Are 22's dangerous for our sport?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Have all the guns to get my girl started, but saw a post from a pard that is of concern. Apparently a bullet fragment from a 22 went into a person's arm

 

After 6 years of a lot of rounds down range I witnessed the very first time that a ricochet penetrated muscle. It was a .22 shot on a good steel plate almost 20 yards away. The fragment cleanly penetrated another shooter's forearm right through skin and muscle.

 

GG ~

[Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862]

I have been hit hard by a 22 ricochet off a steel target, fortunately it hit my vest. Hard enough it got my attention and probably hard enough to mark, if not penetrate, my skin. Target was somewhat less than 20 yrds.

[Hacker, SASS #55963]

Need more info on the target surface, angle of hang and location of recipient. Also what type gun and ammo.

 

Is it certain that this fragment came from this location and not another berm?

 

20 yds seems a bit long for a richochet off of a properly hung target.

 

my 2 cents worth.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

On another Thread, Brother King raised a very good concern over shooting .22 rimfire ammo at steel.

 

GG: I don't know the answer. I've always taken for granite that those little lead .22 bullets would disintergrate when they hit a steel plate but maybe not.

 

I'm eager to see some comments from those who might have more info on this.

 

I do know from experience that its not wise to shoot a bowling pin with a shotgun using 7 thru 9 shot.

 

 

..........Widder

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

On another Thread, Brother King raised a very good concern over shooting .22 rimfire ammo at steel.

 

GG: I don't know the answer. I've always taken for granite that those little lead .22 bullets would disintergrate when they hit a steel plate but maybe not.

 

I'm eager to see some comments from those who might have more info on this.

 

I do know from experience that its not wise to shoot a bowling pin with a shotgun using 7 thru 9 shot.

 

 

..........Widder

 

I hear ya on that...

 

..and 20 years ago I learned that shooting a propane tank (empty) with a 44 cal C&B doesn't fair well either....that thing bounced off into my leg and it smarted!

 

Yup...dummy me.

 

GG ~

[Pancho Peacemaker]

I've seen lots of folks show up to various ranges with kids in tow and a box of jacketed high or hyper velocity .22 Rimfire. The majority of the bulk rimfire ammo at Walmart is high velocity and jacketed.

 

Those types of bullets will bounce off steel with considerable energy.

 

Lead round nose, target velocity should be ok. I use CCI Green Tags when my kids shoot steel and it spatters just like lead centerfire ammo. The key is: it's not high velocity and it's not jacketed.

 

This chart give a good feel for how much variability there is in the .22LR load. Take a look at energy at 100 yards.

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rimfire_ballistics_table.htm

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Guess I should pipe in here: The match was a "MILD Bunch" put on as a sidematch to a Wild Bunch State match.

 

The round was neither jacketed nor a .22 HighVel. The fragment did not just penetrate; it actually went through and through the upper forearm of an adult male in a diagonal path that measured almost 4" from entry to exit.

 

The targets 'appeared' to be very serviceable, not particularly pock marked and the stand was well designed. As a further note, they were used without problem for the Main Match.

 

Was it a 'freak'? I don't know... just never saw it before. In addition, at the same time another shooter standing fairly close to the injured shooter was hit hard in the leg (jeans) and it didn't penetrate but left a reported hematoma 'around 3"'.

 

Prior to this I have never hesitated or even had a 2nd thought about being around someone shooting .22's or even shooting them myself on my AR500 targets. But, after the fact, I do remember a round hitting the table leg at my home range hard enough to leave a hole in the leg of the table (typical plastic top folding table). The target was a brand new Action Targets Evil Roy.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I've seen ...jacketed high or hyper velocity .22 Rimfire

 

No, I don't believe you have EVER seen jacketed .22 long rifle ammunition. Copper or brass plated, yes. That plating has not proven to materially increase splash-back, as it is very thin and deforms in a conformal manner, remaining attached the main lead core of the bullet.

