Split Pistols at big matches

[evil dogooder]

I dont complain but I do cross my pistols so it looks better. I am the bug more often than the windshield.

 

I love seeing the forum fired up.

 

 

I have a great pic of me at the mn state bp shoot like that. The sequence was so weird the only way i could figure to shoot it fast was half way through to cross hands. Didn't miss anyway that way and sure made cree vicor dave (sp) laugh.

 

I dont mind one is six but when its 50% or better you cant really claim it to be fair. So if i know someone purposely set it that way to slow us gfers then i see what category they are shooting and if i can i beat them at there own game. Just because i shoot gf doesn't mean im slow at duelst or squaw grip. In fact im actually a lot faster on most stages shooting squaw grip. I shoot gf because it suits me and its sure cool to watch when someone does it right.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Sorry I didn't catch the joke part. Trust me it would get boring. Been there shot that.

Stan

 

 

Was just jokeing. Will somewhat. As I really don't like to see dumps on pistols.

As it really does hurt a duelist shooter in overall.

 

But don't think a match without a dump or triple tap would be boring at all.

If you wrote the stages right. most would not even know it until pointed out.

lots of stages you can shoot and be fun and not have to even have a double tap.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Sorry CR, my response was quick and curt. I apologize for any inferred rudeness.

 

My reply was based partly on how my club's resident Gunfighter responded at our last shoot where the pistols were split on one of the stages.

 

Is was something like, "Oh goody! I never get a chance to shoot a stage with split pistols!" I agree if it's done all the time that it might have the appearance of being anti-Gunfighter. Let's not forget tho' that the basic rules take this into consideration. It IS part of shooting the category as the rules are currently written.

 

Respectfully,

Fillmore

 

So we agree? I took the OP as a heads up about an issue that bothered him, and I find that it bugs me as well. I have heard stage writers brag about getting the gunfighters, I guess that's when my eyebrow raises a little. I am all for challenging stages, and on a good day I can compete with most (as long as Deuce or his ilk ain't around) decent shooters. Good days don't come along very often, so the additional challenge of shooting left hand duelist on multiple stages is a handicap I'd rather avoid.

 

Thanks for taking the time to clear up your thoughts, hope I've been able to do the same.

 

CR

 

 

 

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

So we agree? I took the OP as a heads up about an issue that bothered him, and I find that it bugs me as well. I have heard stage writers brag about getting the gunfighters, I guess that's when my eyebrow raises a little. I am all for challenging stages, and on a good day I can compete with most (as long as Deuce or his ilk ain't around) decent shooters. Good days don't come along very often, so the additional challenge of shooting left hand duelist on multiple stages is a handicap I'd rather avoid.

 

Thanks for taking the time to clear up your thoughts, hope I've been able to do the same.

 

CR

And to be clearer. If you're going to split pistols you must make a prop available for the Gunfighters to place their guns on. That's what "our" Gunfighter liked about the stage I mentioned. He was able to shoot the stage as a true Gunfighter.

 

Fillmore

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

Was just jokeing. Will somewhat. As I really don't like to see dumps on pistols.

As it really does hurt a duelist shooter in overall.

 

But don't think a match without a dump or triple tap would be boring at all.

If you wrote the stages right. most would not even know it until pointed out.

lots of stages you can shoot and be fun and not have to even have a double tap.

 

My point is that there is a variety of options with the pistols so why not use them.........How many times in a row can you shoot 1's and 2's before it feels like "I just shot this"?.......Target placement helps but really......My goal has always been for the shooters to walk away from a match feeling like they just shot 10 different courses of fire, each with their own feel and challenges. I find it rather impossible to do that using only single taps and double taps for the pistols. Others may feel differently and that's ok.......I don't think designing a match to favor ANY style of shooting is not a good formula for success. Do three or more shots on a single target hurt duelists? I guess so BUT it is a part of the game. Just like split pistols are part of the game. Just like rifle reloads are part of the game. Just like single tap sweeps are part of the game.

 

You want to make a successful match.....Give the shooters a TASTE of all parts of the game.....not just the ones you like.

 

 

Stan

[Cowboy Junky]

Do I shoot it on a regular basis.....NO.....have I shot it? Yes.....FL State BP Champion Gunfighter for 2011 and we'll see in two weeks if I can do it in 2012.......

