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Rank Scoring


charlietwogunz

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That has always been what I didn't get. If you want to score rank, seems like an OK way to do it to me. But when figuring out category winners, why not score it rank separately for each category? You could also then rank everyone in the same pool for the overall top 10.

 

 

 

 

 

Because if you score shooters "by rank in their category" to find the category winners, then you score shooters "by overall rank" to find the overalls, you will ALWAYS find that there are discrepancies in the way the numbers work out, and you will have Jerry ranked higher overall than John, but John won the category that they both shot in! And you have a BIG fit thrown by one of the two immediately following the awards ceremony.

 

You either have to do scoring with overall ranks, or if you score by category you cannot announce the "top ten" shooters. Both have their problems.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Because if you score shooters "by rank in their category" to find the category winners, then you score shooters "by overall rank" to find the overalls, you will ALWAYS find that there are discrepancies in the way the numbers work out, and you will have Jerry ranked higher overall than John, but John won the category that they both shot in! And you have a BIG fit thrown by one of the two immediately following the awards ceremony.

 

You either have to do scoring with overall ranks, or if you score by category you cannot announce the "top ten" shooters. Both have their problems.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

GJ, Totally agree with you!

 

But no one ever throws a fit when the do not win in a rank vs total time match :P

 

But the rank in category is kind of like the new way they are scoring Wild Bunch matches ;)

 

I've decided to make some stew with this horse. Everyone is welcome to pull out their plate, fill it up, and join me for a good meal.

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But the rank in category is kind of like the new way they are scoring Wild Bunch matches ;)

Yep. Here's a funny (ha,ha) story.

 

Buffalo Stampede Wild Bunch match was just held a couple week ago. It was scored with the Percentage of Best Shooter in Category (AKA, Value Points) method. Well, it just so happened that in the Category scoring a certain shooter got third place in category. But when you look at the overall rankings, that same shooter was shown as "well ahead" of the second place shooter in the category. It comes from using a different basis for the "winner" in two different ranking calculations. For a scoring method to be totally consistent, it has to use the SAME BASIS all the time. It's a problem that we are still trying to find a good solution to, both for Cowboy and WB scoring.

 

Good luck, GJ

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All I can say is wow. All these years and we're still debating this topic. :)

Once we settle this, maybe we can work on convincing the WB the real problem with SASS: 97's only place is in the duck blind! :ph34r:

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Howdy Pards....I guess I'm the hombre that started this here uprisin' and after all the talk and such my old brain has been joggled and caused me to have a question. If a shooter wins with TT doesn't it stand to reason that he/she has (more than likely) shot faster at the various stages than most of the other competitors and thereby should place higher ? I mean all I see RS is for, according to many of the pards that spoke their mind on this here topic, is too help out a shooter who flubs up real bad and gets a SDQ or two....but that having been said, I personally have no problem with RS as it, just like the stages, is the same for every shooter. But I have heard it said that if a cowboy gets a SDQ they should not be able to win anything as that is what a DQ means....a penalty that is intended to be a PENALTY.

But anyway trailhands, which ever way the match is scored, I will be there to be SAFE & have FUN !

2 Gunz

 

"Honor To Whom Honor Due"

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Howdy Pards....I guess I'm the hombre that started this here uprisin' and after all the talk and such my old brain has been joggled and caused me to have a question. If a shooter wins with TT doesn't it stand to reason that he/she has (more than likely) shot faster at the various stages than most of the other competitors and thereby should place higher ? I mean all I see RS is for, according to many of the pards that spoke their mind on this here topic, is too help out a shooter who flubs up real bad and gets a SDQ or two....but that having been said, I personally have no problem with RS as it, just like the stages, is the same for every shooter. But I have heard it said that if a cowboy gets a SDQ they should not be able to win anything as that is what a DQ means....a penalty that is intended to be a PENALTY.

But anyway trailhands, which ever way the match is scored, I will be there to be SAFE & have FUN !

2 Gunz

 

"Honor To Whom Honor Due"

Nope...ya don't get RP scoring yet.

 

One shooter can beat the crap out of another shooter on all but one stage and still lose.

 

Phantom

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Guys, Thant would have to be on heck uv a stage to carry the entire match wouldn't it ?

It's the nature of Rank Point scoring. I've been to matches where the entire thing hinges on one shot. 5 second bonus for a hit, 5 second penalty for a miss. That's a 10 second target. Better hope the spotters are paying attention in case you get an edger....