 

A true jacketed round (a few .22 mag product lines have these bullets) would be considerably more prone to throwing off sharp and tough fragments when the jacket separates from the lead core.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Pit Bull Tex]

My grandson shoots here at the house all the time.I buy lead only 22s.I did let him shoot some coated 22s and jacketed, they come apart and go all over the place.The lead only 22s ,do just like the 38s,just mushroom .They dont have them every where.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I get more 'frag' from SG targets than anything else.

.22's are fun for cowboy type shooting.

LG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

Umm, I have seen bowling pins throw low velocity hard cast bullets back and the shooter. I personally would not shoot at a bowling pin with any low velocity ammo. As for steel and 22s, I can't say because I never seen it happen.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Just wanted to state that I am in the 'I don't know' category and never thought about this as I have shot many 22 rounds myself and been around 22 shooters without incident. With my little girl soon to be shootin' I might be over thinking this, but....well....

 

GG ~

[Grizzly Adams 3674]

I just, this AM, fired 550 rounds of 22 at our range. I do this almost every week, as do other shooters for practice. I have never been hit by frag and nor has anyone else to my knowledge.

[Cypress Sun]

I've never been hit by .22 frags, although folks shooting .22's has been limited to buckaroos. Had to dig out lead from .38's and .45's on numerous occasions. Getting peppered by shotgun lead, by now, has become somewhat normal. Almost all of this has been due to target angle, positioning and condition....although there was the one time that someone had full boat JHP in a .357. Got real bloody (and pissed) on that one.

 

Never ever, EVER, shoot bowling pins with low velocity ammo. It will return with just about as much speed.....only in a slightly larger configuration.

 

CS

[Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L]

Howdy,

Not any more than any other round, I had a piece of lead removed from my check at WR one year and I'm sure it wasn't from a 22, just a hazard of the sport.

 

KK

[twelve mile REB]

Everything, given the correct circumstance, will bounce or ricochet. In my experience and my experience is fairly extensive a 22 is no different than any other caliber in regard to the errant flight of the projectile after encountering another object. While I think we have all been struck by fragments some large some small the overlying reason why these fragments are flying about is not simple nor is it singular. The Action Target, Evil Roy model for instance is very well designed and causes few or no fragments directed at the firing line if they are in good condition. However, as the bullet deforms fragments are directed mostly downward but the fragment cone is 360 degrees. A target placed parallel to the firing line then will send some fragmentation up and slightly outboard to the face of the target. These pieces can find their way to the firing line or the adjacent firing lines normally these fragments are small and without much velocity. The target stands however can and do direct larger pieces of fragmented bullets in directions sympathetic to their orientation which is normally down again velocity is normally low. The most common bounce back problem from an Action Target is caused by the ground on which they are placed. Rocky or hard ground placement will result in more fragment strikes to shooters and spectators than sand or soft ground and the velocity will be higher as will the mass. The target is set at an angle that directs the bulk of the bullet down regardless of it’s construction thus retaining more velocity and more mass. I have never seen a fragment penetrate 4 inches of flesh that’s not to say it didn’t occur. I’m just saying that that’s a record of some kind for it to retain enough mass and velocity to do that if the target was in good condition and placed properly. Now if the target is set at an oblique angle from the shooter say about 20 degrees and I have seen this, then rather than directing the bullet down and away it would be directing it out and possibly up. In the case I’m think about the target was placed so that if the target face was parallel to the firing line then the shooter was slightly down range of the target but shooting at it 150 to 160 degrees relative to the firing line. That is always going to be a potentially dangerous situation that could direct large fragments with enough velocity to do harm. Always wear eye protection because everything will spit back not just steel targets.

12

[Waimea]

Howdy GG

 

I shoot Ruger Single Sixes and a Henry rifle all in 22 caliber as practice guns.

 

I have shot 1000's of rounds and never had an issue.

 

So I vote fer keeping the 22's and using them as much as possible.

 

 

Waimea

 

[J-BAR #18287]

"The targets 'appeared' to be very serviceable, not particularly pock marked and the stand was well designed"

 

 

In my experience, ANY pock marks can boomerang pieces of lead back towards the firing line. Not particularly pockmarked is like not being particularly pregnant...it either is or isn't!! I think this is likely to be the explanation.

