Another starting position question

[Shooting Bull]

"At the ready"  What is that?  The common description I've heard is hands hovering over whichever gun(s) you're going to start with but not touching.  Okay, that seems pretty simple.  But, what if you're starting with the shotgun?  Can one hand be hovering over the shotgun and the other over your shells? 

 

Or even worse, is the common description I've heard completely wrong.  If so, back to the original question.  What is "at the ready"? 

[Crisco]

It means whatever that specific match director says it means.  In the case of EOT at Ben Avery, it means any postion you want as long as you are not touching guns or ammo.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

ATR = Hovering over or by, not touching, guns or ammo.  So, yep,  shotgun at the ready can be one hand over the gun and other over/near shotshells.

 

good luck, GJ

[G W Wade]

Have you forgotten or ignored the SASS default position?   Thought that was supposed to clear up starting positions of hovering or odd starting position.     GW

[Tn Tombstone]

At the ready means different things at different clubs. At the ready can mean anyway you want to hold the gun or start the stage.

The hovering we call GAP, or "gamey as possible,"

SASS default is used when no starting position is given or as a starting position in stage instructions.

This should be covered in the walk through to make sure everyone is on the same page.

[Shooting Bull]

36 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

Have you forgotten or ignored the SASS default position?   Thought that was supposed to clear up starting positions of hovering or odd starting position.     GW

 

 

Not at all.  As Tn Tombstone correctly pointed out, SASS default is used when no starting position instructions are given.  

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

When I first read "At Ready" in Posse Marshall info I had to ask for clarification since around our area it often means gun in hand, or hands (if stated in plural).  I was informed that it was in regards to body position and hands not torching guns.  I will now assume that at other matches unless there is addition to wording such as "At Ready, gun in hand or hands", or "At ready, hand or hands touching gun flat on table",   

As mentioned, I also think the command is to be over-ride of SASS default.  I certainly favor this in stage writing and appreciated it at EOT.   TT, GAP is fun, maybe more so for us shorter folks.

IMO, if stated "in hand" then that means one hand could be on shells if stating with shotgun.  If flat on table is not mentioned then I assume long gun can be to shoulder.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

3 hours ago, Crisco said:

It means whatever that specific match director says it means.  In the case of EOT at Ben Avery, it means any postion you want as long as you are not touching guns or ammo.

 

At Wartrace we use “At Shooters Discretion “ which means exactly as you said above. Any position you want as long as you’re not touching guns or ammo.

 

Randy

[Shooting Bull]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

IMO, if stated "in hand" then that means one hand could be on shells if stating with shotgun.  If flat on table is not mentioned then I assume long gun can be to shoulder.

 

 

Annnnnnnnd there's ANOTHER question.  I think it was EOT two years ago the starting position was shotgun in handS. It was made abundantly clear that meant if either hand let go of the gun, the other had to still be holding it.  You could not have one hand on the gun and the other on shells. 

[Tn Tombstone]

I see a lot of SG in hands, lots of folks lay the fore-stock on the back of their hand. Technically both hands are touching the gun however our partners in Florida wrote in "SG in hands the way you will shoot it." Kind of interesting twist.

Unless specifically stated SASS Conventions keep us from touching shells.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Rifle at the ready.

 

For me. Ready is on the shoulder pointed at the target. 

There. 

I'm ready. 

 

If that's not what you want.

Then say it in the instructions. 

[Rattlesnake Slim]

Straight out of the EOT 2024 Shooter's Book:

 

End of Trail Shooters! We have an "End of Trail Only" stage convention that is important for you to know regarding shooter "stance". Our stage language "At The Ready" means, if no starting position is given the shooter may be in an athletic "ready" posture, with hands not touching guns or ammo. The shooter does not have to start a stage stranding upright with hands at their sides unless specifically stated in the stage description. Other stance instructions will always apply (hands at low surrender, touching revolvers, Rifle in Hand, etc...). This convention applies at End of Trail Only and does not change SASS rules at other SASS sanctioned matches.

