An argument for full-power shotgun loads?

[Buckshot Frank]

I shoot Federal bulk shotgun loads. They are full-power (3 dram), 1 1/8 oz loads. I don't shoot them because I am a macho man; I shoot them because they are cheap (1/2 the price of the Featherlites) and they shuck out of my Stoeger without a problem. I know that the Featherlites can be shot quicker due to less recoil, but could there also be an advantage to the full power load? I would argue that the full-power load gives more room for error on knockdown targets. At last month's match, I know that I missed two shotgun targets, but I caught enough of the target that they still went down. It got me wondering if they would have still gone down had I been using light loads (*see Physics below) . I wouldn't think that shotgun misses would be that common, but I witnessed many people having to reload due to misses. If using a light load accounted for one extra miss that would have gone down with a heavier load; wouldn't the reload time eat up all of the time that was saved by faster follow-up shots?

 

I ask because I'm considering buying a shotshell press, but the cost isn't really worth it if I continue shooting the Federal bulk.

 

*Comparison of two loads

Federal multi-purpose: 1 1/8 oz at 1200 fps = 1350 PF (power factor number- I don't feel like converting units) Recalculated for actual power factor values in Post #14

Winchester Featherlite: 7/8 oz at 980 fps = 857.5 PF

 

If you miss and only hit a knockdown target with 1/4 of the load, the PF on target would be 337.5 for the full-power load and 214.375 for the light load. If the knockdown hypothetically takes a power factor of 300 to fall, the full-power load would still knock it down while the light load would not.

[Adirondack Jack, SASS #53440]

Yep, when ya shoot light loads, ya gotta point the gun where ya mean the shot to go. With hot loads you can get by with a little less precision. Now, that of course means if ya wanna be fast, ya still have to be GOOD.

[Shooting Bull]

At last month's match, I know that I missed two shotgun targets, but I caught enough of the target that they still went down.

 

 

Not arguing our point about full power loads BUT; if they went down, you didn't miss 'em.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Don't know where you shoot, but most shotgun knockdowns I've seen are set to go down with a center (revolver bullet) hit at about 60 to 100 PF. .38 special 158 grain bullet, 650 FPS would be 103 PF.

 

Could it be that tens of thousands of shooters shooting shotguns at our targets for about 30 years have found a sweet spot for their s/g loads now? Seems to be about what a Win low-noise, low-recoil (AKA featherlite) load is. There actually are a ton of folks in CAS who don't appreciate the recoil of a game load very much. Especially when we shoot them fast and out of a lighter-than-normal shotgun, perhaps even a SxS with a stock that drops several inches and tends to be kinda punishing.

 

Your SxS is unusual if it cleanly shucks steel-head ribbed cheap hulls all the time. MOST do not. That is why Rem STS and Win AA shells/hulls are also a sweet spot.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Uncle Joe]

I shoot a Parker with 28 inch barrels or a Parker with 32 inch barrels loaded with 1 0z of 2f black powder and 1oz of # 8 shot. when I do my job I have no problem knocking down anything..I used to hunt with both guns, same load with #6 shot, not many birds got away from me..

[Barterin Bill]

I shoot feather lites. I bought up a bunch when they had the $2 rebate. I've got reloading equip and will reload when I get low. If the bulk loads shuck good, I'd keep shooting them. I'm not real fast and haven't been shooting too long, but I've never had a SG target fail to fall with FL. I think it's a personal preference like everything else in this sport. Shoot what you like. I don't think the recoil makes much difference.

[Griff]

Here's another case where it doesn't have to be "ONE OR T'OTHER"! They've got nice happy medium loads that shoot quite well, 1oz @ around 1100fps. And it ain't necessarily the velocity that knocks them targets down... it's weight! Yep, that 1-1/8 just might put more shot on the target that a 7/8oz load, and take it down whether your shot leaves the muzzle at 1200fps or 980fps!

 

Sorry, I don't buy into that argument. And I never worry about missin' a SG knock-down... just gives me an excuse to shoot again, then reload another hull! Life's a circle... we get out of it what we put in!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Depending on the shooter and if he/she is having a good or bad day, either could work out just as well as the other.

 

Example:

 

On my 97, My shot splits are usually at or below .50 using AA Featherlites, #8 shot.

 

When I use those cheaper (less costly) value pack shells, my splits are about .60 - .65.

 

A GOOD reload for me is about 1.10 seconds (back down to the belt and back up to fire). A normal reload is about 1.25 seconds.

