Hit or Miss

[Goody, SASS #26190]

I'm beginning to think that there is some kind of a Rule Flu going around. Seems that lately we are seeing more and more folks who just can not, or will not follow the rules. This is just another in a recent rash of things that have no merit what ever.

 

If you miss the target and hit the stand, it is a miss. It shouldn't take a heavy thinker to figure that out......... I did it!

 

Snakebite

 

 

You don't feel that the host club has the right to designate what constitutes the target?

[Wyatt]

If the target is painted are you hitting the target or the paint?

 

If you are hitting the paint is it a hit or a miss?

 

If you use lead paint does everybody shoot clean

 

Wyatt

 

PS: I like pie

[Snakebite]

I don't feel that any SASS club has the right to make a mockery of the game.

 

Snakebite

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I recall reading somewhere in the RO manual for one of the shooting sports I participate in about "don't be a hard ass" or something like that.

 

CR

[Dubious Don #56333]

Target=hit

Stand=If the spotters are SURE it hit the stand and did not strike or otherwise clip the TARGET before hitting the stand well....that's a miss.

Bolt through target to stand=Really?!?.....seriously?!?

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I recall reading somewhere in the RO manual for one of the shooting sports I participate in about "don't be a hard ass" or something like that.

 

CR

 

This is one of the things that makes being a TO or an MD a real stressful job. ENFORCING THE RULES IS NOT BEING A HARD ASS. If you are a TO or match director and don't have the backbone to enforce the rules, then don't take the job. Everytime you violate the rules in favor of one shooter, you are cheating all the other shooters at the match.

[Anvil Al #59168]

This is one of the things that makes being a TO or an MD a real stressful job. ENFORCING THE RULES IS NOT BEING A HARD ASS. If you are a TO or match director and don't have the backbone to enforce the rules, then don't take the job. Everytime you violate the rules in favor of one shooter, you are cheating all the other shooters at the match.

 

 

+1

don't know why some think that going by rules is being a hard ass.

 

And I will try my best to do so.

 

 

Don't really care if a club wants to call hitting a stand a hit or not. just as long as everyone knows and calls

it the same for all shooters.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

I don't feel that any SASS club has the right to make a mockery of the game.

 

Snakebite

Seems to me that there are rules that folks just can't get their brain wrapped around enforcing. Leather rules, footwear rules, simultaneous-GF-cocking-shooting-rules, target stand rules. Worse, if a feller actually calls those infractions what are the chances that the MD or PM is going to enforce it? NADA... ZIP... ZILCH....

 

Not saying that folks should pick their rules, just saying that I've watched a lot of calls simply get overturned b/c of good-ol-boy, seniority, bullying, celebrity (includes the WB),youth, newbie, friendly posse (all buddies that always travel and shoot together). One could go on... stages shot differently...etc.

 

Hate to hijack the thread, but if SASS really wants to be taken seriously then line officers,PM's and MD's are going to have to become more like umpires than diplomats, arbiters and statesmen. The framework just isn't laid for that to happen soon. There's no gain to it other than braggin'...if there was money (or real prizes)in it then those spotters would be required to step up to a whole new level.

 

Look how much better the shootoffs are run at WR and EOT with recruited spotters/RO.

[owen judice]

At the Texas Troublemakers most of our targets are on single pole sucker rods hammered in the ground,we say at the shooters meeting if the target moves and you hear a sound like a hit because some one it that rod its a hit.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

This is one of the things that makes being a TO or an MD a real stressful job. ENFORCING THE RULES IS NOT BEING A HARD ASS. If you are a TO or match director and don't have the backbone to enforce the rules, then don't take the job. Everytime you violate the rules in favor of one shooter, you are cheating all the other shooters at the match.

 

My only issue is with the folks who want to take issue with a local rule that says the target starts at the ground. If (as almost all places do) the stand is not part of the target, it's a no brainer to call the miss. To reach out and chastise the ones who don't agree is being a hard ass. We have a small local club that shoots a couple of time s a month. The stand is part of the target there, probably always will be. We have a lot of fun. I shoot at several other clubs where the stand is not part of the target. We have a lot of fun. The time to drop anchor as a guest is when safety is ignored, not when a local rule riles you.