[Shooting Bull]

15 minutes ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:

Straight out of the EOT 2024 Shooter's Book:

 

End of Trail Shooters! We have an "End of Trail Only" stage convention that is important for you to know regarding shooter "stance". Our stage language "At The Ready" means, if no starting position is given the shooter may be in an athletic "ready" posture, with hands not touching guns or ammo. The shooter does not have to start a stage stranding upright with hands at their sides unless specifically stated in the stage description. Other stance instructions will always apply (hands at low surrender, touching revolvers, Rifle in Hand, etc...). This convention applies at End of Trail Only and does not change SASS rules at other SASS sanctioned matches.

 

 

One of these years I should outta start reading that thing. 

[Rattlesnake Slim]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

One of these years I should outta start reading that thing. 

 

We even put pictures in it this year!

[SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER]

2 hours ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

Rifle at the ready.

 

For me. Ready is on the shoulder pointed at the target. 

There. 

I'm ready. 

 

If that's not what you want.

Then say it in the instructions. 

That bit a posse at EOT a few years ago that a friend of mine was on. They started with rifle on shoulder, at the ready, Lassiter came thru and saw it....nope, everyone has to reshoot the stage or take a P.

[Anvil Al #59168]

2 hours ago, SGT. ELI 35882 GUNFIGHTER said:

That bit a posse at EOT a few years ago that a friend of mine was on. They started with rifle on shoulder, at the ready, Lassiter came thru and saw it....nope, everyone has to reshoot the stage or take a P.

 

 

Then make it clear what you want.

Because as you can see.

Different places are doing it different ways. 

 

And everywhere around here.

Rifle at the ready is with it on shoulder pointed at target.

Edited March 11 by Anvil Al #59168

[KingSnake]

2 hours ago, Rattlesnake Slim said:

 

We even put pictures in it this year!

And one of those pictures is me 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

12 hours ago, Anvil Al #59168 said:

 

 

Then make it clear what you want.

Because as you can see.

Different places are doing it different ways. 

 

And everywhere around here.

Rifle at the ready is with it on shoulder pointed at target.

it was made VERY CLEAR in the Posse Marshal walk thru at EOT that year. 

 

Stan

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Ya know if only there was written instructions about this kind of stuff for a particular match that may be different from what other clubs do. Maybe put a collection of them into a pamphlet so each shooter could have their own copy, I don’t know, make it part of the shooter packet. Then clarify with the PM’s at the walkthrough so they can answer when questions come up and try to keep things consistent. Or the match officials could have a mandatory briefing to point out local quirks that only apply at that range as is done around the country all the time. 
Just some ideas. 
oh they did all that, never mind. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

 

Suspenders off the shoulders

Trousers Un-buttoned

Poised over the seat

Door closed and Latched

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

1 hour ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

oh they did all that, never mind. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

yep.  good job.  Pre-match Q/A for PMs covered it well.

[Assassin]

2 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Ya know if only there was written instructions about this kind of stuff for a particular match that may be different from what other clubs do. Maybe put a collection of them into a pamphlet so each shooter could have their own copy, I don’t know, make it part of the shooter packet. Then clarify with the PM’s at the walkthrough so they can answer when questions come up and try to keep things consistent. Or the match officials could have a mandatory briefing to point out local quirks that only apply at that range as is done around the country all the time. 
Just some ideas. 
oh they did all that, never mind. 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

Just because it's written doesn't mean folks read it. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Lazy stage writing can bring up all kinds of what-ifs. State what you want the shooter to be doing before and after the beep. Ambiguity after the timer goes off is meant for shooters to have choices, but if you intend something specific to be done(or something to NOT be done) then spell it out and make sure the posse marshals understand. And the "back-handed" shotgun start always cracks me up.

Edited March 12 by The Rainmaker, SASS #11631

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

47 minutes ago, Assassin said:

Just because it's written doesn't mean folks read it. 

