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Rank Scoring


charlietwogunz

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I would like an explanation concerning Rank Scoring i.e. how is it possible for someone to shoot slower (in some cases hundreds of seconds slower due to penalties) than another shooter and the much slower shooter finish higher than the faster shooter(s).

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OH NO!! NOT AGAIN!! :lol::lol::lol:

 

Welcome to the fire! This is what is called a "Dead Horse" issue. It has been discussed and argued about since............ for ever!

 

Look at how rank points are calculated and compiled and you'll see how it works. This scoring system is hated by most, ignored by many, and preferred by some. A never ending debate, discussion, argument always ensues!! <_<:ph34r::o:lol:

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Rank point scoring works by figuring out the placement for a shooter on each stage, adding them up for the total.

 

For example, you shoot a six stage match:

Stage 1 you finish (by total time) in 34th
Stage 2 you finish in 112th (everyone has a bad run periodically)
Stage 3 you finish in 33rd

Stage 4 you had a great run and finish 15th
Stage 5 you finish 35th
Stage 6 you finish 32nd.

 

Your Rank Point score for the match is: 261. How you place in the match is determined by the number of rank points that everyone else in the match scored. It's possible you'd finish 41st (or thereabouts).

 

Yes, it is possible, and even likely, that you still beat someone on total time that finished ahead of you on rank points. And it's likely that someone else beat you on total time but you beat them on rank points.

 

I'm not going to argue the merits of this scoring system. I just hope I gave you enough of an explanation on how it works.

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I would like an explanation concerning Rank Scoring i.e. how is it possible for someone to shoot slower (in some cases hundreds of seconds slower due to penalties) than another shooter and the much slower shooter finish higher than the faster shooter(s).

It is what it is, RANK!!! Unfortunately, all the major matches use it. It is like politicans, smelly, but here to stay.

Al

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Get a rope.

 

Just kidding, welcome to the fire.

 

There are a number of reoccurring topics that keep popping up and Rank vs TT is just one of them. Stock guns vs. slicked up guns, big and close targets vs small and far targets, light loads vs. heavy loads, are a couple of favorites. You might want to consider using the "search" function to save yourself a wheelbarrow load of abuse.

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I love rank scoring. It should be instituted everywhere along with on the clock non shooting procedures (i.e.,, shoot first pistol then run across way, remove noose from Dastardly Don, run back and shoot second pistol......).

I also like a lot of reactive targets on stages with no chance to make up with other gun.

Seriously, I like all of this. Anything that puts the "action" into "Cowboy Action" and turns a speed race into more of a marathon.

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Thanks for replies, Guys, but I still don't understand Rand Scoring....only been shooting 3 years. I thought the adage/scripture "Honor to Whom Honor Due" would apply to a shooting match. i.e. whoever finishes the day with the fastest time gets the higher placing. Evidently I was mistaken. Sorry to open (re-open) old wounds.

Great Shooting !!

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Under Rank Points, each shooter's time is ranked from fastest to slowest by their final time, including penalties. That position is then assigned a rank point, 1 for 1st, 2 for 2nd and so on. Each shooters rank points for all stages are then added up for a total, and then ranked from lowest to highest, with the winner being that shooter with the fewest rank points. The concept being that each stage counts to the total equally to all other stages.

 

As with most concepts, it doesn't always meet its goals. As said above, it has its adherents and detractors.

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Rank - position of finish. First place on a stage is rank point = 1. Last place on a stage that 100 folks shot is rank point 100. Ties on total time mean each of the shooters are given the same rank points, the low number of the grouping. Say, three shooters all with 33.34, and rank 20 had been given to a shooter with 33.33 seconds. All three of those with 33.34 get 21 rank points for that stage,

 

Then for total match rank, add all of a shooter's rank points for each stage.

 

Rank point winners, especially in some of the slower shooter categories like Classic Cowboy and B Western, the BP categories and many ladies categories all can be quite a bit different than if the match were scored with total time only.

 

If that does not tell you how it works, then you need a ton more explanation than can be given here. See your local club match scorekeeper, but be willing to buy them a few drinks to "learn" you about Rank Scoring.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I love rank scoring. It should be instituted everywhere along with on the clock non shooting procedures (i.e.,, shoot first pistol then run across way, remove noose from Dastardly Don, run back and shoot second pistol......).

