Sportsmanship

[Three Foot Johnson]

Stage called for shooter to sit at a table, take a "poker hand" of five cards stapled together out of a pile of similarly stapled cards, and shoot the stage thusly:

 

Pistols on table, stage instructions call for shooter to shoot four cardboard targets twice in the order of the suits of the stapled cards.

 

Stand, holster pistols, move to rifle position and double tap four card suit steel plates in the order of the stapled cards.

 

Move to shotgun position, and start on shotgun target suit corresponding to the first (left) card in the hand, then shoot remaining three in any order.

 

More than one shooter questioned before shooting commenced if the pistol targets were to be swept twice in the order of the suit, or double tapped as with the rifle targets. The posse marshal indicated that they were to be double tapped. For instance, if the card suits were diamond, diamond, club, spade, heart, the diamond target would be quadruple tapped, then double taps on the club, spade, and heart. The shooter swept them twice - in this example, diamond, diamond, club, spade, heart, diamond, diamond, club, spade, heart, then got up, left the pistols on the table, shot the rifle targets correctly, then swept the shotgun targets left to right.

 

Shooter was told he earned a P on the pistol targets for not double tapping them, got kind of belligerent and said, "No, the instructions say to shoot them twice, I refuse to accept that penalty". OK, so we pointed out he didn't holster his pistols and take them with him, and he argued his way out of that one somehow, so it was pointed out he started on the wrong shotgun target, and he said, "No, you told me to start on the left". No, the stage instructions called for you to start with the suit on the left card (first card) in the hand. "No, I refuse to accept that penalty".

 

Anyway, three procedurals on one stage and rather than make a scene, the shooter was allowed to have his way. (After all, it's "just a monthly") Granted, it was more complicated than most scenarios, but the "stand, holster pistols, and move to rifle position" would have been hard to dispute. (I didn't hear how he got out of that one)

 

In hindsight, since I was shooting a .56-.50 Spencer carbine, a single shot shotgun, and warthog 255 grain black powder .45 pistol loads (FCGF category), maybe I should have said, "No, I refuse to accept that time. I'm handicapped by the equipment I chose to shoot today, so you'll take 45 seconds off my stage times to compensate for it because I'm capable of shooting better when I'm not screwing around."

[Widder, SASS #59054]

My first instinct would be to consider some medical 'thing' occuring. If the shooter is acting out of character, just try to get along with em and watch em closely.

 

IF the shooter is just an annoyance out of personality, club officials should have ways of getting it corrected.

 

AND, beyond that, I wouldn't shoot on any posse with him/her again.

 

But, thats just me.

 

 

..........Widder

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Shooter can appeal any call.

 

Shooter can not "refuse to accept the call".

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Only right of refusal the shooter has, is to refuse to shoot any more stages and go home.

 

Shooter may APPEAL the penalties awarded, especially if there was a misapplication of the rules. The shooter's confusion over what the stage directions said, though, would not be sufficient grounds to dismiss the penalty. That appeal normally would go through the posse marshal, then to the (monthly) match director.

 

Arguing the call, though, becomes interpersonal conflict very quickly. Which, of course, is not tolerated. Meaning, you may pack it up, shooter, that is a Match DQ you have just earned.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

In the OP, there is a discrepancy between the stage directions and the PM's verbal instructions. The stage directions were: shoot four targets twice, which would only be 8 shots. The PM called for quad tapping the first suit with revolvers, then double tapping the rest. But, shooting each target twice does NOT require the shooter to double tap the targets. Was there really THAT much misunderstanding of the stage?

[San Fernando Slim, SASS #20521]

A number of years ago there was a shooter who acted like that at one of the clubs I shoot at. They let it be known that he was not welcome there anymore.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

I issued one guy a SOG penalty for carrying on too long about a call. (The right call was a MDQ, but he didn't argue the SOG, took his 30 and shut his face.)

[Three Foot Johnson]

In the OP, there is a discrepancy between the stage directions and the PM's verbal instructions. The stage directions were: shoot four targets twice, which would only be 8 shots. The PM called for quad tapping the first suit with revolvers, then double tapping the rest. But, shooting each target twice does NOT require the shooter to double tap the targets. Was there really THAT much misunderstanding of the stage?

I'm sure part of the confusion was that there were only 4 targets, BUT five cards AND five/ten shots. Obviously, one, or more, of the targets could be shot more than once. Say P1 was a heart, P2 a club, P3 a diamond, and P4 a spade, and the hand was diamond, heart, club, diamond, diamond. The correct shooting order would be P3, P3, P1, P1, P2, P2, P3, P3, P3, P3, NOT P3, P1, P2, P3, P3, P3, P1, P2, P3, P3. If the hand were spade, spade, spade, spade, club, the shooting order would be P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P2, P2, NOT P4, P4, P4, P4, P2, P4, P4, P4, P4, P2.