 

CR

[Snakebite]

Seems to me that there are rules that folks just can't get their brain wrapped around enforcing. Leather rules, footwear rules, simultaneous-GF-cocking-shooting-rules, target stand rules. Worse, if a feller actually calls those infractions what are the chances that the MD or PM is going to enforce it? NADA... ZIP... ZILCH....

 

Not saying that folks should pick their rules, just saying that I've watched a lot of calls simply get overturned b/c of good-ol-boy, seniority, bullying, celebrity (includes the WB),youth, newbie, friendly posse (all buddies that always travel and shoot together). One could go on... stages shot differently...etc.

 

Hate to hijack the thread, but if SASS really wants to be taken seriously then line officers,PM's and MD's are going to have to become more like umpires than diplomats, arbiters and statesmen. The framework just isn't laid for that to happen soon. There's no gain to it other than braggin'...if there was money (or real prizes)in it then those spotters would be required to step up to a whole new level.

 

Look how much better the shootoffs are run at WR and EOT with recruited spotters/RO.

 

 

Pard... I certainly find no fault with anything that you have said. Yes.. rules enforcement is a VERY difficult aspect of the game. No one want to be the "Bad Guy", and for some reason officiating the rules put one into that situation. It happens in every game that I know of... Baseball, Football, Tennis etc, etc, etc.. the biggest difference is that in most other games, those who are doing the judging are not playing in the same game. If they make a call on someone, that person will surely be a counter when they come up to shoot. So...it boils down to one thing... INTEGRITY! That is all it amounts to. We can not force it upon anyone, they either have it or they don't. A few flaunt it when someone is looking, but loose it when no one is looking. All we can do is our best at enforcing the rules. I have no choice, I MUST support the rules and make the call when ever I see it... but I will be the first to admit that I do not always see it.

 

Snakebite

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

We cannot loose integrity. If we could I would loose it on everyone world wide. Along with some good whirled peas.

 

I cannot remember the last target rod/pole "hit" I witnessed so it is a long time anyhoo. Seems like I have but I just really can't remember where when or how long ago.

 

So is this really a problem anywhere? Local rules rule but to me a "hit" on the hanger device, be it rod, angle iron, pole, or rack is a miss. Always has been.

 

Do we really have to spell it out in the ever thicker book.

 

Well it would seem we do, more's the pity...

[Grizzly Dave]

I don't feel that any SASS club has the right to make a mockery of the game.

 

Snakebite

 

Snakebite - if you are saying that any club who defines a target as including the stand, and makes that well know to all shooters at a match, is making a mockery of the game, well then I disagree. By and large it does not affect the match in any way, and I doubt the stands get hit often enough to make any difference in the scores. It is my opinion that as long as all shooters are notified of any club specific variations, so that all are playing under the same rules for that match, and so that the flavor of the match for lack of a better work is preserved, that it's all right with me. Now if clubs start waiving costume requirements, gun requirements, or other major components of the SASS game for state and above matches, then it's time to get concerned.

 

Now selectively enforcing rules for the good ol' boys club, that does make a mockery of the game.

 

Even though I don't agree with you on the point above, I sincerely appreciate all that you have done, and are doing for the game. You and others like you have helped the game grow up to where it is today. And it's a game I dearly love to play.

 

Grizz

[Eusta B.Fast]

WOW

for a group of folks that insist that they shoot for the fun and friendship, there sure seems to be a lot of concern about some really silly one-in-a- zillion chances for a five second penalty.

 

Sorry, just feeling a little antagonistic this morning

[Cowboy Junky]

We have a big rack that holds 12 targets......if you hit that is it a hit too? How far away from the target is ok……1 inch or 2 ft? It seems to me the target is well....the target for lack of a better word and the stand is there to hold the "target" in place. I'm all about benefit to the shooter but if you miss the target it sure seems like it would be a miss.

 

If you hear steel and aren't sure where the bullet hit that's another issue and should be benefit of the doubt.......Darn if we can’t get through the EASY one’s it’s no wonder the tougher ones are so confusing.

[Snakebite]

My only issue is with the folks who want to take issue with a local rule that says the target starts at the ground. If (as almost all places do) the stand is not part of the target, it's a no brainer to call the miss. To reach out and chastise the ones who don't agree is being a hard ass. We have a small local club that shoots a couple of time s a month. The stand is part of the target there, probably always will be. We have a lot of fun. I shoot at several other clubs where the stand is not part of the target. We have a lot of fun. The time to drop anchor as a guest is when safety is ignored, not when a local rule riles you.