 

Like so many others, I use .22s for practice. I use Evil Roy's targets with smooth faces. NO problemo.

[Cypress Sun]

Howdy GG

 

I shoot Ruger Single Sixes and a Henry rifle all in 22 caliber as practice guns.

 

I have shot 1000's of rounds and never had an issue.

 

So I vote fer keeping the 22's and using them as much as possible.

 

 

Waimea

 

 

 

You practice? You are an EVIL outlaw.

[Mustang Gregg]

 

Can anyone really say just why a .22LR would come back any more often than a centerfire cast bullet?

 

Askin'

MG

[Virgil Ray Hality, SASS# 37355]

One would probably have to have a really good grasp of physics to theorize why a 22 and not a 38. Not me.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

I'll add this, as I have witnessed it several times, and had 22 bullet fragments whiz by close enough to my ears that it was very audible, while I have seen others hit in the face with those fragments.

 

I shot NRA Hunter Pistol Silhouettes for a number of years. We shot .22 matches as well as Center Fire matches. Our steel

Targets were set at 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards,(or meters, either way was legal). The NRA changed the rules, moving the 25 yard/meter targets out to 40 yards /meters, because of the repeated occurance of splashback from 22 rimfire bullets. The NRA deemed that targets that close, shot with 22 LR bullets, was indeed a safety hazard, and so changed the rules. That remains the rules today.

 

There again, possibly the target orientation had something to do with it, and maybe some pock marking of the targets had something to do with it. I do not know, but I do know that the problem was with .22 Rim Fire ammo only. Center fire ammo was never a problem.

 

Definitely something to think about.

 

RBK

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

As GJ pointed out there are NO jacketed 22 LR rounds. Those that look jacketed may not even be so much as plated. I believe most just have a very very thin copper wash applied for cosmetic purposes. Some 22 mags are jacketed but the mag caliber is not legal except and somebody correct me if I'm wrong for side matches (derringer and pocket pistol).

 

Those using 22 lr sixguns and leverguns would do well to use only standard velocity rounds that are not plated or copper washed and appear to the eye to be all lead.

 

One problem with 22 lr is that the bullet may be hardened by the factory to a level that is too hard to disintegrate the way we like our rounds to do. This could be the problem we are discussing. Way too many pards use hard cast projectiles in their centerfire guns in this game. Hardest I ever got hit was with a hard cast 38 that came almost straight back (I was spotting) and hit me in the stomach. Bullet was not hardly even deformed it was so hard and could have been reloaded again. Good thing I have some extra padding in that area.

 

Hard cast bullets and too hard 22s are a problem and have more of a tendency to not disintegrate and come back at us. You can read all about this at cowboybullets.com and get your eyes opened to the truth.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

From the Handbooks:

 

Standard velocity .22 caliber rimfire ammunition is allowed within the Buckaroo Category only.

 

 

The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps.

Looking at Hawkes table of velocities, only the high velocity and hypervelocity .22 rounds exceed SASS recommendations, which are illegal in SASS anyway. I wonder what the person in question was hit with?

 

Our TO at the NW Regionals had splatter catch him in the family jewels. He sat out a stage.

 

[Waimea]

You practice? You are an EVIL outlaw.

 

Don't let it get around.

 

Outlaws is supposed to be notoriously lazy.

 

So if'n any of my OL "Friends" found out they might send me packin back to 49r.

 

Then you and Dang It Dan can take turn beating me like a drum.

 

 

Waimea

 

[Trailrider #896]

Howdy, Pards,

Without extensive testing, I wouldn't want to state catagorically that such an event cannot happen...especially since it did. However, I have experienced several situations where I can definitely state that target angle relative to the vertical can pretty much eliminate the problem, at least with .44 caliber bullets at 900 ft/sec. Specifically, I was shooting one stage where the target was about 4-feet in diameter, placed about five or six FEET from the shooter! The shooter was sitting in an outhouse and was required to "dump" THE ROUNDS into the target. I thought sure I was going to be killed or seriously injured, but "saddled up anyway" and fired both pistols. Now, it had rained quite a bit (those were the good old days in Colorado!), and there was a fair-sized puddle at the foot of this and most of the other targets. I was surprised and gratified to see ALL the fragments deflected straight down into the puddle. How could that be? Because the target was tilted with the top toward the shooter. I don't know the angle, but it must have been at least 10-20 degrees off vertical, and the horizontal axis was perpendicular to the shooter. I shoot hard-cast (BHN 17-22) at about 900 ft/sec, which tends to insure the bullets fragment. What would have happened with a .22rf standard velocity I can't say, but I would say the angle of the target definitely was instrumental to my well-being.