This game should be a shooting event, not a memory/toomuchthinking event, and it really was too complicated.

[WymoreWrangler SASS 46187L]

P then Spirit of the Game and MDQ if he continued, end of story...

[Griff]

I'm sure part of the confusion was that there were only 4 targets, BUT five cards AND five/ten shots. Obviously, one, or more, of the targets could be shot more than once. Say P1 was a heart, P2 a club, P3 a diamond, and P4 a spade, and the hand was diamond, heart, club, diamond, diamond. The correct shooting order would be P3, P3, P1, P1, P2, P2, P3, P3, P3, P3, NOT P3, P1, P2, P3, P3, P3, P1, P2, P3, P3. If the hand were spade, spade, spade, spade, club, the shooting order would be P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P4, P2, P2, NOT P4, P4, P4, P4, P2, P4, P4, P4, P4, P2.

This game should be a shooting event, not a memory/toomuchthinking event, and it really was too complicated.

Perzacterly!

 

But... the shooter earned a "P", AND a SOG for arguin' the call. IIRC, that scenario was very much like the one used in my RO2 class about overly complicated and unfair stages. It depends on "luck of the draw" to initiate the shooting, and may just hamper gunfighter A, who draws cards that require starting on the inside of the sweep, vs gunfighter B who draws cards that allow him to start on one end or the other. Technically, not all shooters are shooting the same stage.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I dont understand why people act that way.This is to much fun to get upset about a call or a P.When I first started I got more Ps than a outhouse.I feel really good when I dont get a P.It has been a while and have not gotten any Ps.I guess I would shoot with the guy but it would be hard.All it does is take away the fun for others in the posse.

[Griff]

I dont understand why people act that way.This is to much fun to get upset about a call or a P.When I first started I got more Ps than a outhouse.I feel really good when I dont get a P.It has been a while and have not gotten any Ps.I guess I would shoot with the guy but it would be hard.All it does is take away the fun for others in the posse.

My day just ain't complete unless I get a P or two in.

[Tom Bullweed]

Someone went to a great deal of trouble to write what they believed was the 'ultimate' stage. It sounds ten times harder than any stage that I have shot. A stage should be robust enough that it does not change based on which suit of cards you draw. The 'luck of the draw' in itself would/could determine who did well on the stage and who did not.

I would have just shot it and believed that enough shooters would voice their negative opinions about it that it would never happen again. You can only get one P per stage; I believe that I would have earned one on this stge and got to enjoy the rest of the match. If that stage was normal to the club, I would find somewhere else to shoot. Shooters in my area are fortunate to have very good stage writers who keep the game fun AND fair AND challenging.

[Three Foot Johnson]

The pards that put this shoot on are very creative, and put a LOT of work into props and organization. This is one of my favorite places to shoot, in large part because it's not the same old mundane "Stage your guns on the table, Nevada sweep the pistol targets, Nevada sweep the rifle targets, sweep the shotgun targets L to R, proceed to the unloading table."

 

This stage was a bit more complicated than normal but still, good job, guys, and keep it up!

[Fairshake]

I agree that the stage was written with good intentions but as was posted was not a fair one as each shooter shot different. But that is not up to the shooter to argue about. I would have given him a SOG penalty with a warning that if it continued he was headed for a MDQ. This treatment of this shooter is going to make him one big jerk to shoot with as he now feels he rules the stages.

[J-BAR #18287]

Mom made the point that when I was around another child who was misbehaving, I should be especially nice so the contrast would be noticeable! Haven't always managed to do that when in an argument, but it's still good advice for ROs and MDs who are confronted with an unpleasant shooter. Being calm and smiling while not giving in to such a shooter is something we should all practice, myself included.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Mom made the point that when I was around another child who was misbehaving, I should be especially nice so the contrast would be noticeable! Haven't always managed to do that when in an argument, but it's still good advice for ROs and MDs who are confronted with an unpleasant shooter. Being calm and smiling while not giving in to such a shooter is something we should all practice, myself included.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Stage called for shooter to sit at a table, take a "poker hand" of five cards stapled together out of a pile of similarly stapled cards, and shoot the stage thusly:

 

Pistols on table, stage instructions call for shooter to shoot four cardboard targets twice in the order of the suits of the stapled cards.

 

Stand, holster pistols, move to rifle position and double tap four card suit steel plates in the order of the stapled cards.

 

Move to shotgun position, and start on shotgun target suit corresponding to the first (left) card in the hand, then shoot remaining three in any order.