I also like a lot of reactive targets on stages with no chance to make up with other gun.

Seriously, I like all of this. Anything that puts the "action" into "Cowboy Action" and turns a speed race into more of a marathon.

I'll bite. Do you think that would greatly affect the outcome of the matches as opposed to the same old guys finishing I where they usually do?

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Stage One. Miss the holster with empty left pistol and it plops in the dirt. SDQ. The pressure is off and I blaze away on the next 5 stages throwing caution to the wind.

 

Now with TT I would have been doomed to last place. Thanks to RP I came in 2nd overall. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth by 3rd on down. Been a big fan of RP since. TT is boring. RP injects mystery and excitement into an increasingly dull ole game.

 

I am with Dirty Dan on all his suggestions. CAS has become monotonous. We need to go back to the olden ways of our shootin' matches. This is why I have become such a big fan and advocate of WBAS. It is mucho exciting compared to the same ole same ole of CAS.

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Stage One. Miss the holster with empty left pistol and it plops in the dirt. SDQ. The pressure is off and I blaze away on the next 5 stages throwing caution to the wind.

Now with TT I would have been doomed to last place. Thanks to RP I came in 2nd overall. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth by 3rd on down. Been a big fan of RP since. TT is boring. RP injects mystery and excitement into an increasingly dull ole game.

I am with Dirty Dan on all his suggestions. CAS has become monotonous. We need to go back to the olden ways of our shootin' matches. This is why I have become such a big fan and advocate of WBAS. It is mucho exciting compared to the same ole same ole of CAS.

My brother, I'm dismayed. Shootin' is fun. Doin' some of that stuff on the clock... can be a killer. If your stages are monotomous, then ya need a new stage writer. As you know, simply adding in a little movement can transform a static 10-10-4 into a fun challenge. I must admit, I do miss some of the oddball starting positions, lying down on a bunk, sitting in a chair, etc.; but... those things do tend to stretch out the competition. And by that I mean the time between first and last place. It also makes getting 450 people thru a match problematic with the very real time constraint of available daylight.

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Griffster we have had many stagewriters. The stages have continually degenerated to same ole same ole. They say because that's what folks want and we must go this route to increase attendance. Attendance has steadily declined.

 

At last week's work day the bunk in the fort went in the trash trailer. No more laying down before the beep. So did all the 55 gal nags. The saddles dry rot in the shed. The moving rabbit target is gone. Etc. Etc.

 

I say we go back to the roots of this great game and make Cowboy Action Shooting Cowboy Action Shooting again. I stayed home today for the first time in a long time mainly because of the heat but also because much of the thrill is gone.

 

There is NO good reason we cannot carry an egg on a soup spoon into the saloon and plop it in the beer mug again. Or rope the steer horns for a bonus. Off the clock. Or even on. Feed the chickens chicken feed between positions. We have a good jail cell we never use anymore. Don't even know if we can find the keys...

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Thanks for replies, Guys, but I still don't understand Rand Scoring....only been shooting 3 years. I thought the adage/scripture "Honor to Whom Honor Due" would apply to a shooting match. i.e. whoever finishes the day with the fastest time gets the higher placing. Evidently I was mistaken. Sorry to open (re-open) old wounds.

Great Shooting !!Ra

 

Thanks for replies, Guys, but I still don't understand Rand Scoring....only been shooting 3 years. I thought the adage/scripture "Honor to Whom Honor Due" would apply to a shooting match. i.e. whoever finishes the day with the fastest time gets the higher placing. Evidently I was mistaken. Sorry to open (re-open) old wounds.

Great Shooting !!

Rank scoring is required by the Wild Bunch to remind us that life is not fair and even if you do better than everyone else, you still do not win. It gets worse, There is a new and improved scoring system that allows a shooter that ranks second in his category to be the match overall winner.

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I'll bite. Do you think that would greatly affect the outcome of the matches as opposed to the same old guys finishing I where they usually do?

 

 

I'll bite. Do you think that would greatly affect the outcome of the matches as opposed to the same old guys finishing I where they usually do?