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Doc, You are correct about the spotters....it is a harder job than it looks like. I've had a match with a 10 seconds target possibility, but it sounds fun !

 

"Honor To Whom Honor Due"

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How often has it actually happened where RS beat TT? Is it common, or is it one of those "statistical anomalies" that crop up every once in blue moon to confound us? I kind of prefer TT, just seems simpler, but I'm going to be bottom third of the pack, clawing to make it to top 1/2 either way! I've got no problem with a stage DQ knocking somebody out if the money. A SDQ is supposed to be a major penalty.

 

Just the view from my (so new the leather still squeaks) saddle.

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Charlie, you're shooting a TT match and miss on a stage, it costs you 5 seconds off your TT. If someone else has a miss on a different stage you get the same result.

 

With RP, let's say a fast shooter has a miss, depending on the distribution of fast shooters he may lose fewer rank points than a middle of the pack shooter who has lots of folks who shoot close to his speed.

 

So today, I shoot a 16 second stage, with a miss, for a 21 second stage time, only 7 or 8 guys are shooting sub 21 second stages, so it costs me maybe 5 RPs. Another shooter shoots it in 26, with a miss for a 31 second stages time, but 14+ shooters are shooting in he 26-31 second range and it costs him 10 RPs. Fair?

 

Or, it's a fairly easy stage and the speedy end of the distribution bunches up some. A super fast shooter misses and loses major rank points because there are lots of shooters in that five second window. On another more difficult stage the times spread out a bit and a different super fast shooter misses, but the gap between super fast and just fast is more pronounced, so this shooter loses fewer rank points than the first one because it isn't as crowded behind him. Both had one miss, but one loses more RPs than te other. Fair? You decide.

 

Hoss, I can think of at least 10 matches where I either won (category) due to RPs without winning on TT, or lost on RPs while having a better TT, and I've only shot 100 matches (as of today's match).

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Yes, thats true. He can also win one out of six withTT and beat crap out of someone. So what's your point?

The point is that winning by .1 secs or by 10 secs over the next guy can mean the same thing in RP...ONE RANK POINT. So you can accumulate a lot of time between the two shooters and end up with just a few RP's between them.

 

So...If you beat the other buy by 9 seconds over 9 stages and then lose the 10 stage by 2 seconds...or 1 second...or whatever, RP may declare the guy that one that last stage the winner.

 

Sure, it's unlikely, but it definitely can happen.

 

Or, if you are real fast, you can have a miss and have it cost you NOTHING. That sounds like a great scoring system doesn't it.

 

Phantom

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The point is that winning by .1 secs or by 10 secs over the next guy can mean the same thing in RP...ONE RANK POINT. So you can accumulate a lot of time between the two shooters and end up with just a few RP's between them.

 

So...If you beat the other buy by 9 seconds over 9 stages and then lose the 10 stage by 2 seconds...or 1 second...or whatever, RP may declare the guy that one that last stage the winner.

 

Sure, it's unlikely, but it definitely can happen.

 

Or, if you are real fast, you can have a miss and have it cost you NOTHING. That sounds like a great scoring system doesn't it.

 

Phantom

 

As I have already stated, I don't care which system is in place, I see merits in both. Just saying that you can dream up scenarios for either where someone gets tatoo'd. Shooter A wins stages one through 9 by one second each, has a P and a miss on stage 19 and shooter B shoots it clean, 1 second slower raw time. Shooter B beats shooter A 1 out of 10 stages, wins the match by 5 seconds. Shooter B should be pleased?

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As I have already stated, I don't care which system is in place, I see merits in both. Just saying that you can dream up scenarios for either where someone gets tatoo'd. Shooter A wins stages one through 9 by one second each, has a P and a miss on stage 19 and shooter B shoots it clean, 1 second slower raw time. Shooter B beats shooter A 1 out of 10 stages, wins the match by 5 seconds. Shooter B should be pleased?

I've yet to hear a compelling reason to keep RP scoring. We hear about some issues with TT...but we also hear about a lot of positive aspects to it. Very little positive aspects for RP have been brought up.

 

One reason that some folks in the Big Offices like RP is because it (RP), keeps the winner of the match in question...and makes for more excitement at the awards ceremony. Seriously...this is one of the BIG reasons why "They" like it.

 

That's not much of a compelling reason to keep the scoring system.

 

And you also know that I'll NEVER not shoot a match because of it's scoring system.