 

What I've tried to do over the years is work on the aspects of my game that I felt I was weak in doing.......years ago when we shot the rifle from 2 or 3 different positions I worked on being able to move safely during a rifle string. It turned out to not be so difficult once I worked on it. We used to do the same with the pistols....shoot 2 from doorway and move to window to shoot 3. Again with practice no big deal. Everyone has weak points in their game. Instead of lobbying to change the game around your weak points maybe you should work on that particular skill set since it is a part of the game......just like rifle reloads and pistol reloads.......

 

Stan

 

I stopped here because IMO there really isn't anything to add to this. We use to do pistol reloads, still do some rifle, etc. so if we keep eliminating everything that's slightly difficult we will end up like steel challenge......with 8 standard stages at set distances and a specific round count. That would be fair right.......but boring.

 

There will always be some stages that have an advantage for a leftie, righty, SXS, 97, duelist or even a Gunfighter so in the name of variety let’s not level things out to the point of monotony for any style.

 

IMHO though a great match will address all these things and balance them as well……….it’s harder to write a big match than many folks think……….and to many it’s like good chili……you don’t really know exactly what’s in it but you know you like it when your done.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

I always thought that "Double Duelist" was a shooting style that is only recognised in the "Gunfighter" section of the SASS rule book.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I always thought that "Double Duelist" was a shooting style that is only recognised in the "Gunfighter" section of the SASS rule book.

 

Jack,

 

I've been to many matches where it is offered as a stand alone category. If there are enough entries, I'm for letting like minded folk compete against each other. The next SASS recognized category I am lobbying for is FCGF - still puzzled as to why this was not included in the last sweeping changes.

 

CR

 

 

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

And to be clearer. If you're going to split pistols you must make a prop available for the Gunfighters to place their guns on. That's what "our" Gunfighter liked about the stage I mentioned. He was able to shoot the stage as a true Gunfighter.

 

Fillmore

 

Exactly. I don't mind at all if there is an occasional split gun stage if I can stage my guns. The stages that really slow me down are the ones where a gun is shot between the pistols and the action takes place at another position. Then I'm stuck with a mandatory left hand duelist (the posse can break for lunch). GF works for a lot of us because neither hand needs to be exceptionally quick to be halfway successful. My suggestion to stage writers is - If you want to shoot the pistols from two different locations, please allow for the GFer to empty both guns while in hand. Maybe this could be addressed the next time the sage conventions are rewritten? In the meanwhile, maybe more folk will become aware of how different shooting styles can be affected by stage writers.

 

CR

 

 

[Shooting Bull]

And to be clearer. If you're going to split pistols you must make a prop available for the Gunfighters to place their guns on. That's what "our" Gunfighter liked about the stage I mentioned. He was able to shoot the stage as a true Gunfighter.

 

Fillmore

 

 

As much as I hate it when people ask, "Why does this rule say........?", I'm going to do it anyway. The split pistol rule that states gunfighters must "stage" their pistols in between pistol shooting strings has always confused me because I don't understand why. I shoot Double Duelist. When I've finished with my first pistol the hammer is down on a spent case and I holster that pistol. Why should it be any different for a Gunfighter. When they finish shooting thier first five shots both hammers are down on spent cases, why aren't they allowed to holster their pistols until it's time for the last five pistol rounds???

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Philly,

 

I'll take a stab at this, although my stab is just a guess.

 

its because the GF is holstering 2 pistols 'quickly' that have live rounds with the probability of one of those pistols being cocked. Yes, although some folks think we are perfect, GFer's have to be extra cautious when we shoot 5 and move because of the tendency of having a cocked pistol.

 

If we cock that 6th round, we fire it on the target for a 'P'.

if we move with that cocked pistol.....OOPS, big penalty.

 

IF we reholster that cocked pistol and it goes 'bang', it messes up the day awhole lot worse than a little ole 'P' or SDQ.

 

Thats my take on it.

 

And, I must agree, although I've practiced my routine thousands of times and feel confident in my pistol handling, I still like this rule about not reholstering with the 'intent' of drawing and shooting them again.

 

Now, ain't that clear as mud.....

 

 

..........Widder

[Waimea]

As much as I hate it when people ask, "Why does this rule say........?", I'm going to do it anyway. The split pistol rule that states gunfighters must "stage" their pistols in between pistol shooting strings has always confused me because I don't understand why. I shoot Double Duelist. When I've finished with my first pistol the hammer is down on a spent case and I holster that pistol. Why should it be any different for a Gunfighter. When they finish shooting thier first five shots both hammers are down on spent cases, why aren't they allowed to holster their pistols until it's time for the last five pistol rounds???