Yes it has changed who wins at major matches. Just one big example of how the Wild Bunch does not care what the majority of it's customers want. Many major matches have stopped using rank scoring because the majority of shooters wanted the change.

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Thanks for replies, Guys, but I still don't understand Rand Scoring....only been shooting 3 years. I thought the adage/scripture "Honor to Whom Honor Due" would apply to a shooting match. i.e. whoever finishes the day with the fastest time gets the higher placing. Evidently I was mistaken. Sorry to open (re-open) old wounds.

Great Shooting !!Ra

 

 

Thanks for replies, Guys, but I still don't understand Rand Scoring....only been shooting 3 years. I thought the adage/scripture "Honor to Whom Honor Due" would apply to a shooting match. i.e. whoever finishes the day with the fastest time gets the higher placing. Evidently I was mistaken. Sorry to open (re-open) old wounds.

Great Shooting !!

Rank scoring is required by the Wild Bunch to remind us that life is not fair and even if you do better than everyone else, you still do not win. It gets worse, There is a new and improved scoring system that allows a shooter that ranks second in his category to be the match overall winner.

Best quote concerning rank scoring I've seen!

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Is this a competition or is it a game. I feel its a competition. Run what ya brung and hope its enough. That being said I never bring enough. I still love to compete and I dont like when rank scoreing puts me ahead of someone whos faster. Its a hollow victory. I know I may be in the minority. I also believe that you can change what we do and how we do it and the same people that are winning now are still going to win. If you feel otherwise you have never won anything of value. People are champions because of work ethic, character, dedication, etc. I dont think an egg in a spoon is going to derail them. But what do I know.

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Just my opinion - again

Total Time Scoring vs. Rank Point Scoring is the result of Game Preference !

Which Game does one prefer to play ? A Match of continuous competition or a Match which is series of discrete competitions? Baseball is continuous competition, runs are accumulated over 9 innings. Tennis is a series of discrete competitions - called Sets. A Player can win the Match, 3 Sets to 2 Sets and have won less games than the competitor who won only 2 Sets.

Each stage is a Total Time Event. The issue seems to be how the scores in each Total Time Stage are accumulated across a series of Stages for a Match Score.


If the individual Stages are NOT considered a discrete unique competition events, but instead continuous competition, then Total Time is a good method to obtain an individual score for each competitor.

But if each Stage is considered a discrete unique event, then some other means than Total Time must be used to obtain an individuals score for a series of such unique discrete events (Stages). Rank Points is one way to make such an addition of unequal unique events.


The Scoring System is the result of which Game is chosen.


If there could be agreement on what the game is today, then maybe agreement could be obtained on the scoring system.

The Wild Bunch evolved the Game as a Series of Discrete Competitions of Unequal Events. And that is the Game that is played at regional and above matches.

I enjoy both Games, but play them slightly differently.


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I'll bite. Do you think that would greatly affect the outcome of the matches as opposed to the same old guys finishing I where they usually do?

No effect on who ends up at the top. Some younger middle of the pack shooters move ahead of older middle of the pack shooters in overall standings. Some older shooters with health issues choose to stop participating. No more Pioneer and Grand Dame categories. Probably some of our younger more 'solid' shooters would drop out as well.

 

I mildly dislike rank scoring though it certainly wouldn't prevent me from attending a match. I prefer to think of our matches as similar to a football or basketball game with distinct 'quarters' the scores of which are subsequently added up to determine a game winner. I think rank scoring is a solution in search of a problem.

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A 10 stage rank point match is like 10 mini matches. Each stage is a mini match unto itself.

Best average in the 10 mini matches wins.

 

I don't care either way you score it.

 

If I want to go to a match. I am going however they score it.

 

If he beat me on average in the rank point system. Then he beat me.

If they get me total time. Then he beat me.

 

Me personally. And I know it is NOT the poplar answer.

I like rank point matches.

 

Like the idea of 10 mini matches and best average takes it.

But I know most don't. And it would never stop me from going to a match.

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I don't like penalties that vary in severity...(sorry about any spelling errors...).

 

Rank penalizes that way...that's a fact.