 

Phantom

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How often has it actually happened where RS beat TT? Is it common, or is it one of those "statistical anomalies" that crop up every once in blue moon to confound us? I kind of prefer TT, just seems simpler, but I'm going to be bottom third of the pack, clawing to make it to top 1/2 either way! I've got no problem with a stage DQ knocking somebody out if the money. A SDQ is supposed to be a major penalty.

 

Just the view from my (so new the leather still squeaks) saddle.

It only happens about half the time where Rank beats Total Time, so not too common :angry:

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The point is that winning by .1 secs or by 10 secs over the next guy can mean the same thing in RP...ONE RANK POINT. So you can accumulate a lot of time between the two shooters and end up with just a few RP's between them.

 

So...If you beat the other buy by 9 seconds over 9 stages and then lose the 10 stage by 2 seconds...or 1 second...or whatever, RP may declare the guy that one that last stage the winner.

 

Sure, it's unlikely, but it definitely can happen.

 

Or, if you are real fast, you can have a miss and have it cost you NOTHING. That sounds like a great scoring system doesn't it.

 

Phantom

Your points in order:

 

So? Different race tracks, some a circle, some a road coarse, others a straight dragstrip... You might be real good at drags, left turn only ovals, but have "issues" with combination turns...

 

RP you'd have 9 rank points for the 9 stages you've won, and if the same shooter were 2nd in all 9 stages he'd have 18, them if he won stage 10 his toral would be 19, you'd have be 11th on stage 10 to lose the match, because even if you were 10th on stage 10, you'd also have 19 RPs, but would, as a tie is decided by TT. Yes, unlikely, see above.

 

The same can be true in TT also.

I've yet to hear a compelling reason to keep RP scoring. We hear about some issues with TT...but we also hear about a lot of positive aspects to it. Very little positive aspects for RP have been brought up.

 

One reason that some folks in the Big Offices like RP is because it (RP), keeps the winner of the match in question...and makes for more excitement at the awards ceremony. Seriously...this is one of the BIG reasons why "They" like it.

 

That's not much of a compelling reason to keep the scoring system.

 

And you also know that I'll NEVER not shoot a match because of it's scoring system.

 

Phantom

There are a few compelling reasons... 1 - a match consists of discrete games, not a series of laps. Much as a baseball series is decided on the number of games won, not the total number runs scored; win a game by 1 run or 9 runs, it's still only 1 win. 2- the value of any placennt of any stage is equal to that same placement on any other stage. 3 - it is exceedingly harder to develop and maintain a "lead", it really doesn't matter that you beat the next best finisher by 5 seconds on the last 5 stages, what matters is what everyone does on the next 5.

 

But what's positive to one, might be a negative to others. I find it difficult to accept that Shooter A shot a better match when he averages 2nd place, but did it 3 seconds faster than Shooter B who averaged 1-¾s place. I would view it differently if each stage were identical to the others. I'm not saying "A" shot poorly, far from it, but what if "B" were clean and "A" weren't; or reverse that?

 

And what does it matter if you can't tell who's won before the awards. If it's important, volunteer to help score!

 

It only happens about half the time where Rank beats Total Time, so not too common :angry:

In the overall, 50% is probably quite a bit higher than the actual number of occurrences where the winner would change based on scoring method. The larger the match, with a higher number of potential top shooters increases the probablity... but, it's never a foregone conclusion... Yje influences shooters in various categories have on other category finishes happen more often. And would be troubling if they had been shooting stages. But... Duelists, Gunfighter, Frontiersmen, FC, all shoot the same stages under the same rules for order of targets, movement, etc.

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Griff - your posts are too long...for my simple mind.

 

Using your Baseball analogy, when you lose a game, regardless of the score, you're down ONE game. Can't be anything else but ONE game. Using RP, you lose a stage, you could be down...a LOT! Oh, and each game lost or won will result in some UNKNOWN quantity of rank points either in your favor or your competition's favor.

 

Yeah...great system. Love the baseball analogy...perhaps baseball should assign random wins/loses to each team after each stage...I mean game.

 

Phantom

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In the overall, 50% is probably quite a bit higher than the actual number of occurrences where the winner would change based on scoring method. The larger the match, with a higher number of potential top shooters increases the probablity... but, it's never a foregone conclusion... Yje influences shooters in various categories have on other category finishes happen more often. And would be troubling if they had been shooting stages. But... Duelists, Gunfighter, Frontiersmen, FC, all shoot the same stages under the same rules for order of targets, movement, etc.

Rank Scoring is mandatory for Regionals, EOT and WR. Some other large matches use it also, so the occurance rate for TT and Rank to be different is larger for these large matches.