'Cuz if a Gunfighter doesn't have a gun in each hand he's shootin' Duelist.

 

Shooters handbook page 13:

"“Gunfighter Style” is defined as shooting with a revolver in each hand. Revolvers must be cocked and fired one handed, unsupported, one right-handed and the other left-handed."

 

Probably get a penalty for it too.

 

 

Waimea

 

[Waimea]

Dang Philly

 

I misread your question and so my answer ain't really applicable but I'll leave it there just as a reminder to folks what happens when you don't read for comprehension.

 

 

Waimea

 

[Outrider, SASS #72622]

I think we all have obstacles to overcome in each category. That is the challenge!

I shoot FC & Frontiersman. I dislike dump targets, rifle or pistol. If I shoot three or more shots in a row, I have to pause for smoke to clear. I don't think they are plotting against us BP shooters...just doing their best to make it interesting and fun.

Not being a smart @$$, it's just a part of the game.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I think we all have obstacles to overcome in each category. That is the challenge!

I shoot FC & Frontiersman. I dislike dump targets, rifle or pistol. If I shoot three or more shots in a row, I have to pause for smoke to clear. I don't think they are plotting against us BP shooters...just doing their best to make it interesting and fun.

Not being a smart @$, it's just a part of the game.

 

The OP and most of us gunfighters have no issue with the occasional split - just don't really want a plethora of 'em. 3 or 4 stages with dumps is tough on us BP shooters, one once in a while is fun.

 

 

 

 

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

And to be clearer. If you're going to split pistols you must make a prop available for the Gunfighters to place their guns on. That's what "our" Gunfighter liked about the stage I mentioned. He was able to shoot the stage as a true Gunfighter.

 

Fillmore

 

As a note - I think we all dislike rules written as "you must provide", but making the sentiment known to more stage writers would help resolve the issue.

 

CR

[Guest talon macleod 29883]

Well Tombstone you certainly know how to get things riled up. After posting 6 procedures in 10 stages I left the range and stopped at the first church to ask for forgiveness .Good to see Becky I don`t think I saw you but I feel your pain.P.S. After one particularly nasty stage I shot Outlaw on the next just to bring the Force back. Talon

[Shooting Bull]

Philly,

 

I'll take a stab at this, although my stab is just a guess.

 

its because the GF is holstering 2 pistols 'quickly' that have live rounds with the probability of one of those pistols being cocked. Yes, although some folks think we are perfect, GFer's have to be extra cautious when we shoot 5 and move because of the tendency of having a cocked pistol.

 

If we cock that 6th round, we fire it on the target for a 'P'.

if we move with that cocked pistol.....OOPS, big penalty.

 

IF we reholster that cocked pistol and it goes 'bang', it messes up the day awhole lot worse than a little ole 'P' or SDQ.

 

Thats my take on it.

 

And, I must agree, although I've practiced my routine thousands of times and feel confident in my pistol handling, I still like this rule about not reholstering with the 'intent' of drawing and shooting them again.

 

Now, ain't that clear as mud.....

 

 

..........Widder

 

Boiled down: When I put my pistol(s) away, even if one gets accidentally cocked, it's still empty. On the other hand, if a gunfighter did that they'd have a live round under a cocked hammer. Okay, I can see where that would be a problem.

 

Thanks Widder. Sure glad I can see through your mud.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

As a note - I think we all dislike rules written as "you must provide", but making the sentiment known to more stage writers would help resolve the issue.

 

CR

How about,"...you should provide a place to stage the pistols in between strings. If you don't you suck as a stage designer."

 

Fillmore

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

How about,"...you should provide a place to stage the pistols in between strings. If you don't you suck as a stage designer."

 

Fillmore

 

Yer gittin' close!!

[crosscut hardy]

Philly,

 

Widder and I have discussed another good reason for the rule of not allowing GF's to holster after

shooting 5 shots on a split pistol stage. The TO will usually be on one side of GF and not be in

position to see both guns and/or know if a gun went in holster cocked.

 

Also, Possum said it just right about GF's not looking for any stages to be written to favor us BUT

we just ask for stages to not be written that puts us at a DISadvantage.

 

....crosscut hardy

[Widder, SASS #59054]

let me add another bad vibe to some stage scenerios where split pistols are required.

 

When long guns are required by stage description to be 'RESTAGED' and not 'MAKE SAFE', the Duelist and GF can be hindered in transitions. As a GF, I prefer to hold onto my SG/rifle while shooting the 2nd pistol in a split pistol type stage. When instructions make me restage, it becomes a different 'mind set' for me.