 

Here's the clincher for me and its why I prefer the AA Featherlites. Running at speed, the recoil of those heavier loads will actually cause me to miss more often. I get a higher percentage of hits with the Featherlites.

 

PLUS, those aluminum based loads tend to not eject as well as the brass based Featherlites.

 

Soooo, all in all, if I'm having a good day, those Featherlites will keep me runnin with anyone.

When I'm having a not so good day, ain't nothing short of a street sweeper will help me out.

 

I prefer the Featherlites. Real fast and real smooth.

 

..........Widder

[Utah Bob #35998]

What Griff said.

[jimmyb.1]

I totally agree w/ you on the factory loads. I use the green Rem "shooters club" boxes in 12G on my 26" Stoeger.

 

1) I priced it out to reload vs buy SG shells and decided it was one aspect that I didn't need to learn and deal with. Maybe there's a savings now if raw materials are purchased in bulk but it was not the case for me when I was checking prices. I do reload my .38's and various other calibers.

 

2) At least once per shoot I witness a SG knock down target that gets hit by a lightly reloaded SG load and does not fall down. Add the time to reload another shell and then knock it down with a strike toward the top of the knock down and there is some time being used. It's not uncommon for me to see someone take 3 or 4 hits on a target to knock it down w/ their reloads. My walmart ammo knocks the target flat usually even if I hit the toe. I do realize that fully loaded ammo would kick more on a shorter coach gun which would be a drawback. I realize each clubs SG targets are different both is style and mass.

 

3) Like in NASCAR, the best time to pass someone is when they are sitting in the pits. That's pretty much how I feel if I can hit my SG targets and someone is having to reload due to lightly loaded shells.

jb

[Willy Whiskers]

I'm in the "what's on sale" catagory. Admittedly I'm no gamer and the time lost in recoil doesn't matter to me. My SXS is well padded and my '97 has a full length barrel so there is a lot of mass to move. I like the Federals mentioned earlier and they slip out of the SXS easily. I ran into a big sale on Win Super X a while ago and bought a bunch of them. They shoot fine, but I found an interesting problem. The are 6 fold cripped instead of the 8 fold crip in other shells. What happens because of this is they unfold widely into the chamber so they don't slip out of the SXS at all. This means I just shoot them out of the 97 which mechanically ejects the round. WW

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

If they're cheap to buy, you can put up with the recoil and you don't want to reload, then go for it. But as others have said, that much power just isn't necessary. Kinda like using a sledge hammer to drive a nail.

[Madd Mike #8595]

full power loads and ya gotta include 10 guage

well?

they can shorten the life of targets (even really good one)

and (bounce back up on some targets) calibration is hard for full out ten g

 

but

if its within the rules

then

its yer choice in

[Buckshot Frank]

Don't know where you shoot, but most shotgun knockdowns I've seen are set to go down with a center (revolver bullet) hit at about 60 to 100 PF. .38 special 158 grain bullet, 650 FPS would be 103 PF.

 

Could it be that tens of thousands of shooters shooting shotguns at our targets for about 30 years have found a sweet spot for their s/g loads now? Seems to be about what a Win low-noise, low-recoil (AKA featherlite) load is. There actually are a ton of folks in CAS who don't appreciate the recoil of a game load very much. Especially when we shoot them fast and out of a lighter-than-normal shotgun, perhaps even a SxS with a stock that drops several inches and tends to be kinda punishing.

 

Your SxS is unusual if it cleanly shucks steel-head ribbed cheap hulls all the time. MOST do not. That is why Rem STS and Win AA shells/hulls are also a sweet spot.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

My power factor numbers are only for comparing the two loads. I got lazy with the math and didn't convert ounces of shot to grains . Now that you provided what power factor it takes to knoch down a target, it is worth looking at:

 

Full-power load = 492 grains at 1200 fps = 590 PF

Light load = 383 grains at 980 fps = 375 PF

 

Now we can see that if it takes 100 PF to knock down a target, a quartering shot of the light load will fall just short.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

.

 

PLUS, those aluminum based loads tend to not eject as well as the brass based Featherlites.

 

 

Widder,

Those hulls that look like they are aluminum are not, but instead steel. They have an aluminum looking wash on the steel to help retard rust, that makes them look like aluminum, but they are not. Check them with a magnet, and you will see.