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Griff - your posts are too long...for my simple mind.

 

Using your Baseball analogy, when you lose a game, regardless of the score, you're down ONE game. Can't be anything else but ONE game. Using RP, you lose a stage, you could be down...a LOT! Oh, and each game lost or won will result in some UNKNOWN quantity of rank points either in your favor or your competition's favor.

 

Yeah...great system. Love the baseball analogy...perhaps baseball should assign random wins/loses to each team after each stage...I mean game.

 

Phantom

Certainly not true... yeah, my posts can be long, I know you ain't simple-minded.

 

Just using baseball analogy to go along with two shooter scenario. tournament play would be far more convoluted... leading to inability to determine winner without computer... leaving competitors confused and... oh wait, we're agreein'.... something's GOT to be wrong! :ph34r::lol::lol:

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RP is even worse in the slower categories like duelist/Classic where a miss or P could literally be 100-300 RP.

 

The only benefit that I see in the RP system is the importance of error free performance over speed because adding 5/10 or a hat-trick P & Miss 15 pretty much seals the deal against a top place in any category these days.

 

Funny to hear things like "Now it's up to the rank gods" before awards....should tell ya something.

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Following the baseball analogy.....

Team A scores 1 run in every inning thru 8, while shutting out team B. Score is 8-0 going into the 9th. Team B as a "big inning", and scores 10, while team A once again scores 1. Team a has been very consistent, with only 1 bad inning, yet team B wins game 10-9. Is that unfair?

 

As long as scoring system is known ahead of time, I don't see that either way is "unfair" . It just is what it is.

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Following the baseball analogy.....

Team A scores 1 run in every inning thru 8, while shutting out team B. Score is 8-0 going into the 9th. Team B as a "big inning", and scores 10, while team A once again scores 1. Team a has been very consistent, with only 1 bad inning, yet team B wins game 10-9. Is that unfair?

 

As long as scoring system is known ahead of time, I don't see that either way is "unfair" . It just is what it is.

Okay...so using a baseball analogy where one team doesn't have a bad inning...they have a complete TRAIN WRECK!!!! No scoring system is going to help ya out when you implode like that...come on...

 

Just because you know the scoring system doesn't change the VALUE of the scoring system...again, come on. If you throw names into a hat and pull out winners names...and you know that this is the score methodology prior to starting the match...does that make this scoring method...good???

 

...just sittin here shakin me old head...wondering how folks think sometimes...

 

:mellow:

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Following the baseball analogy.....

Team A scores 1 run in every inning thru 8, while shutting out team B. Score is 8-0 going into the 9th. Team B as a "big inning", and scores 10, while team A once again scores 1. Team a has been very consistent, with only 1 bad inning, yet team B wins game 10-9. Is that unfair?

As long as scoring system is known ahead of time, I don't see that either way is "unfair" . It just is what it is.

Nope, but RP scoring would result in team A winning, 8 innings to 1, not team B 10-9.

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Actually I was trying to make your arguement for you, by refuting th baseball series analogy, by showing a stage = an inning in a game, rather than a game in a series.

 

Nobody suggested drawing a winner out of a hat. But if that's what you sign up for, and that's the way the winner is selected, ya got no complaint.

 

And I'm thinking if you have the proverbial train wreck, whether RP or TT you probably ain't gonna win.

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Nope, but RP scoring would result in team A winning, 8 innings to 1, not team B 10-9.

Exactly. I'm not arguing for RP, I think TT is the better way.

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Heck I can't even read Griff's post in that frilly lookin text. I have to expand it way to much on the iPad. Or put my glass' on, which defeats the purpose of the iPad. I can read everybody else's post just.

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Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Nope, but RP scoring would result in team A winning, 8 innings to 1, not team B 10-9.

Actually it would be team A 10 rank points and team B 17 rank points ;)

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Heck I can't even read Griff's post in that frilly lookin text. I have to expand it way to much on the iPad. Or put my glass' on, which defeats the purpose of the iPad. I can read everybody else's post just.

I have same problem on my iPhone.

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All I can say is wow. All these years and we're still debating this topic. :)

Once we settle this, maybe we can work on convincing the WB the real problem with SASS: 97's only place is in the duck blind! :ph34r:

 

SASS/CAS without the '97 would be akin to Laurel without Hardy, Harley without Davidson, Sears without Roebuck, Walter without Leroy, and Widder without a shotgun..... :lol:

 

 

..........WIdder

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