 

I can't speak for every GF. But when an important part of our game is transitions, stage scenerios should take into consideration how ALL the shooting styles can BEST approach a stage and adapt the stage wording appropriately.

 

This is not a new nor selfish item. We never tell a Traditional style shooter that they MUST draw their left pistol first. Nor their right pistol. Its their choice depending on how the stage is written. And so it is with Duelist and GFer's on stuff like 'RESTAGE' or 'Make Safe'.

 

 

..........Widder

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

let me add another bad vibe to some stage scenerios where split pistols are required.

 

When long guns are required by stage description to be 'RESTAGED' and not 'MAKE SAFE', the Duelist and GF can be hindered in transitions. As a GF, I prefer to hold onto my SG/rifle while shooting the 2nd pistol in a split pistol type stage. When instructions make me restage, it becomes a different 'mind set' for me.

 

I can't speak for every GF. But when an important part of our game is transitions, stage scenerios should take into consideration how ALL the shooting styles can BEST approach a stage and adapt the stage wording appropriately.

 

This is not a new nor selfish item. We never tell a Traditional style shooter that they MUST draw their left pistol first. Nor their right pistol. Its their choice depending on how the stage is written. And so it is with Duelist and GFer's on stuff like 'RESTAGE' or 'Make Safe'.

 

 

..........Widder

 

Widder-

 

Try to make Gunsmoke in Minn. sometime. Drifter and his crew write every stage with options that allow the creativity we're looking for. For some stage writers, I think it mostly that "re-holster" or "re-stage" seems like good language to put into a shooting sequence. I'm all about educating stage writers to think of what each word means, or lack of a word can mean. I like "make safe" as well.

 

CR

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

CR: thanks for the invite.

 

actually, no wording should be required because we all know that we are to make them safe.

 

but like you say, alot of folks prefer to 'put something' in the descriptions and I agree with you, alot of folks think its good language.

 

When I hear the words 'RESTAGE', I start wondering 'WHY' does this person want me to 'restage' and not just 'make safe'.

 

 

..........Widder

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

I do not shoot GunFighter but I do write alot of stages for my home club.

 

Number one thing is I never write in stage instructions whether stage is gunfighter friendly or not they can figure it out for themselves,pretty simple ,Gunfighters really seem to like that.

 

If pistols are split I always give a table or prop for restaging.

 

My goal in writing a match is to have a really good variety so in a six stage match I usually have one stage with split pistol where you start with one pistol and finish with a pistol or shoot 5rds and move and shoot 5 more rds ,in a 10 stage match you probaly get both.I also try to write a stage or two that will really lend to Gunfighter style like alternating on targets that are really spread out or a sequence that really lends to Gunfighter style.

 

My goal is not to hinder any shooting style but make a really fun match for everybody !

 

 

 

Regards AO

[royal barnes sass #5792]

I shoot GF with BP and have never shot it any other way. I don't mind a stage or two with split pistols where the second pistol follows the first. Don't even mind a split with another gun in between. I'll shoot it double duelist. When it gets to more than two in a 10 stage match I don't care for it but, bottom line, I'll shoot it however you wrote it. Our state match, The Uprising at Swearing Creek is always gunfighter friendly but will have one or two stages with split pistols. I sometimes will move with both pistols out but sometimes will shoot double duelist on that stage.

[Korupt Karl]

I have. And did for years. Shoot duelist mostly now. But still break out GF now and then. And will go back to it

again before long.

 

And still think that a stage or two with shoot 5 move shoot 5 should be no problem for a GFer.

 

You know they are going to come up. So ya better practice doing it. It's part of it.

 

So that. You don't shoot GFer so you don't know don't work with me.

 

I agree that shoot 5 and move...shoot 5 is no big deal and what makes GF cool and is not a hindrance but when it's split with a gun in between with no place to stage your pistols then it's GF unfriendly in my book. Whether it's intentional or not I remember a match director changing stages to add more split pistol stages so he wouldn't have to listen to the shooters complaining about it being a GF friendly stage.

 

I was fortunate enough to write stages for a state shoot this year and had one with shoot 5 and move and overall no one complained about stages being GF friendly. I posted a thread a long time ago about whether an experienced GF could shoot faster two handed on GF style and with one exception they all said two handed. The one who abstained had never shot two handed.

 

We can talk it til we are kicking a dead horse and it won't change. Good matches will continue to draw as the MD knows what the people want and he gives them just that. If a club doesn't give you what you want then don't go back....that simple.