 

Brass bases expand when they are under pressure, and then retract somewhat when the pressure falls off, making them extract easily. Steel expands under pressure, but doesn't retract hardly any when the pressure falls off. Therein lies the difference.

 

RBK

[Marshal Harland Wolff, SASS #5019]

If I miss, I deserve the extra time it takes to load and shoot again...it's my penalty for being sloppy. Power should never be used to make up for precision. Should I give a patient too much drug to compensate for me being lazy and not wanting to calculate the correct dose? I think not.

 

But some call me strange.

 

HW

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Frank,

 

I used to shoot very hot loads on occasion. They really shocked unsuspecting TOs. Once I shot a whole annual match with them. I had the worst neck ache ever after that match.

 

I'd still use them on occasion until I broke my arm.I haven't used them since.

 

I think I'm just getting too fragile for such foolishness.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Don't know where you shoot, but most shotgun knockdowns I've seen are set to go down with a center (revolver bullet) hit at about 60 to 100 PF. .38 special 158 grain bullet, 650 FPS would be 103 PF.

 

Around here our shotgun knock down targets are completely different than a pistol knockdown target. I have never tried hitting a shotgun target with a pistol, but I doubt if ours would do down with a center hit of a 38. I'll have to try that sometime. I have clobbered a few pistol targets with the shotgun, just for fun, and boy do they go down.

 

Regardless, I pretty much agree with Griff. Except it ain't the weight of the shot that knocks down the target, it is the force the shot exerts that knocks it down. Petty ain't I?

 

It only stands to reason, all other things being equal, that if you hit the target with more pellets, you will deliver more force. It also stands to reason that if you hit the target with the same number of pellets, but they are moving faster, you will again deliver more force to the target.

 

I shoot a lot of Trap (I know, completely different subject) and I always load my Trap shells with 1 1/8 ounces of #8 or #7 with a 2 3/4 dram equivalent load. Some of the guys use the 3 dram loads available inexpensively at the Big Box stores. Those loads punish me just a little bit too much after 4 rounds of Trap (100 shots). So I stick to my 2 3/4 dram 1 1/8 ounce loads. On the other hand, I know a lot of AA shooters who consistently shoot better than me with 2 3/4 dram 1 ounce loads. But I don't know anybody who shoots Trap with Feather Lite loads. Ya gotta put enough pellets in the air so that the target does not find a hole in the target.

 

The same can be said for CAS. Ya gotta put enough pellets on the target that are moving fast enough to knock down the target. CAS ain't like Trap in one more aspect. In Trap, ya gotta actually break a piece of the target for it to be considered a hit. Raising dust off without breaking off a visible chip is counted as a miss. In CAS, with a standing shotgun target, it don't matter how many pellets you put on the target. If ya hit it with just one pellet, and the spotters see it hit, it is a hit.

 

But knock downs are another story. There ya gotta obey the rules of physics and put enough lead on the target to knock it down. If your aim is off, or if your load is too light, or if your pattern is too wide, or for any other reason ya don't get enough pellets on the target moving fast enough to knock it down, ya gotta shoot at it again.

 

I completely understand the reasoning behind going with Feather Lites if you are trying to be really fast. But I frequently see posts by new shooters asking for where they can find Feather Lites, or asking for load data, and I have to wonder if they have really tried anything else.

 

My own CAS load is a bit less than 2 1/2 drams of Black Powder behind 1 1/8 ounces of shot. Fired from my cylinder bore Stevens hammer double. No choke at all. This means I am throwing a lot of lead, but it ain't moving real fast. Even so, I can't remember the last time I had to shoot twice at a knockdown. So even with my cylinder bores and fairly light powder load, somehow I manage to get enough pellets on the target most of the time to knock it down.

 

Maybe because I am actually taking a split second to aim??????

 

P.S. Please don't give me that baloney about ya don't aim a shotgun. This ain't Trap. If ya wanta hit the target, ya aim.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

oops. Stupid Double Tap

[Anvil Al #59168]

Don't like those heavy loads. Over kill.

Don't like Feather Lites either.

So guess I am a middle man.

 

STS Extra Light Targets. 2 3/4 dram, 1oz shot.

And this is how I got my reload set up.

Wife even likes them.

 

When I get lazy and don't have any loaded.

Can not find the Extra Light Targets at the store.

Then I go with Light Target. Which is the same. But with 1 1/8oz shot.

 

But when going to a big match. I also have a few. Super-Handicap loads with me.