 

CR

 

 

Friend... shooting the stand is a safety issue! Targets are suppose to be set so that the bullet is deflected down to the ground. The RO II course teaches us that. The RO Courses also teach us not to shoot a downed target. One reason for that is that the angles are NOT set up to deflect the bullet in a safe direction. THE SAME HOLDS TRUE FOR THE STAND. I've been around a while, and have never seen a stand that is designed to deflect the bullet down in a safe direction.

[Flying W Ramrod]

I see local "ammendments" to the rules all the time. One club says a round over the berm on stages 1-3 is a MDQ while over 4-12 is a SDQ. Why? Well, behind 1-3 are houses.

I see you can't load or unload on the move. Why? Lots of new shooters at that club. (I still think it hurts the new shooters to not learn properly at the begining).

I saw no tie down holsters.

I saw no gunfighters.

I see lots of stuff.

The ONLY local rules I agree with are the safety ones for that club i.e. rounds over the berm.

I can't agree with the ones to "make the game more fun" i.e. the stand is a hit, as it serves no purpose in the overall picture. Shooting, dressing, playing this game, as written, is fun. If it's not fun to you,then you need to find something that is.

The SASS rules are not burdensome nor unfair. It's to level the playing field for each category and to provide a SAFE environment for playing the game.

As far as integrity goes, I feel someone is always watching me so I try to do the right thing as RO/TO all the time. Don't think someone is watching you, look in the mirror, they are.

[Noz]

The single most unfair item I have run across in my SASS career is the Bar-3

 

 

Chickens

[Dang It Dan 13202]

Consider a knockdown rack. Hit the rack frame all you want, if the target is well built and correctly calibrated, target is not going down.

 

Any hit on the target, though, it's a hit.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

GJ, I know you shot EOT this year, so what do you call it when you hit the target and it doesn't go down? Never mind I know, it's "the World Championship".

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

GJ, I know you shot EOT this year, so what do you call it when you hit the target and it doesn't go down? Never mind I know, it's "the World Championship".

 

When I do that on a knockdown, I "say" things not normally repeatable on this forum, (usually) only in my head. But since I shoot CC and .45s, it's rare that my hits won't take any of the Founders Ranch KDs down. And, I'm one of the guys that the WB match chronographers love to test. To see if I'm going to win first prize for highest PF. Again.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

WOW

for a group of folks that insist that they shoot for the fun and friendship, there sure seems to be a lot of concern about some really silly one-in-a- zillion chances for a five second penalty.

 

Sorry, just feeling a little antagonistic this morning

 

People play golf for fun and friendship. They play Monopoly for fun and friendship. The play all kinds of games for fun and friendship. That doesn't mean most people think ignoring the rules is the best way to play the game.

[Anvil Al #59168]

The single most unfair item I have run across in my SASS career is the Bar-3

 

 

Chickens

 

 

You should see the NEW Chickens in place for this year.

[T-Bone SASS #36388]

Why did Y'all have to drag a little chicken in on this topic,,, there they were minding' their own business and then it happened !!!!!! Yes we have replaced 2 of the chickens on stage 5 and moved them to stage 4....

[Jacknife]

Are they them great big ole Dommyneckers? Or just plain ole Barred Rocks?

[Madd Mike #8595]

Snakebite - if you are saying that any club who defines a target as including the stand, and makes that well know to all shooters at a match, is making a mockery of the game, well then I disagree. By and large it does not affect the match in any way, and I doubt the stands get hit often enough to make any difference in the scores.

Grizz

 

 

wow

as soon as this becomes more accecptable

watch the stands git bigger

 

 

geeeeese

 

since I started sass

we, we have done away with hitting the hangmans noose (small target) and like actual cowboy type stuff

replace that with

hitting the stand is NOT a 5 second miss

 

what am I missing

oh ya

the cowboy code of ethics

honor

respectability

etc.....