 

Just my too scents

 

KK

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Well Now,

 

Been following this thread for several days and have got something figured out.

 

In all age based categories you may shoot Traditional, Duelists & Dbl. Duelist.

In duelist categories you may shoot Duelist or Dbl. Duelist.

In gunfighter categories you may shoot Gunfighter or Dbl. Duelist.

 

The common style regadless of category is Dbl. Duelist. Therefore I offer the following scenario.

 

At position "A" (stage left) holding Shotgun, engage (2) SGKD's, while holding shotgun in left hand (no prop/table0 shoot (3) pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep with right hand. Make pistol safe, move to position "B" (mdl. stage) make shotgun safe, shoot (4) rifle targets in contimuous Nevada Sweep, make rifle safe. Pickup shotgun and move to position "C" (no prop/table) and shoot (3) pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep with left hand. Make pistol safe and engage (2) SGKD's.

 

See what I mean? Everyone gets to shoot the stage Dbl. Duelist. Everyone gets to shoot the stage the same. Now when has that ever happened?

 

Well MD's here's your chance to please the masses. No thanks necessary.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Well Now,

 

Been following this thread for several days and have got something figured out.

 

In all age based categories you may shoot Traditional, Duelists & Dbl. Duelist.

In duelist categories you may shoot Duelist or Dbl. Duelist.

In gunfighter categories you may shoot Gunfighter or Dbl. Duelist.

 

The common style regadless of category is Dbl. Duelist. Therefore I offer the following scenario.

 

At position "A" (stage left) holding Shotgun, engage (2) SGKD's, while holding shotgun in left hand (no prop/table0 shoot (3) pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep with right hand. Make pistol safe, move to position "B" (mdl. stage) make shotgun safe, shoot (4) rifle targets in contimuous Nevada Sweep, make rifle safe. Pickup shotgun and move to position "C" (no prop/table) and shoot (3) pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep with left hand. Make pistol safe and engage (2) SGKD's.

 

See what I mean? Everyone gets to shoot the stage Dbl. Duelist. Everyone gets to shoot the stage the same. Now when has that ever happened?

 

Well MD's here's your chance to please the masses. No thanks necessary.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

 

Only problem here is the folks who cannot shoot with their off hand, for what ever reason. The simple solution, as often mentioned, is to allow options for every shooter so they can maximize their fun.

 

CR

[Utah Bob #35998]

I 'm short. I object to stages with tall props.

[Buckhorn Bud]

Well Now,

 

Been following this thread for several days and have got something figured out.

 

In all age based categories you may shoot Traditional, Duelists & Dbl. Duelist.

In duelist categories you may shoot Duelist or Dbl. Duelist.

In gunfighter categories you may shoot Gunfighter or Dbl. Duelist.

 

The common style regadless of category is Dbl. Duelist. Therefore I offer the following scenario.

 

At position "A" (stage left) holding Shotgun, engage (2) SGKD's, while holding shotgun in left hand (no prop/table0 shoot (3) pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep with right hand. Make pistol safe, move to position "B" (mdl. stage) make shotgun safe, shoot (4) rifle targets in contimuous Nevada Sweep, make rifle safe. Pickup shotgun and move to position "C" (no prop/table) and shoot (3) pistol targets in a Nevada Sweep with left hand. Make pistol safe and engage (2) SGKD's.

 

See what I mean? Everyone gets to shoot the stage Dbl. Duelist. Everyone gets to shoot the stage the same. Now when has that ever happened?

 

Well MD's here's your chance to please the masses. No thanks necessary.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

 

Great idea. Now instead of just upsetting the gunfighters we can upset everyone except the double duelists. Now what can we do to upset them too?

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I 'm short. I object to stages with tall props.

 

For you - you can stand on the props!

[Possum Skinner, SASS#60697]

To answer the OP: ≤20% should get no complaints from anyone.

[Wyatt]

I 'm short. I object to stages with tall props.

 

Bob,

 

Last Sunday the starting position was hands flat on table. The table was about knee level(for me). John E Law and another Pard lifted up the table about two feet so it was waist high :lol:

 

I feel you pain

 

Wyatt

[Pit Bull Tex]

I try to shoot GF and love it.I like to see the great gunfighters I shoot with move with their guns in hands.I don't move with my guns in hands.If the stage has split pistols I shoot it DD.I do understand what the real GFs or saying about the split stages.I don't really care how they are set up,JUST LET ME SHOOT.