHOSE not to reload and shoot at the plate left standing which they were free to do just like any other string.

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I spoke with PaleWolf right after my first response and his answer:

 

That one took some teeth-pulling to get the scenario straightened out due to lack of detail in the OP.

 

Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.

One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty.

 

 

 

 

PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS Life #2495

************************************

That's why they invented the $50 challenge.... it usually goes to the shooter anyway.

 

In this scenario had the shooter shot all 5 and had 1 to dump on the plate. It would have been 1 miss.

 

But, arguing FOR a penalty when the challenge has been overturned is in horrible bad form.

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I spoke with PaleWolf right after my first response and his answer:

 

That one took some teeth-pulling to get the scenario straightened out due to lack of detail in the OP.

 

Good example given by ref'ing a 10-target KD rack...''Shooter's Choice'' article covers that.

One target left standing...one unfired round (bad primer/ejected) = assign ONE 5-second penalty.

 

 

 

 

PaleWolf Brunelle, SASS Life #2495

************************************

I think this is the common sense answer. Unfortunately common sense can sometimes be in short supply. From my perspective the rules as currently written do not lead to that conclusion. Perhaps a catchall phrase (like a miss can't cause a P) would solve this. Perhaps an unfired round left in a gun (not under the hammer) can only result in a single penalty. That eliminates the conflict between the stage instructions for knockdowns and the rule for unfired rounds.

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There is no penalty for a bad round even if it is left in a revolver as long as it isn't under the hammer.
BK , which side of the fence are you on .

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