 

slippery slope syndrom

 

where do we start and stop

if you hit the feet of a stand, is that a hit???????

http://www.challengetargets.com/Category/Pivot_Stands.asp

 

oh well

mileage will always varie

[Grizzly Dave]

wow

as soon as this becomes more accecptable

watch the stands git bigger

 

 

geeeeese

 

since I started sass

we, we have done away with hitting the hangmans noose (small target) and like actual cowboy type stuff

replace that with

hitting the stand is NOT a 5 second miss

 

what am I missing

oh ya

the cowboy code of ethics

honor

respectability

etc.....

 

slippery slope syndrom

 

oh well

mileage will always varie

 

Talk about wow, if you are saying that I am missing those things because of my opinion on this subject, then you are out of line.

 

I look at it this way, even if you consider the stand counting as part of a target a problem, it's not a wide spread problem, nor is it likely to be. Some clubs define a target as including the stand, why? you'd have to ask them, to me it's to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. Does it encourage people to shoot at the stand? Why on earth would it? There is nothing to be gained. Clubs have thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours invested in putting on cowboy matches, if they are a club want to count the stand as part of the target, it's fine with me. To be clear, I am talkingpole or rebar type stands, not the stands on knockdowns, as always, knockdowns must fall to count (except buckeroos)

[Madd Mike #8595]

Talk about wow, if you are saying that I am missing those things because of my opinion on this subject, then you are out of line.

 

I look at it this way, even if you consider the stand counting as part of a target a problem, it's not a wide spread problem, nor is it likely to be. Some clubs define a target as including the stand, why? you'd have to ask them, to me it's to give the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. Does it encourage people to shoot at the stand? Why on earth would it? There is nothing to be gained. Clubs have thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours invested in putting on cowboy matches, if they are a club want to count the stand as part of the target, it's fine with me. To be clear, I am talkingpole or rebar type stands, not the stands on knockdowns, as always, knockdowns must fall to count (except buckeroos)

 

I am not trying 2 bee,,, out of line

I am mearly letting other readers

understand how slippery slope can or may work

once again

I said can happen over a long period of time

 

I am hopeing that

what is good for sass in the long run is being thought about

 

if some clubs do this

and some clubs do that

then what do we have???

and as far as I know

no other shooting venue is a stand hit a hit

geeeese

 

thats all

nothing was ment personal at all

 

i can see it now

a feller on top shot tv show

areguing, for his stand hit LOL LOL LOL

 

part of the hard work that SASS has done over it years

is

the effort to make a SASS / CAS shooting experience anywhere in the world

a shoot with uniformity

so that, traveling shooters can expect a certain degree of (just that) uniformity

sure clubs have some freedoms

but, they need to think hard about some of the things they are starting to allow

 

a club allowing stand hits, in my must humble opinion

is NOT doing their shooters a favor (cuz they git used to it)

they travel many miles, go to other shoots, and perhaps, git, that stand hit, finially counted as a miss

and they lose to billy-go-slow for the first time.......or etc.....

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I am not trying 2 bee,,, out of line

I am mearly letting other readers

understand how slippery slope can or may work

once again

I said can happen over a long period of time

 

I am hopeing that

what is good for sass in the long run is being thought about

 

if some clubs do this

and some clubs do that

then what do we have???

and as far as I know

no other shooting venue is a stand hit a hit

geeeese

 

thats all

nothing was ment personal at all

 

i can see it now

a feller on top shot tv show

areguing, for his stand hit LOL LOL LOL

 

part of the hard work that SASS has done over it years

is

the effort to make a SASS / CAS shooting experience anywhere in the world

a shoot with uniformity

so that, traveling shooters can expect a certain degree of (just that) uniformity

sure clubs have some freedoms

but, they need to think hard about some of the things they are starting to allow

 

a club allowing stand hits, in my must humble opinion

is NOT doing their shooters a favor (cuz they git used to it)

they travel many miles, go to other shoots, and perhaps, git, that stand hit, finially counted as a miss

and they lose to billy-go-slow for the first time.......or etc.....

 

Now yer reachin'. I sure as hell am not lobbying for the stand to be defined SASS wide as part of the target. But I'm not about to tell some club that I don't run how to do business. Can't imagine anybody aiming for the stand on purpose, or getting miffed if they hit the stand a get called for a miss. What if an obvious AD hits the right target? I don't see this becoming epidemic, and I am surprised on the few occasions it's called that way.