 

More than one shooter questioned before shooting commenced if the pistol targets were to be swept twice in the order of the suit, or double tapped as with the rifle targets. The posse marshal indicated that they were to be double tapped. For instance, if the card suits were diamond, diamond, club, spade, heart, the diamond target would be quadruple tapped, then double taps on the club, spade, and heart. The shooter swept them twice - in this example, diamond, diamond, club, spade, heart, diamond, diamond, club, spade, heart, then got up, left the pistols on the table, shot the rifle targets correctly, then swept the shotgun targets left to right.

 

Shooter was told he earned a P on the pistol targets for not double tapping them, got kind of belligerent and said, "No, the instructions say to shoot them twice, I refuse to accept that penalty". OK, so we pointed out he didn't holster his pistols and take them with him, and he argued his way out of that one somehow, so it was pointed out he started on the wrong shotgun target, and he said, "No, you told me to start on the left". No, the stage instructions called for you to start with the suit on the left card (first card) in the hand. "No, I refuse to accept that penalty".

 

Anyway, three procedurals on one stage and rather than make a scene, the shooter was allowed to have his way. (After all, it's "just a monthly") Granted, it was more complicated than most scenarios, but the "stand, holster pistols, and move to rifle position" would have been hard to dispute. (I didn't hear how he got out of that one)

 

In hindsight, since I was shooting a .56-.50 Spencer carbine, a single shot shotgun, and warthog 255 grain black powder .45 pistol loads (FCGF category), maybe I should have said, "No, I refuse to accept that time. I'm handicapped by the equipment I chose to shoot today, so you'll take 45 seconds off my stage times to compensate for it because I'm capable of shooting better when I'm not screwing around."

This one is easy. Match director gets a MDQ for a way too complex and a tad unfair stage,

[Badlands Bob #61228]

One thing I've learned is to read the entire procedure thru and THEN go back and answer questions. That way if there is an argument later about what was said or explained, we can go straight to the stage instructions. Read a sentence and explain, answer questions, listen to comments etc is a good way to get lost and fail to read an important part of the stage. Especially a stage that is new, different or complicated.

[Pit Bull Tex]

I would just get the P and shoot away.I think it would be fun for everyone to take a P and have fun trying to shoot it right.I would be so lost shooting gunfighter ,when My guns stopped going bang I would put them up and I would go to the rifle and do the same thing and then the shotgun.It would be fun,you are with good friends and getting to play cowboy.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

That stage does sound like more of a memory test than a shooting test.

 

There are lots of ways to add variety without the luck and "instant" memory test.

 

Oh, and the guy sounds like an idiot, but hard to tell from a distance.

[Gus 'Buck' Silver]

This one is easy. Match director gets a MDQ for a way too complex and a tad unfair stage,

 

I'm new to the game and shot just my second match last weekend. I watched 3 counters miss a P on a very simple pattern that was the same for all shooters. I don't see how the counters could follow such complicated patterns that would change with each shooter. Even if there were only four or five patterns of cards, I believe that it would be too hard for the counters to keep track of what the correct pattern should be for each shooter. I agree with GCK, MDQ for the match director.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

...

Shooter was told he earned a P on the pistol targets for not double tapping them, got kind of belligerent and said, "No, the instructions say to shoot them twice, I refuse to accept that penalty". OK, so we pointed out he didn't holster his pistols and take them with him, and he argued his way out of that one somehow, so it was pointed out he started on the wrong shotgun target, and he said, "No, you told me to start on the left". No, the stage instructions called for you to start with the suit on the left card (first card) in the hand. "No, I refuse to accept that penalty".

 

Anyway, three procedurals on one stage and rather than make a scene, the shooter was allowed to have his way. (After all, it's "just a monthly") Granted, it was more complicated than most scenarios, but the "stand, holster pistols, and move to rifle position" would have been hard to dispute. (I didn't hear how he got out of that one)

 

...

 

Sounds more like one "P" (pistol targets engaged incorrectly) and a MSV (failure to holster pistols at the end of the shooting string)

...followed shortly by a MDQ (for unsportsmanlike/belligerent behavior).

The two components necessary for issuing a 30-second SOG penalty are very specific...& do NOT apply to being an argumentative jerk.

reference the RO1 "Penalty Overview" - pages 25-26

 

A shooter has the option to appeal a call, but there is no option to "...refuse to accept that penalty." if earned.

 

I can tell you from experience that allowing a shooter to dispute and/or bully his way out of legitimate penalties (rather than following the appeal procedure) is NOT the way to handle a situation such as this...even if it's "just a monthly".

