Grizzly Dave Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I've only shot gunfighter for one match, of the 6 stages one was split pistol as I remember it. Which was fine with me, that is part of the category. I agree that variety makes for more interesting matches. We had a shoot five move and shoot five more rifle sequence last month. Maybe it's because I'm left handed or the way I was brought up, but I uderstand well that the world is not going to change to fit me. The are no perfect stages that accomidate everyones strengths and preferences. Monthly matches should throw as many possible variations into stages so that when you go to a big match you're not going to see something totally new to you, it also keeps it fun and challenging. I would agree that matches need to be fair, and if stage writing is purposely skewed for, or against any particular category that it should be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Our resident hot rock, stage writer, Armed To The Teeth, had the most gun-fighter friendly stage ever written some time back. The stage description stipulated that the pistols had to be shot in any style EXCEPT what you usually shoot. It was pretty comical watching the squaw grippers shooting Dualist or gunfighter. Our regular gunfighters and dualist's really smoked us on that stage!. Olen, whose weak hand is really weak! AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGH! "Comical?" NOT! Just say no to scenarios requiring the use of a weak hand. It is a safety issue!!! I would strongly object to being given a penalty for refusing to do so in a main match. Ditto, to requiring someone to shoot duelist style when they do not already shoot Duelist or GF. At a recent annual, I was determined to give the Plainsman Event a try after many years of not shooting one-handed. They allowed cocking with the off hand. Unfortunately, I shot one stage duelist just to see if I could. The next day my hand was swollen and black (from bruising/broken blood vessels) from just shooting 10 rounds duelist style. Luckily, I was still able to shoot the main match with a two-handed grip. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 ...In all of this conversation, NOT ONE DANGED* TIME was the left handed shooter mentioned as being considered when writing stages... Hi Darlin'! Like I told TN, you need to come shoot with us at Cowboy Town (near Sacramento)! I'd love to see you and Hatfield. Having a hat vendor at our annual would be a great addition! I cannot remember the last time we had a stage that favored rightys over leftys. Most clubs there have "gun order is shooter's choice." Sometimes, they will tell you that shooting position is shooter's choice, sometimes they will say a certain gun must be shot from a specific position or three positions must be used... Despite that, gun order is almost always shooter's choice. I don't mind starting on the left or right and prefer to shoot pistols last, as I am slow reholstering with the off hand. So, I engage the stage flowing toward the pistols. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cherokee Sargent Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 THANKS UGLY FOR THE KIND WORDS, ONCE I WAS TOLD BUILD IT AND THEY WILL COME!!!! I LET THEM KNOW & MANY CHOSE POORLY!! MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olen Rugged Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGH! "Comical?" NOT! Just say no to scenarios requiring the use of a weak hand. It is a safety issue!!! I would strongly object to being given a penalty for refusing to do so in a main match. Ditto, to requiring someone to shoot duelist style when they do not already shoot Duelist or GF... Regards, Allie Mo Miz Allie Mo, I mentioned my weak hand as an aside, No one was forced to shoot weak hand only. Guns were staged on the table as I recall so there was no issue with holstering.. I don't think there were any procedural given for anyone that felt they might be unsafe. Up till that time I had NEVER shot a SA revolvin' pistol with one hand, though I have shot many rounds that way with a 1911 pistol. I did get all my hits...slowly. And it was comical, especially watching the guy who dreamed it up getting multiple misses shooting gunfighter. Olen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamrock Sadie Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 SE Regional gives options for starting on the Left or Right. Match Director is a lefty and writes excellent stages! He considers South Paws, gunfighters, 87/97, SxS, close/far targets....and NO boxes! Match is the 2nd weekend in November. You can sign up all way until the 1st shot is down range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I agree with the others that said 1 in 6 is plenty. Shooters of all categories like options, not everyone transitions with the same hand. Give shooters options, like start sweeps on either end, instead always start on the left , this gives the lefties the same natural flow as right handers. Allow shooters to start stages on either side of the stage ie.. "Start with SG on left table", or "Start with pistols at right table" Another great way to break up stages is with the shotgun at different postions, and alternate between firearms. One of the best state matches I've been to was several years ago in SC (Givhans Ferry), almost every stage had an option of starting shooting positions, or start with choice of firearm, sweeps in either direction, and SG used to break up several stages, it was a blast. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Miz Allie Mo, I mentioned my weak hand as an aside, No one was forced to shoot weak hand only. Guns were staged on the table as I recall so there was no issue with holstering.. I don't think there were any procedurals given for anyone that felt they might be unsafe. Up till that time I had NEVER shot a SA revolvin' pistol with one hand, though I have shot many rounds that way with a 1911 pistol. I did get all my hits...slowly. And it was comical, especially watching the guy who dreamsed it up getting multiple misses shooting gunfighter. Olen Even if you are allowed to shoot with your strong hand, shooting duelist could present a safety issue for shooters who are less experienced, or for whatever reasons have a weaker grip. I would not allow my Buckeroo to shoot a stage like that and I would discourage my wife from attempting to as well. I don't go to matches to be the object of someone's humor, I go to compete and have fun. Being forced to shoot in a manner I'm not comfortable with doesn't sound like fun to me. If you're providing stage instructions that mandate that, but waiving them for anyone who asks maybe that would be alright, but it seems kind of pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Reading this thread as one who writes stages most months and occasionally the whole match for our local club I have to say it sounds like some stage writers need a little attitude adjustment. And some of the competitors. When I write a match I try to have 1/2 of the stages left hand friendly. Not because I am left handed or even partial to left handers but it seems only fair to me to have to deal with what they have to deal with most matches. Plus it is a weakness for most right handers (including me) to move the other direction so why not put something in to help them work on their game. I try not to have split pistols (pistol, other gun, pistol) often, but it is boring as h@ll to have back to back pistols every stage. If a GF thinks I am doing it to intentionally mess with their game they are incorrect. It is something that is part of the game and I see no reason to not have a stage or two in a match that stretches my own comfort zone and is something that every shooter has to deal with occasionally. We are already somewhat constrained by the "don't end with a rifle" thing which often limits the possible scenarios to R, SG, P, P or P, P, R, SG or SG, R, P, P or some variation on those. BTW I will end on a rifle occasionally and simply make a note to tell the RO's to be more aware of the timer positioning on those stages to be certain to pick up the last shot. rant on I don't shoot GF because my left hand is unaware that it even exists to do something which certainly puts a crimp in being able to compete with two guns at one time, But to say that I don't know what a GF is dealing with is sort of like saying because I never played pro football I have no clue about it, or because I didn't have millions of dollars to sink into a race car I cannot appreciate NASCAR. How absurd!!! To say that I would write a stage to deliberately handicap a fellow shooter and give myself an advantage --- that is downright offensive!!! I and many others bend over to try to be as fair as possible to all, if your local stagewriters are playing that kind of game you should get new stagewriters! rant off I appreciate the difficulties a GF will sometimes face and work hard at not introducing a "bummer" situation into their game, but to write all stages to satisfy one group is to write some stages that are unsatisfactory to another group. And it helps to remember we are playing a game, there is no million dollar check at the awards ceremony for anybody. flame away Regards Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 As long as there is a place to safely stage the pistols, an occasional "Split" stage doesn't bother me. Shoot 5 - move and shoot 5 more is very doable. Shoot five, move and shoot another gun or two, then shoot 5 more is nefarious. The comparison is to have to shoot 3 shotgun targets, move and shoot another gun or two, them shoot 3 more SGs. Just as that is a disadvantage for double shooters, the previous scenario is a disadvantage for gunfighters. Any double shooter would balk at a match where the majority of the stages were written that way. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Betcha don't complain when the stage description says "alternate the two pistol targets for 10 rounds"!!! Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield. Next shooter, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Having been a Gunfighter since back before they even had the category, the thing that annoys me is when they have split pistols and you also have to carry something to another shooting position so that there is no way to carry both pistols and the item. An example would be shoot 5 pistol from the window, carry the moneybag to the next window and shoot 5 more pistol. Or shoot 5 pistol, then shoot 2 shotgun, move with shotgun to next position and shoot second pistol. I've never encountered stages where there was no place to restage pistols though. The local clubs and the big out-of-state matches I've attended have always been very accommodating. All that aside, all stages are Gunfighter friendly as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tn Tombstone Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Betcha don't complain when the stage description says "alternate the two pistol targets for 10 rounds"!!! Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield. Next shooter, please. I dont complain but I do cross my pistols so it looks better. I am the bug more often than the windshield. I love seeing the forum fired up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fordyce Beals Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 "All that aside, all stages are Gunfighter friendly as far as I'm concerned" Yes, that's how I feel. My Mom would have beaten me with a hair brush if I whined like this thread! Fordyce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I don't simply shoot gunfighter. I AM a gunfighter. And as a gunfighter, I don't mind a split pistol stage or two or a split and one or two shoot 5 and move stages. In fact, our annual, for which I write the scenarios, always has one or two split pistol scenarios. If a club has an annual that has 40-70% split stages and I know beforehand that will be the case I will not go. This is the case with one nearby club that has an otherwise excellent state championship match. I have already spoken with the match head (who I really like) and said, "I have no right to tell you what to do, but I also have the right to not come." No use going to a match to be pissed off. The stage writer has been talked to about this numerous times, but thinks gunfighters have an unfair advantage and that double-duelist is part of gunfighter anyway. I thought about just shooting duelist or something, but decided to just spend that money somewhere else. There's more good shoots around here than I can attend anyway. I've decided not to use the term "gunfighter freindly" anymore, because lots of folks seem to think that implies an advantage to us, when all we really mean is the stage does not put us at a DISadvantage. There are only about 2 scenarios that are truly an advantage to a gunfighter over a two-handed shooter. To the match directors that do take all shooters into account, I say, "THANK YOU!" Possum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Betcha don't complain when the stage description says "alternate the two pistol targets for 10 rounds"!!! Sometimes you're the bug, sometimes you're the windshield. Next shooter, please. No whining, just looking for a non-biased stage scenario. You must be a 97 shooter? The bulk of us who shoot GF just don't want to see a preponderance of stages written that defeats our way of shooting anymore than the double shooter wants to see odd numbers of split SG targets on multiple stages.If 4 out of ten stages had 3 SG, rifle, single SG, pistol, 3 SG, & etc., do you suppose the double shooters would not comment? Any stage written with the intent of "slowing down" a particular style of shooting seems to be a dis-invitation to return. The occasional twist is not what's being discussed here. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I agree with the others that said 1 in 6 is plenty. Shooters of all categories like options, not everyone transitions with the same hand. Give shooters options, like start sweeps on either end, instead always start on the left , this gives the lefties the same natural flow as right handers. Allow shooters to start stages on either side of the stage ie.. "Start with SG on left table", or "Start with pistols at right table" Another great way to break up stages is with the shotgun at different postions, and alternate between firearms. One of the best state matches I've been to was several years ago in SC (Givhans Ferry), almost every stage had an option of starting shooting positions, or start with choice of firearm, sweeps in either direction, and SG used to break up several stages, it was a blast. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy ^This ^This ^A thousand times THIS!!! Give shooters options. No, no matter how many options you give you still won't please everybody but, you'll please a heck of a lot more shooters than if you DON'T specify every single aspect of the stage. What does SASS have now, 90K+ members? That's 90K different people with 90K+ different physical ability and/or DISabilities. Write stages so shooters can decide how is best for THEM to shoot, not how is best for YOU to shoot. You want a FANTASTIC example of this? Check out the stages for the recent U.S. Open. That was without a doubt one of the most shooter friendly matches I've ever seen. More options to the shooters than you could shake a stick at. If memory serves me correctly, it had two stages out of 12 where you could either split the pistols (Shoot one pistol, then long gun(s), then the other pistol) or the gunfighters could shoot five, move to next location and shoot five more. Yes, props were provided for staging all guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tn Tombstone Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 +1 I agree with Philly Slim, love the options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tn Tombstone Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Allie Mo, we would love to come to CA but I am afraid I am on the "Califorina Redneck Terrorist" watch list and have been baned from the State, I will meet you in Arizona though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Someday!