 

Try playing Pinochle with someone from a different part of the country - one of ya is probably gonna have ta adjust to a few regional tweaks. There has got to be a better place to drop anchor than on the heads of a few folks trying to have fun, but who see things differently than you. Should we disenfranchise any club that doesn't? And then there is the "who gets to be King this week" thing to consider. Talk about a slippery slope.

 

If this has the potential to rip SASS apart, we should have a clarification from the rules committee, or perhaps an agenda item for the TG summit. Small bits of language or a general statement would suffce.

 

 

CR

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

People play golf for fun and friendship. They play Monopoly for fun and friendship. The play all kinds of games for fun and friendship. That doesn't mean most people think ignoring the rules is the best way to play the game.

I you!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

If I hit a stand...it's a miss.

 

If one of my friends hits a stand and wants it counted as a hit...I'll shame him till the cows come home...or I'll realize that purhaps I've gotta find me a better friend.

 

Come on folks...it a fricken STAND!

 

Or do you want to feel good about getting it called a hit??????

 

Oy!

 

Phantom

[Madd Mike #8595]

If I hit a stand...it's a miss.

 

If one of my friends hits a stand and wants it counted as a hit...I'll shame him till the cows come home...or I'll realize that purhaps I've gotta find me a better friend.

 

Come on folks...it a fricken STAND!

 

Or do you want to feel good about getting it called a hit??????

 

Oy!

 

Phantom

 

 

I agree totally

I am suprised how many that dont understand the problem that it could become

if more and more clubs were to allow that standard

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

If this has the potential to rip SASS apart, we should have a clarification from the rules committee, or perhaps an agenda item for the TG summit. Small bits of language or a general statement would suffice.

...

 

See post #11.

The reference was to the following:

 

PENALTY OVERVIEW

5-SECOND PENALTIES

• Rifle, revolver, and shotgun targets must be engaged with the appropriate type of firearm.

A “miss” is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type firearm.

...

SHB p.18 / RO1 p.23

 

Miss – a failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate firearm type.

RO1 p.30 - "Glossary of Terms"

[Goody, SASS #26190]

I agree totally

I am suprised how many that dont understand the problem that it could become

if more and more clubs were to allow that standard

 

Really? You agree TOTALLY? You say that one of the problems you perceive with SASS is people who whine and bully and cajole a posse into making a call. But you see nothing wrong with shaming someone who followed the rules of the club they were shootiung at? Amazing.

 

Now I don't care one way or another if someone calls it a hit or a miss. What I am saying is that local clubs have the right to designate what is and isn't a target.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Ya see, Fellers, down Tejas way, life is just a bit simpler, friends are a bit easier to make, the party is a party because someone said so, and a:

 

1) Target has a

 

2) Target stand

 

3) Target bolt

 

4) Target leg (s)

 

5) Target post

 

and a 6) Target chain

 

So.. if'n a cowboy is feeling spunky enough to double cock them smokepoles and aim the leff'un at da target chain and da ryt'un at dat Target bolt...sqyoze off dem trigg's inna symuletaineeeuz fashun' and be gud nuff to hitz 'em boff

 

Well, it ain't braggin' iffn' a cowboy kin do it.

[Madd Mike #8595]

Really? You agree TOTALLY? You say that one of the problems you perceive with SASS is people who whine and bully and cajole a posse into making a call. But you see nothing wrong with shaming someone who followed the rules of the club they were shootiung at? Amazing.

 

Now I don't care one way or another if someone calls it a hit or a miss. What I am saying is that local clubs have the right to designate what is and isn't a target.

 

Have you seen post 67

 

I am shaming the ideal, not a someone.

 

I believe that clubs should follow the governing rules set forth by the rules committee.

You may be asking why?

Shooters should be able to travel the world in the quest of experiencing what the SASS founders have set in motion.

They should not have to worry about which SASS rules those clubs will enforce, or which ones they will change.

TG meeting after TG meeting, we talk about this very simple concept, the attending TG’s are highly encouraged to go back to their constituents and explain to them the basic theory behind that concept.

On a action target (huge stand) where is the defining line, if a shooter hits kind of low it’s a hit, if a shooter hits really low it’s a hit, how about if a shooter hits the feet of the stand, not silly madd-0ne, that’s a miss. Talk about a subjective change to a rule?