 

Rank hurts the middle of the bell curve shooters more...that's a fact too.

 

Many times Rank leaves folks very unsatisfied with the Official Outcome of a match...

 

One big reason that some like Rank is because no one knows who won the match until the Awards Ceremony...not a good reason for having such scoring system.

 

And yes, I'll shoot whatever regardless of the type of scoring...so leave the little snide BS comments at home.

 

Cheers!

Phantom

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I agree with Phantom on this. I've been to matches where a 10 second Safety penalty resulted in no change in rank points for a shooter, and another with a P on the same stage lost 5 rank points. How is that right?

 

Just looking at the scores for Stage 1 at the latest EOT and on Stage 1 if 2 different shooters received a 10-second minor safety:

- Badlands Bud would have moved from 1 rank point to about 105.

- Navajo Kid would have moved from 150 rank points to about 345.

 

So one shooter gets 104 rank points and another gets 195 rank points for the same penalty. This strikes me as fundamentally wrong.

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I'll bite. Do you think that would greatly affect the outcome of the matches as opposed to the same old guys finishing I where they usually do?

I don't know Deuce. I never took that into consideration. You as a match director must consider these things. I like rank scoring as an overall measure. Kinda like bowling, scoring is progressive. Good performance compounds your score.

I like these things FOR ME. And I will add probably only Capn Bill Burt and Krazy Kajun recognize my sarcasm. I wouldn't say rank scoring and anything added to stages considered superfluous are good for SASS. The contrary is more true.

A lil personal about me: I'm odd that way I guess about this scoring and running around and carry this, throw that, but I am a task oriented person and measure my business performance from several factors as an overall measure, not just the money. It serves better for future projected performance, growth and earnings. I do some off the wall work for folks others don't. And I like that. Adds a level of uniqueness to what I do and adds some challenges other than "run pipe, pull wire." It makes scratching out a living more agreeable I guess.

It honestly doesn't matter to me how MD's score, but I prefer rank scoring. Largely I like SASS for hanging out with all these clowns I call friends. I have shot twice in the last 12 months and had a ball. All the off the clock stuff, reactive targets, shooting from a rocket, and smaller targets are just novelties.

I always wish to do well, no matter what I am presented with. And lack of participation due to personal matters handicaps my performance significantly. I get that. Regardless, when I do poorly, sure, it pisses me off. More from equipment failure than mental failure. But scoring and stage design, nah, none of this matters. I compete with one or two people but largely with whats between my ears. As of late, I haven't had much to work with or compete against. ;)

 

I think Cockroach said it best.

 

Hey, I'll leave it at this: score how ya like and design how ya like. Please, please, just provide a friendly atmosphere and stages that aren't repetitious. Ya won't hear any complaints out of me. One more thing, you can bet this, I will do my damnedest to have the best zombie costume at Rolans match ( And I for one think this zombie craze is utter nonsense!).

 

See ya Deuce.

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Fairness, like Beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Analytical analysis used to support one's preference, does not make the preference either correct or incorrect - it is still preference as to what is fair.

 

Thus, this debate has no solution.

 

The solution is here in this thread. Many of us will happily shoot any scoring style. Preference for the TT or "add the results of a bunch of contests" is leaning more and more to TT. That things will change is the only constant.

 

CR

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I don't care for the rank scoring but in the end it doesn't matter to me. I am going to shoot the match because of the match and the people that run it not the way they score it!!

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And I will add probably only Capn Bill Burt and Krazy Kajun recognize my sarcasm.

LOL, I try DDD! Sometimes you have me guessing too. But I like a little pot stirring myself, probably too much. Two of my closer pards have told me in the last two weeks that I'm guilty of being obnoxious and overly opinionated on the wire. What the Kajun says about me I'm afraid to even repeat! :o Guess I need to tone it down a bit.

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I'll take the over/under on this one at only 4 pages it being summer and all. :ph34r:

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GCK, you keep referencing how "all these matches" use TT. Where is your data? Of the 50 states, assuming each has a SASS Championship, how many are using TT? You're certainly vwelcome to your opinion, as is evryone else. Just don't use hollow tacticsto try and bolster your opinion.

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