All it does is encourage that type of behavior.

[Four Bucks #36386 Life]

I think the shooters behavior, not the complicated stage, is the issue here. If I were running the match, he could refuse to accept it in his mind...but it WOULD be on his score card.

 

Four Bucks

[Blastmaster]

Back to the original question....

 

The reputation of the club is at stake here. If there are out of town shooters at the match and they witness another shooter getting away with a gross penalty by arguing, then that would indicate that the club doesn't follow SASS rules. If they don't follow SASS rules (by the evidence of the bully 'not accepting the penalty') then what else does the club let slide and why bother coming back for another monthly or annual? A similar incident happened at a club I belong to where a shooter refused to take 23 misses on one stage and demanded and got a reshoot for that stage. There were displeased out of towners that had driven in excess of 200 round trip miles to attend that monthly.

 

Was it a complicated stage? Yes, but that is for another thread.

 

Blastmaster

[backshootin beauford mcgee]

I enjoy creative and new stages. If I mess up, take the penalty and go on. There is no place for rude behavior.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

We've all shot stages that sounded more like a square dance call than a shooting contest. BUT, at least for me, the answer is to simply accept that it ain't gonna be easy to remember (I generally will remark "Just gimme my "P" now"), relax abd SHOOT THE DURN STAGE. More often than not you'll get through it ok. If ya get a "P", SO WHAT? Yer not likely to be the only one who fails the memory test.....

 

IT IS NOT WORTH RUINING YER DAY.

[Mudflat Mike, SASS #20904]

Allowing an A-hole to bully his/her way out of a legitimate call will come back to haunt you.

It will only encourage them to do it every time a penalty is assessed and make the game alot less fun for the rest of us. If they break a rule, enforce the punishment.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Sounds more like one "P" (pistol targets engaged incorrectly) and a MSV (failure to holster pistols at the end of the shooting string)

How is leaving the pistols staged on the table a safety issue?

[Fairshake]

Palewolf, I was referring to the first line of the SOG on page 24. It is broad and may be understood in more than one way. From all the other moves by this shooter I think that he would shoot as he did by starting on the wrong card and direction to gain an advantage.His not holstering his revolvers is a definite advantage as that would require more time on the clock and be in his favor. That is not a p in my book but a SOG. I know it is open for debate. His open and offending manners is against all SASS rules. If he objected then the correct way is with a call for the match Director in a polite manner. I agree with you on all points and as I posted before this guy is not finished starting trouble until firm actions are taken.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

No matter how difficult it is to stand up to a bully, do it. I have personally experienced it's escalation in shooting and in camp. It took a while before some folks would listen to me. I do believe they wish they had much earlier.

 

You do not want it to get to that point. I'm not saying this guy is like the one we delt with. I am saying it is not healthy behavior and should be discouraged before it gets to be standard behavior for him/her and alienates the others.

 

Take the shooter aside at the next match and calmly explain the appropriate appeals process and potential penalties (MDQ) for bad behavior. Explain what he did that was unacceptable. Either the shooter will get the idea or quit shooting with you. It seems like a win-win to me.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

[Noz]

When you can lay the cards on the table for ready reference, I do not see this as too complicated.

I like the stage and would use it.

[BJT]

Two comments.

 

The TO and RO should learn to use the MD more effectively. The TO makes his best call. The shooter can be directed to the MD and he can deal appropriately with the shooter.

 

I have more than once told a shooter that appealing the call would not hurt my feelings at all and I would be happy to be overruled.

 

The second comment, I hope everyone had a chance to study the cards before the shooting started.

 

Very Best Regards,

BJT

[Utah Bob #35998]

Refuse to accept the penalty? Okay. Then I refuse to accept your registration for the next shoot.

[Indian Jack.]

How is leaving the pistols staged on the table a safety issue?

 

maybe they were thinking that the table was set back from the firing line and instead of leaving the pistols on the table and moving in front of them might constitute a safety issue to some...

I am still confused after reading that stage that I would have gone into it knowing that a P was about to be accessed...heck..have fun with it...shoot the targets safely and smile while doing it...This should be about having fun.

[Buckshot Frank]

I have a hard time understanding how someone could have three seperate mistakes on one stage and somehow feel wronged for getting a P. If the stage is too complicated than a lot of other people will get Ps also. How do you tell the other people who earned a P by just shooting one target in the wrong order that this jackhole wasn't given a P when he screwed it up much worse than them?

 

It's just a bad situation when people argue over trivial matters ruining everybody else's good times. Sure, he ended up getting his way; but he probably ruined everybody's day (including his own) and will probably not be welcome there again. Is that really worth a 10 second penalty?