 

 

Ride careful, Pards! Godspeed to those still in harm's way in the defense of Freedom everywhere! God Bless America!

 

Your Pard,

[coloradoblackjack]

brother king,

pic's or it didn't happen.

cbj

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

brother king,

pic's or it didn't happen.

cbj

SHhhhhhh.... nobody knows where you dummy!

[Utah Bob #35998]

From the Handbooks:

 

Standard velocity .22 caliber rimfire ammunition is allowed within the Buckaroo Category only.

 

 

The maximum velocity standard for rifles is 1400 fps.

Looking at Hawkes table of velocities, only the high velocity and hypervelocity .22 rounds exceed SASS recommendations, which are illegal in SASS anyway. I wonder what the person in question was hit with?

 

Our TO at the NW Regionals had splatter catch him in the family jewels. He sat out a stage.

 

I find a 4" wound channel from a ricochet pretty amazing.

[Grizzly Dave]

I've been caught in the family jewels with the majority of a 45 slug, it ain't fun. Funny thing was earler in the same stage I got hit in the arm and had moved to try to avoid any more hits. After the second hit, I hid behind my cart.

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

I've been caught in the family jewels with the majority of a 45 slug, it ain't fun. Funny thing was earler in the same stage I got hit in the arm and had moved to try to avoid any more hits. After the second hit, I hid behind my cart.

 

 

How big is that cart?

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

To bounce straight back to injure someone the target must not have been angled to the ground at all. I do not understand the physics of why a 22 would bounce back more than say a 32 or 38. Is someone shooting rubber 22 bullets? I can certainly understand the comments on 22s being harder to hear the hits on some targets, but not all. Some targets just do not ring like others anyway. A good example are the low mounted Action Targets. When mounted high they ring a lot but the same target mounted low can be almost dead to try and hear.

[Iron Pony]

GG looks like I can do some testing for you, going to pick up a pair of bounty hunters today in 22LR/Mag to practice with.

 

Cant recall shooting SASS type targets with 22s but have shot thousands of rounds at falling plates, one of my big off season games, at distances of 10-25 yards. I know its an apples oranges situation but have never been hit by, or even heard, anything bouncing off the targets.

 

My local range has a falling plate rack that normally lives out at 10 yards. The plates are about 6" in diameter and the way they stand in the rack has them angled down at say 15 degrees from vertical. If you hit them high they can be taken down by a high velocity 22 from a rifle. You can do the same thing with 2 quick hits from a pistol as well but they have to be a very rapid dopuble tap.

 

If you want to experiment with ammo CCI makes a std velocity, non plated, 40 grain solid point bullet at 1070 while Winchester has the T22 which is pretty much the same thing. The Remmington subsonics might also be an option, they are hollowpoints and I dont know if that would make any difference, very quiet too.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

If you want to experiment with ammo CCI makes a std velocity, non plated, 40 grain solid point bullet at 1070 while Winchester has the T22 which is pretty much the same thing. The Remmington subsonics might also be an option, they are hollowpoints and I dont know if that would make any difference, very quiet too.

 

CCI is now making a new line of 22 ammo that seems Cowboy ready. It's their QUIET 22, which is a 720 FPS (rifle) round with a standard lead 40 grain round nose bullet. I've found it to be pretty accurate too. Quieter than the subsonic rounds from various makers. Might not be the right thing if you HAVE to knockdown a falling plate, but for stationary targets, ought to be great.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

Thanks everyone for all your input.

 

GG ~