My point exactly! Yet here they had not one but two separate backups to the book and still some struggled. 
I have not written thousands of stages as some have but I have written hundreds for sure. Acknowledging that I am not as skilled as those guys I can tell you something you already know, there has never been a complete match written, (that I have seen) that doesn’t generate some questions as to what the stage writer intended. And that is after proofreading and editing sometimes by a second or even third person. Sometimes those questions are legitimate, sometimes a lawyer simply has to pick something apart and sometimes it’s the old standby of “that’s not how we do it at home”!

I am quite certain that stage writers give it their best, but sometimes what they intended doesn’t translate well in the written word. Hence we have safety/informational briefs and PM walkthroughs to try and work through things before stuff happens! 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

[Assassin]

3 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

My point exactly! Yet here they had not one but two separate backups to the book and still some struggled. 
I have not written thousands of stages as some have but I have written hundreds for sure. Acknowledging that I am not as skilled as those guys I can tell you something you already know, there has never been a complete match written, (that I have seen) that doesn’t generate some questions as to what the stage writer intended. And that is after proofreading and editing sometimes by a second or even third person. Sometimes those questions are legitimate, sometimes a lawyer simply has to pick something apart and sometimes it’s the old standby of “that’s not how we do it at home”!

I am quite certain that stage writers give it their best, but sometimes what they intended doesn’t translate well in the written word. Hence we have safety/informational briefs and PM walkthroughs to try and work through things before stuff happens! 
Regards

    

Gateway Kid

Stage conventions should cover most questions. Pistols holstered should be a convention, no need to include the verbiage in the scenario. Shoot position convention should state one foot behind the plane of table or prop. We could reduce the stage write up and simplify match rules. Yes, conventions would have to be read to posse marshals before walk thru's. Typically, less is more.

[wyliefoxEsquire]

On 3/11/2024 at 8:18 AM, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

wording such as "At Ready, gun in hand or hands

The phrase "in hand" is defined to mean you have control of the item, under control.  The number of hands in not defined.  

I would suggest that using the phrase "in hand" without additional information is not a good choice.

Ex. most all of the time all the firearms at the start of the stage are "in hand" (under control), regardless of where the hands are located.

 

YES I do understand the intent.  Realistically there are those who are always looking for an advantage that works for them.

[Griff]

IMNSHO, "At the Ready" should always be interpreted as firearm in hand and shouldered or whatever position the competitor feels is most "ready" ... but... since it is not an official SASS starting position, match directors are allowed to impose whatever conditions their devious little minds decide on.  

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:40 PM, Assassin said:

Stage conventions should cover most questions. Pistols holstered should be a convention, no need to include the verbiage in the scenario. Shoot position convention should state one foot behind the plane of table or prop. We could reduce the stage write up and simplify match rules. Yes, conventions would have to be read to posse marshals before walk thru's. Typically, less is more.

With all due respect - this is not aimed at you specifically; but this mindset is the ROOT cause of almost all the issues.

 

Laziness in stage writing led to the creation of "Stage Conventions".

Lazy stage writing has led to the trend toward trying to overly shorten directions and omitting pertinent information.

 

The stage writers "job" is to convey the information, "ALL THE INFORMATION", necessary to allow multiple shooters to perform the same actions in a safe and consistent manner.

There is no prize for brevity.

Ink is cheap and electrons are free.

There is no cost penalty for a few extra letters (or even forbid; extra sentences).

And I fully contend - those extra letters or sentences MORE than pay for themselves by the elimination of questions at stage read and shooters errors/ frustration on the firing line.

 

Less is more...

No, no it is not.

If you want people to do things in a consistent manner - to do those things thoroughly and completely.

You have to provide clear, thorough instructions that define your expectations.

 

The rules of clear communication have not changed - who, what, where, when and how (and to what extent).

What has changed is lazy stage writers have decided that "the shooter should already know this" so I don't have to write it.

(kinda glad heart surgeon teachers and jet pilot instructors don't subscribe to this theory)

 

I loved writing stages - and I wrote good stages.

I took great pride in my stages/ matches because I took great effort in making those stages/ matches the very best I could.