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I don't simply shoot gunfighter. I AM a gunfighter. And as a gunfighter, I don't mind a split pistol stage or two or a split and one or two shoot 5 and move stages. In fact, our annual, for which I write the scenarios, always has one or two split pistol scenarios. If a club has an annual that has 40-70% split stages and I know beforehand that will be the case I will not go. This is the case with one nearby club that has an otherwise excellent state championship match. I have already spoken with the match head (who I really like) and said, "I have no right to tell you what to do, but I also have the right to not come." No use going to a match to be pissed off. The stage writer has been talked to about this numerous times, but thinks gunfighters have an unfair advantage and that double-duelist is part of gunfighter anyway. I thought about just shooting duelist or something, but decided to just spend that money somewhere else. There's more good shoots around here than I can attend anyway. I've decided not to use the term "gunfighter freindly" anymore, because lots of folks seem to think that implies an advantage to us, when all we really mean is the stage does not put us at a DISadvantage. There are only about 2 scenarios that are truly an advantage to a gunfighter over a two-handed shooter. To the match directors that do take all shooters into account, I say, "THANK YOU!" Possum 100% in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I also should mention that they should do away with dumps. It kills a duelist in overall. Should not even be so much as 1 stage with more than a double tap. And sure should not be any triple taps or above. Or i am staying home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I like a good dump target now and then. I like 5 on 3, I like prescribed sweeps, I like triple tap sweeps, heck, I pretty much like it all. Dump targets and multi taps are useful in stage design where another part of the stage takes more time, or involves more reset time. What I don't like is stages that all feel the same in a match. I don't like shooting with someone who spends the whole time spouting off about how something isn't fair to them. I'm no good at texas stars or flyers, but I sure won't stay home if I know that a match uses them. The challenge of trying to improve at them, while frustrating, is fun too now and then. Now if I knew a match had them on every stage, then that might give me pause. There are at least two sides to every coin, more depending on how you look at it. Good match directors have the ability and take the time to design a match that is fun and as fair as possible to everybody, or at least the majority, given the constructs of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I also should mention that they should do away with dumps. It kills a duelist in overall. Should not even be so much as 1 stage with more than a double tap. And sure should not be any triple taps or above. Or i am staying home. WOW.....how boring is that.....all single taps and double taps.....oooooooohhhhhh boyyyyyyyy.......talk about putting shooters to sleep...... Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 WOW.....how boring is that.....all single taps and double taps.....oooooooohhhhhh boyyyyyyyy.......talk about putting shooters to sleep...... Stan It was a joke. But really. how would it be boring?? You shot the shoot-off at EOT. All single tap. Was ya bored?? (by the way. Was fun watching you boys from down there shoot the shoot-off.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 It was a joke. **WHEW** Sure glad to hear that. I love a good dump stage once in a while. You really get to find out where that ragged edge is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 **WHEW** Sure glad to hear that. I love a good dump stage once in a while. You really get to find out where that ragged edge is. Oh I find it. And normally pass it. But really. I bet you could write a match like that. Still be fun. And very few would even notice until it was pointed out to them. SORRY. Got off topic. Now back to split pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Frankly...this is silly...in my opinion. So now we can't have split pistols cuz Gunfighters are gunna be pissed?! Split pistols add another transition which measures one's abilities...and should be part a any big match. Those that think we write split pistols into stages to slow down gunfighters are crazy...paranoid...or somethin. I truly can't believe that those that shoot with both pistols at the same time want to keep those that don't from enjoying the challenge of running their pistols split. But...whatever. +1 . This is a silly complaint. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 You can say what you want, but I HAVE experienced it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 +1 . This is a silly complaint. Fillmore So, voicing your opinion and asking for feedback becomes a "silly complaint"? How many respondents to this post have voiced an opinion about target distance, either too close or too far? Consensus on that one seems to be not too much of either extreme. When a large portion of stages is an extreme, those with a preference vote with their feet. How are stage writers to know unless they hear it somewhere? And why not here on the wire with a little civil discourse that is so common? I will repeat it - witing stages with the intent to disadvantage one group is poor sportsmanship. I'll shoot as often as I can, but given the choice, I'll opt for the places that write the type of stages I like. CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bad Hand Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 ^This ^This ^A thousand times THIS!!! Give shooters options. No, no matter how many options you give you still won't please everybody but, you'll please a heck of a lot more shooters than if you DON'T specify every single aspect of the stage. What does SASS have now, 90K+ members? That's 90K different people with 90K+ different physical ability and/or DISabilities. Write stages so shooters can decide how is best for THEM to shoot, not how is best for YOU to shoot. You want a FANTASTIC example of this? Check out the stages for the recent U.S. Open. That was without a doubt one of the most shooter friendly matches I've ever seen. More options to the shooters than you could shake a stick at. If memory serves me correctly, it had two stages out of 12 where you could either split the pistols (Shoot one pistol, then long gun(s), then the other pistol) or the gunfighters could shoot five, move to next location and shoot five more. Yes, props were provided for staging all guns. I believe there are actually about 26,000 active SASS members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Filly Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Ok, I am a left handed gunfighter so I get the raw end a lot. I do not mind the shoot 5 and move. I don't care for the split pistols but as long as there is some place to stage so I can still shoot my category I am ok with that. It is really nice when a stage is lefty friendly or you can choose. It is a cross I must bear so be it but it is nice when MD think of the GF and the lefties. Painted Filly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calico Mary Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Ok, I am a left handed gunfighter so I get the raw end a lot. I do not mind the shoot 5 and move. I don't care for the split pistols but as long as there is some place to stage so I can still shoot my category I am ok with that. It is really nice when a stage is lefty friendly or you can choose. It is a cross I must bear so be it but it is nice when MD think of the GF and the lefties. Painted Filly +100 from another lefty LGF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 So, voicing your opinion and asking for feedback becomes a "silly complaint"? How many respondents to this post have voiced an opinion about target distance, either too close or too far? Consensus on that one seems to be not too much of either extreme. When a large portion of stages is an extreme, those with a preference vote with their feet. How are stage writers to know unless they hear it somewhere? And why not here on the wire with a little civil discourse that is so common? I will repeat it - witing stages with the intent to disadvantage one group is poor sportsmanship. I'll shoot as often as I can, but given the choice, I'll opt for the places that write the type of stages I like. CR Sorry CR, my response was quick and curt. I apologize for any inferred rudeness. My reply was based partly on how my club's resident Gunfighter responded at our last shoot where the pistols were split on one of the stages. Is was something like, "Oh goody! I never get a chance to shoot a stage with split pistols!" I agree if it's done all the time that it might have the appearance of being anti-Gunfighter. Let's not forget tho' that the basic rules take this into consideration. It IS part of shooting the category as the rules are currently written. Respectfully, Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It was a joke. But really. how would it be boring?? You shot the shoot-off at EOT. All single tap. Was ya bored?? (by the way. Was fun watching you boys from down there shoot the shoot-off.) Sorry I didn't catch the joke part. Trust me it would get boring. Been there shot that. Yes the shootoff was fun. I LOVE shootoffs that are all kd's Wouldn't want to shoot it every match though. Maybe I can do it again if I go back to EOT. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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