For any that look very sticky. They are 1 1/8oz shot. But at 1250FPS.

But this one box has lasted 4 years and I still have 1/2 a box left.

So don't use/need them very often.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

A lot of us is old, I hope to be there someday.

A lot of us is women, I hope not to be there someday.

A few of us is little skinny kids, I was there once and still have one.

Shotguns are the worst of the guns we shoot for punishment on a person. I load 7/8 oz loads for me and the 3/4 oz Youth load for my daughter. That, and being sure the shotgun fits her are the only reason she will shoot. Usually see the wad bounce off of the target when she shoots. She works the 97 quicker than I work my double some times.

It falls down to the idea of going slow enough to hit what you aim at.

If you reload, and I do, the reduced loads make a 25 pound bag of shot go further.

[Marshal Max Henry]

I shoot regular loads because thats what they shot in the old days but when i think about it??? Are the smokless loads as powerful or comparable to the BP loads back then?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I shoot regular loads because thats what they shot in the old days but when i think about it??? Are the smokless loads as powerful or comparable to the BP loads back then?

Smokeless loads can match and exceed any BP loads "from the day". Rarely does any shooter blast off more than a 3 dram, 1 1/8 ounce load at a CAS match. That load and more was commonly manufactured in the 1800's.

 

Since SASS is not a historical reenactment (think this is not the first time this has ever been mentioned), I don't really get the drift here.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Marshal Max Henry]

Smokeless loads can match and exceed any BP loads "from the day". Rarely does any shooter blast off more than a 3 dram, 1 1/8 ounce load at a CAS match. That load and more was commonly manufactured in the 1800's.

 

Since SASS is not a historical reenactment (think this is not the first time this has ever been mentioned), I don't really get the drift here.

 

Good luck, GJ

The Drift was....Are smokeless powder loads equivelant in power as a Black Powder load.

Thanks for answering my Question Pard.

[J-BAR #18287]

IMHO, more shotgun misses are due to guns being choked too tightly than to underpowered loads. A pattern that is fist sized at 10 steps is easier to miss with than one that opens quickly to dinner plate size. Any decently centered load including a buckaroo's 410 should do the job on a knockdown at CAS distances.

[Max Doolin, SASS #53631]

My shoulder hurts just readin about it.............

[Marshal Chance Morgun]

You just gave me an idea. I wonder how many inches of snow I can clear off the driveway with a blast from the old SxS

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

My power factor numbers are only for comparing the two loads. I got lazy with the math and didn't convert ounces of shot to grains . Now that you provided what power factor it takes to knoch down a target, it is worth looking at:

 

Full-power load = 492 grains at 1200 fps = 590 PF

Light load = 383 grains at 980 fps = 375 PF

 

Now we can see that if it takes 100 PF to knock down a target, a quartering shot of the light load will fall just short.

 

Howdy BF

At the club I regularly shoot, the shotgun KD's are the Handle Bar Doc version (small diamond sits on the ground) I see these a lot around these parts. We also use them as a pistol KD and they will go down (when set on level ground) with my normal pistol round (125 gr at about 800 FPS) with a center to high hit. (pistol PF = 100)

My SG loads are 1 oz at about 1000 FPS. If I have a KD stay up it is because I clean missed the thing. A quartering shot would still have plenty of oomph to take it down, so if I do my part, the target is gonna go down. (SG PF = 437)

I would consider these to be a fairly light load as far as SG go.

If I thought the KD was going to be really hard to knock down I would simply take a split second and aim.

YMMV

 

Regards

 

 

Gateway Kid

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

I shoot Federal bulk shotgun loads. They are full-power (3 dram), 1 1/8 oz loads. I don't shoot them because I am a macho man; I shoot them because they are cheap (1/2 the price of the Featherlites)

Me Too!....I also get the Remington Gun Club loads.....

 

I don't feel like I give up any speed using them......FL's feel weird now when I shoot them........

 

Stan - who likes cheap shotgun shells.....of course cheap is a relative term.

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

IMHO, more shotgun misses are due to guns being choked too tightly than to underpowered loads. A pattern that is fist sized at 10 steps is easier to miss with than one that opens quickly to dinner plate size. Any decently centered load including a buckaroo's 410 should do the job on a knockdown at CAS distances.

Strange, I noticed that most shotgun misses are caused by the shooter just not aiming .