I analyzed EVERY single stage I have ever written from the viewpoint of a lefty AND from a righty.

From the viewpoint of a BP shooter AND from smokeless.

From the viewpoint of a Duelist, a Gunfighter AND a supported shooter.

And after the steel was set; looked at everything AGAIN from the viewpoint of a tall shooter AND a short one to ensure every variable was considered and addressed - and changes noted, made and communicated as needed.

 

I do not understand the mindset of someone that wants to write stages and then whines that "It's too many letters" and too much work, so they cannot be bothered to write them completely.

Edited March 14 by Creeker, SASS #43022

[Assassin]

3 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

With all due respect - this is not aimed at you specifically; but this mindset is the ROOT cause of almost all the issues.

 

Laziness in stage writing led to the creation of "Stage Conventions".

Lazy stage writing has led to the trend toward trying to overly shorten directions and omitting pertinent information.

 

The stage writers "job" is to convey the information, "ALL THE INFORMATION", necessary to allow multiple shooters to perform the same actions in a safe and consistent manner.

There is no prize for brevity.

Ink is cheap and electrons are free.

There is no cost penalty for a few extra letters (or even forbid; extra sentences).

And I fully contend - those extra letters or sentences MORE than pay for themselves by the elimination of questions at stage read and shooyers errors/ frustration on the firing line.

 

Less is more...

No, no it is not.

If you want people to do things in a consistent manner - to do those things thoroughly and completely.

You have to provide clear, thorough instructions that define your expectations.

 

The rules of clear communication have not changed - who, what, where, whenande how (and to what extent).

What has changed is lazy stage writers have decided that "the shooter should already know this" so I don't have to write it.

(kinda glad heart surgeon teachers and jet pilot instructors don't subscribe to this theory)

 

I loved writing stages - and I wrote good stages.

I took great pride in my stages/ matches because I took great effort in making those stages/ matches the very best I could.

I analyzed EVERY single stage I have ever written from the viewpoint of a lefty AND from a righty.

From the viewpoint of a BP shooter AND from smokeless.

From the viewpoint of a Duelist, a Gunfighter AND a supported shooter.

And after the steel was set; looked at everything AGAIN from the viewpoint of a tall shooter AND a short one to ensure every variable was considered and addressed - and changes noted, made and communicated as needed.

 

I do not understand the mindset of someone that wants to write stages and then whines that "It's too many letters" and too much work, so they cannot be bothered to write them completely.

I'm talking about redundancies like pistols holstered, etc.

If instructions state place rifle at position 2 do I need to repeat, shoot rifle targets from position 2 when the rifle targets are right in front of that position. I'm long over the brevity, I just go to a match to shoot and bs with a couple friends. The fun ran out for myself, wife, and other's when everything turned into drag race shooting. Same with stage writing, I just want to see the bare bone description with simplicity. You need to come shoot Hell On Wheels and we'll  discuss this and other topics. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

I'm long over the brevity, I just go to a match to shoot and bs with a couple friends. The fun ran out for myself, wife, and other's when everything turned into drag race shooting. Same with stage writing, I just want to see the bare bone description with simplicity. You need to come shoot Hell On Wheels and we'll  discuss this and other topics. 

Different shooters have differing desires.

I go to shoots to compete - and to do under as equal of conditions as possible.

I personally don't go to shoots to bs, socialize or visit.

I have a very simple policy; if I don't enjoy the shoot - I don't return.

 

If the match is poorly written, the expectations poorly communicated and the match lacks consistent (shooter to shooter, posse to possee) standards because of poorly communicated instructions - then we are not competing in a like manner.

And I'm insulted that my time was wasted by folks that expect me to pay for, suffer thru and then be positive about their lack of effort.

 

I am very open about only attending shoots that I believe I will enjoy - stylistically and operationally.  I would rather stay home than shoot a match that is disagreeable - and since I am not there for the people; I can appraise the event based solely on the event.

 

I firmly believe that repeatedly patronizing shoots that don't satisfy your desires only leads to being served more of the same.