 

Seriously, I've been using a 10 gauge with a full choke and 32 inch barrels since about 2000 and the only thing I've ever missed with a shotgun have been flying clays. And that's with a pattern at normal CAS ranges about the size of my hand.

 

Knockdowns or stationary steel plates are easy enough to hit if you bother to find the front bead and put it in somewhere in the middle 1/3 of the plate before yanking back on the booger picker. I took the time to know where my gun shoots with the load I use and I can hit a plate at the top, bottom or middle if I so desire by just actually AIMING accordingly.

 

The other big issue, especially with new BP shotgun shooters, is not patterning the load to see WHERE and how it is hitting. Bunches of new BP shooters get caught up with the idea of getting to use a BUNCH of powder instead of tiny pinches of smokeless and their patterns look like doughnuts because they have too heavy a powder charge and blow the middle out of the pattern with the wads. In that case, actually aiming dead center is gonna be a waste because you don't have enough lead hitting the target to do any good.

[Buck D. Law, SASS #62183]

I can shoot the factory (cheap) loads as fast as the light ones and did so until Sugah started shooting. She doesn't flinch if she shoots a full power shell, but when she does, the posse turns and looks at me with a scowl that says, "I bet you beat her when we're not looking." Sooooo, I started loading for her and since I'm loading for her, I also load for myself and after doing so for a while, I can say that while I might be as fast with a factory load, it is a pleasure to shoot a Featherlite equivalent load. The big plus is I don't get the scowling looks from the posse.

[Kid Drover]

Hey Buck, The possee still scowls at you, you just got so good at shooting those two pistols at the same time, they won't let you see those scowls...... )... On a "lighter" note, I started loading "down" cuz my side by side kept cutting into my middle finger with the trigger guard. I filed the metal as smooth as I could, wrapped leather around the metal and it still kept cutting into my middle finger. That was totally unacceptable. It "cut" into my ability to communicate with other drivers on the Kentucky interstate systems. I only like shooting full loads at ducks and geese. YEE-HAW! Mountain Drover

[Long Jim Hancock]

I shoot a 12 ga. feather-light clone load I reload on my MEC....

it ALWAYS knocks down the KD's if I aim correctly...

I am happy shooting a light load that's cheeper than store-bought bargain loads.

Re-loading shotgun shells is way easy.

 

I once found some of my older re-loads, and didn't realize that the shot had fallen out, and knocked DOWN several fallers with just the wads.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

I shoot regular loads because thats what they shot in the old days but when i think about it??? Are the smokless loads as powerful or comparable to the BP loads back then?

 

Howdy

 

When I first started shooting shotguns it was common to see the Dram Equiv marking on the box. That's what we are talking about when we say 2 3/4 drams or 3 drams, etc. Dram Equivalency was a way to directly compare Smokeless loads to Black Powder loads. There are 16 ounces to a pound and there are 16 drams to an ounce. There are 7000 grains to a pound, so there are 437.5 grains in an ounce, and 27.34375 grains in a dram. Let's round it off to 27.5 just to make the math easier. A 2 3/4 Dram Equiv 1 1/8 ounce Smokeless load will have enough Smokeless powder in it to duplicate the velocity achieved by 1 1/8 ounces of lead propelled by 2 3/4 drams of Black Powder (roughly 75 grains of BP). You can do the math for a 3 dram load. So, that was a direct comparison of a modern Smokeless shotgun load to a BP load. Unfortunately, it is becoming less and less common to see Dram Equivalent numbers on boxes of shotgun shells anymore. More and more often today manufacturers are simply printing labels like Target Load or Light Target Load or Feather Lite, or something like that and have stopped using the old system of Dram Equivalency.

 

I can tell you that Winchester and Remington STS Light Target Loads exactly duplicate 2 3/4 Dram Equiv loads, because I have been loading them for years. If you look in most shotgun loading tables, many still list loads by Dram Equivalency. If you want a 2 3/4 DE load, you simply look up the data that way.

[J-BAR #18287]

Strange, I noticed that most shotgun misses are caused by the shooter just not aiming .

 

With a bigger pattern, you don't have to aim quite so fine.

 

Seriously, I've been using a 10 gauge with a full choke and 32 inch barrels since about 2000 and the only thing I've ever missed with a shotgun have been flying clays. And that's with a pattern at normal CAS ranges about the size of my hand.

 

You make my point beautifully...with a bigger pattern you would not miss those clays. And you really should not have to "benchrest" a 10 gauge to be sure the knockdowns go down.